The Mindstream is DEAD!! I'm getting mine soon!

[road_runner]

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/lab-grade-dissolved-oxygen-probe-neptune-systems.html
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/dissolved-oxygen-module-pm3-neptune-systems.html

$700 probe, $95 module.

Omg WHY!!
Its 299$ and do not require a module....
Anyway, never seen the 700$ prob before good lord lol

 

[Jeff_H]

I understand the “clarification”. Their website and marketing materials still say “Subscription plans start at $34.95/month and will be purchased within the MindStream web app after you have received your monitor.” yes, it’s technically correct, but they don’t clarify it unless you buy one and then you find out that you either have to pay $5 a month more, or trust an unproven company with $40o upfront and hope they last 12 months to get all the disks. Adobe offers a year’s subscription to photoshop at $20.99/month on their website. You don’t click on it and find out that it’s actually $25/month unless you prepay the full year when you are checking out. The bait and switch that mindstream is using regarding their service plan is shady at best.

Major credit card companies don’t allow companies to charge customers until a product ships. When you pre-order these, are they charging your card immediately and then delaying shipment for 6-8 weeks?

Good question... Yes - I just checked my CC statement and they did charge me. I assumed they would when I ordered it and don't care as I was more concerned about getting on the waiting list based on my current experience with the Trident.

Regarding the bait-and-switch, I agree they could be more transparent with what the cost will be on their main website, that's why I emailed them to clarify right after I placed my order. Their website also states you have a 45-day from installation or 60 days from shipping to get your money back. Also, I don't think Adobe is a fair example since Photoshop has been around since like 1987 or 1988. I just checked Adobe's website and they now only appear to offer a monthly subscription. Should I be upset that I can't just purchase an end-user license? So is MindStream entirely misleading and shady??? You could be right, or again, they could just be behind after deciding to moved they launch date up by several months. I do recall watching a tradeshow video interviewing them earlier this year where they expected to ship at the end of this year. If I'm right, the're just scrambling to get it out the door. If not, I'm screwed, but I hope I will figure it out before they ship mine so I can cancel my order. At this point, I choose to believe they have good intentions and are just not ready for "prime time". I also agree with your healthy dose of skepticism and I'm keeping an eye on them. ;Peeking

 

[Paul Sands]

Good question... Yes - I just checked my CC statement and they did charge me.

They charged you and you won’t see the product for 6-8 weeks? So by the time you get it, your time to dispute charges will have lapsed. If it doesn’t work, you’ll basically have no recourse with your credit card company.

This company is slimy.

 

[road_runner]

They charged you and you won’t see the product for 6-8 weeks? So by the time you get it, your time to dispute charges will have lapsed. If it doesn’t work, you’ll basically have no recourse with your credit card company.

This company is slimy.

Come on I do not think its thay. The company have loads of funding. Just released s new product, do you think they are trying to scam someone for couple thousands?

 

[bluprntguy]

If you have mindstream I would say you do not need anything else and maybe one parameter you test manually.
Over 4 years of usage both mindstream and trident come cost the same end to end...

Not sure how you figure:
Mindstream: $1,000 + ($40/mo x 12 mo x 4 years) = $2,920
Trident: $600 + ($45/2mo x 6 x 4 years) + 100 maintenance x 2 =$1,880

Even if you throw in the cost to add an apex, the trident is still cheaper.

Come on I do not think its thay. The company have loads of funding. Just released s new product, do you think they are trying to scam someone for couple thousands?

If they had loads of funding, they shouldn’t have needed to charge your card until the product shipped. They clearly don’t have cash.

 

[road_runner]

Not sure how you figure:
Mindstream: $1,000 + ($40/mo x 12 mo x 4 years) = $2,920
Trident: $600 + ($45/2mo x 6 x 4 years) + 100 maintenance x 2 =$1,880

Even if you throw in the cost to add an apex, the trident is still cheaper.



If they had loads of funding, they shouldn’t have needed to charge your card until the product shipped. They clearly don’t have cash.

I saw this calculations by a user while back.
"
Here's the cost breakdown over a four year period for the base hardware, manufactures recommended service, and reagents. I picked four years since I don't know the cost to service the MindStream yet at the five-year mark.

Neptune Trident
Trident Base Unit Cost = $600
Service - every 18-24 months is less than $100 for a self-service kit or $150-$200 for a factory job. = Self service $200 - Factory $300 to $400
Reagents for four years = $1080 (I confirmed the calibration standard ships with the reagents so you should recalibrate every two months according to Neptune's FAQ)
Four Year Total Cost = $1880 to $2,080

MindStream
Base Unit Cost = $1,000
Service - Every five years = $0
Subscription Disk = $34.95 per month or $1677 for four years
Four Year Total Cost = $2,677

Looking from this angle, I agree the basic cost comparison looks bad for MindStream, but there are other factors I would consider. If we assume the perfect world again and the accuracy between the devices is close, the question we should be asking is... Are you willing to pay $149.25 to $199.25 per year for the additional seven parameters, 15-minute sample intervals, no calibration required ever, and no wastewater or clogged tubes to deal with?

The comparison above also assumes the person already owns an Apex base unit... If not, add an additional $400 for the head unit to control the Trident. Here's what that would look like just for fun.

Neptune Trident + Apex Head Unit
Apex Head Unit = $400
Trident Base Unit Cost = $600
Service - every 18-24 months is less than $100 for a self-service kit or $150-$200 for a factory job. = Self service $200 - Factory $300 to $400
Reagents for four years = $1080 (I confirmed the calibration standard ships with the reagents so you should recalibrate every two months according to Neptune's FAQ)
Four Year Total Cost = $2,280 to $2,480

Now the price delta is only $49.25 - $99.25 per year."

Final note here: the ammount of test items mindstream doing compared to any other tester is hug and justify the 100$ extra a year..

 

[road_runner]

Do not get me wrong am not ready to buy this. Am waiting dor the rest of products to come out then I choose.
Here is the thing though:
I spend more than 100$ a moth on test kits and icp..that's me...
Buying any of the equipment (trident+apex upgrade, ion and kh director or alktronic) will cost me more than 1k..so for someone like me, IF, mindstream deliever in test aquarcy its absolutely no brainer...

 

[bluprntguy]

I saw this calculations by a user while back.
"
Here's the cost breakdown over a four year period for the base hardware, manufactures recommended service, and reagents. I picked four years since I don't know the cost to service the MindStream yet at the five-year mark.

Neptune Trident
Base Unit Cost = $600
Service - every 18-24 months is less than $100 for a self-service kit or $150-$200 for a factory job. = Self service $200 - Factory $300 to $400
Reagents for four years = $1080 (I confirmed the calibration standard ships with the reagents so you should recalibrate every two months according to Neptune's FAQ)
Four Year Total Cost = $1880 to $2,080

MindStream
Base Unit Cost = $1,000
Service - Every five years = $0
Subscription Disk = $34.95 per month or $1677 for four years
Four Year Total Cost = $2,677

Looking from this angle, I agree the basic cost comparison looks bad for MindStream, but there are other factors I would consider. If we assume the perfect world again and the accuracy between the devices is close, the question we should be asking is... Are you willing to pay $149.25 to $199.25 per year for the additional seven parameters, 15-minute sample intervals, no calibration required ever, and no wastewater or clogged tubes to deal with?

The comparison above also assumes the person already owns an Apex base unit... If not, add an additional $400 for the head unit to control the Trident. Here's what that would look like just for fun.

Neptune Trident + Apex Head Unit
Apex Head Unit = $400
Base Unit Cost = $600
Service - every 18-24 months is less than $100 for a self-service kit or $150-$200 for a factory job. = Self service $200 - Factory $300 to $400
Reagents for four years = $1080 (I confirmed the calibration standard ships with the reagents so you should recalibrate every two months according to Neptune's FAQ)
Four Year Total Cost = $2,280 to $2,480

Now the price delta is only $49.25 - $99.25 per year."

I purposefully used the $40/month for the mindstream since it matches the way the Neptune reagents are purchased on a monthly/bi-monthly basis. I also can’t imagine anyone forking over $40o for a years worth of disks from a company with no track record.

The apex base unit and head unit can be purchased together for $800. You’ve shown them separately for $1,000. That’s not really fair.

 

[road_runner]

I purposefully used the $40/month for the mindstream since it matches the way the Neptune reagents are purchased on a monthly/bi-monthly basis. I also can’t imagine anyone forking over $40o for a years worth of disks from a company with no track record.

The apex base unit and head unit can be purchased together for $800. You’ve shown them separately for $1,000. That’s not really fair.

Again this is not my calculations maybe you right maybe you wrong.
But I think you wrong cause calculation is: 400 for apex head, 600 for trident itself.
To me calculations is much simpler.

For monthly I know I pay more than 35$ to test less than what mindstream provide.

Entry investment, I will need to pay 800 to 1200$ for any other equipment that will also test less than the mindstream.

No reagent, no calibration, no sending equipment to vendor, no annual maintenance..

So it's no brainer as long as mindstream deliever on test accuracy and that's what am waiting on..

 

[road_runner]

I purposefully used the $40/month for the mindstream since it matches the way the Neptune reagents are purchased on a monthly/bi-monthly basis. I also can’t imagine anyone forking over $40o for a years worth of disks from a company with no track record.

The apex base unit and head unit can be purchased together for $800. You’ve shown them separately for $1,000. That’s not really fair.

If you buy trident with only the head then it's not fair to compare it to mindstream.
You will want to add salinity, ph, temp, o2..etc with all their beautiful modules to support these measurements..

Today I got to know that only o2 is being sold for more lile 775$ for prob and module on apex..

 

[bluprntguy]

If you buy trident with only the head then it's not fair to compare it to mindstream.
You will want to add salinity, ph, temp, o2..etc

Today I got to know that only o2 is being sold for more lile 775$ for prob and module on apex..

The entire set with the base, head, and probes is $800. Look on BRS. You don’t have to buy everything separately. It all comes in the package together.

I think it’s debatable that anyone wants or needs to add O2, but even if you do, the apex is still cheaper than the mindstream with the added 02 probe. Also, with the apex and trident you have a controller, tester, and doser. With the mindstream you just get a tester.

 

[road_runner]

The entire set with the base, head, and probes is $800. Look on BRS. You don’t have to buy everything separately. It all comes in the package together.

I think it’s debatable that anyone wants or needs to add O2, but even if you do, the apex is still cheaper than the mindstream with the added 02 probe. Also, with the apex and trident you have a controller, tester, and doser. With the mindstream you just get a tester.

Aha, look like they dropped the price isnot it?
Couple months I checked it was difftent. Maybe am imagining things..
Well value of competitions ha ha.

To me, again this is to me: still midstream is better deal as its like having your own ICP machines without the need to buy and bind myself to a controller...
Thw ammount of tests this thing do justify the couple hundreds extra for the entry price..

Ad long ad they deliver thu...time will tell. Its either this or ion probs where adding tests will be a magger of adding probs while I am sure adding tests for apex will mean modules and arm and a leg...
Again, this is me..

 

[bluprntguy]

Aha, look like they dropped the price isnot it?
Couple months I checked it was difftent. Maybe am imagining things..
Well value of competitions ha ha.

To me, again this is to me: still midstream is better deal as its like having your own ICP machines without the need to buy and bind myself to a controller...
Thw ammount of tests this thing do justify the couple hundreds extra for the entry price..

Ad long ad they deliver thu...time will tell. Its either this or ion probs where adding tests will be a magger of adding probs while I am sure adding tests for apex will mean modules and arm and a leg...
Again, this is me..

Well, for $3,000 over 4 years, you can send off an icp test almost 2 times a month. That gives you results on 36 different elements vs 10 for the mindstream.

 

[road_runner]

Well, for $3,000 over 4 years, you can send off an icp test almost 2 times a month. That gives you results on 36 different elements vs 10 for the mindstream.

1- it's not 3k its 2600
2- we just said I will spend more with any other equipment)
3- icp do not give you live monitoring or kh or salinity..etc
4- with the same logic something like Triton or any automation equipment for that matter cost would give you similar number of icp tests a month over 4 years..maybe bit less but same concept apply

Anyway, if it's not for you my freind it's not for you.
For sure it's not for me yet, am waiting and observing..

 

[road_runner]

I purposefully used the $40/month for the mindstream since it matches the way the Neptune reagents are purchased on a monthly/bi-monthly basis. I also can’t imagine anyone forking over $40o for a years worth of disks from a company with no track record.

The apex base unit and head unit can be purchased together for $800. You’ve shown them separately for $1,000. That’s not really fair.

Btw what was wrong exactly in the calculations?
I think it was right.
He did not count 1000 for apex.
He counted 400$ for apex and 600$ for trident itself.

So the way I see it the cost of apex+ trident is more than his calculations actually since he did not count for the apex bundle that have probs, he accounted for the head unit only to allow him to add the trident.
Apex will be more expensive.

To me or someone who do not have an apex 2016
cost will be
Apex with probs $800
Trident $600
O2 prob+ module $775
Entry price total $2175
Granted this is controller as well, but still..

Then on top
Service - every 18-24 months is less than $100 for a self-service kit or $150-$200 for a factory job. = Self service $200 - Factory $300 to $400
Reagents for four years = $1080

Total cost will be: 2175+1080+ your choice of the annual maintenance=~$3200 to ~$3500 (this will still test less than mindstream...7 parameters lesa)

am I missing something in the calculation?

 

[Jeff_H]

They charged you and you won’t see the product for 6-8 weeks? So by the time you get it, your time to dispute charges will have lapsed. If it doesn’t work, you’ll basically have no recourse with your credit card company.

This company is slimy.

Yes - They charged my card with me knowing (upfront) the product wouldn't ship for 6-8 weeks at best. I did it to get in line for what I expect will be a limited supply. As I've mentioned earlier, I'm still waiting for three different online companies to get back to me on an available trident since the launch day... Still nothing! This was my choice to make before giving them my credit card number, and there was nothing shady about it. Also, I verified with my CC company today and they confirmed some companies do this specifically for limited supply items and it is legal. The also said I have up to six months to dispute the charges, even longer for special cases. I don't know if all credit cards are the same, but this is the case with mine. From my perspective, I can pull the plug any time I decide I don't like what I'm seeing from them or the product. For now, I'm still cautiously optimistic!

 

[Jeff_H]

I saw this calculations by a user while back.
"
Here's the cost breakdown over a four year period for the base hardware, manufactures recommended service, and reagents. I picked four years since I don't know the cost to service the MindStream yet at the five-year mark.

Neptune Trident
Trident Base Unit Cost = $600
Service - every 18-24 months is less than $100 for a self-service kit or $150-$200 for a factory job. = Self service $200 - Factory $300 to $400
Reagents for four years = $1080 (I confirmed the calibration standard ships with the reagents so you should recalibrate every two months according to Neptune's FAQ)
Four Year Total Cost = $1880 to $2,080

MindStream
Base Unit Cost = $1,000
Service - Every five years = $0
Subscription Disk = $34.95 per month or $1677 for four years
Four Year Total Cost = $2,677

Looking from this angle, I agree the basic cost comparison looks bad for MindStream, but there are other factors I would consider. If we assume the perfect world again and the accuracy between the devices is close, the question we should be asking is... Are you willing to pay $149.25 to $199.25 per year for the additional seven parameters, 15-minute sample intervals, no calibration required ever, and no wastewater or clogged tubes to deal with?

The comparison above also assumes the person already owns an Apex base unit... If not, add an additional $400 for the head unit to control the Trident. Here's what that would look like just for fun.

Neptune Trident + Apex Head Unit
Apex Head Unit = $400
Trident Base Unit Cost = $600
Service - every 18-24 months is less than $100 for a self-service kit or $150-$200 for a factory job. = Self service $200 - Factory $300 to $400
Reagents for four years = $1080 (I confirmed the calibration standard ships with the reagents so you should recalibrate every two months according to Neptune's FAQ)
Four Year Total Cost = $2,280 to $2,480

Now the price delta is only $49.25 - $99.25 per year."

Final note here: the ammount of test items mindstream doing compared to any other tester is hug and justify the 100$ extra a year..

This information originated from me on a different thread.

 

[road_runner]

This information originated from me on a different thread.

Yes sir, thank you so much for pointing that out.
I copy paste your calculations to my phone but for some reason cannot find the original post...
Thank you!
Do you agree with the discussion thu? I do not see your calculation wrong, I actually see it conservative, if you go trident route it's not reasonable not to think you will need probs to get basic temp,salinity..etc.
And of we compare apple to.apple we even meed to add the O2 prob price to the trident route...

 

[Jeff_H]

I purposefully used the $40/month for the mindstream since it matches the way the Neptune reagents are purchased on a monthly/bi-monthly basis. I also can’t imagine anyone forking over $40o for a years worth of disks from a company with no track record.

The apex base unit and head unit can be purchased together for $800. You’ve shown them separately for $1,000. That’s not really fair.

I think I posted the $35 per month before I knew there was a difference in price. That said - You might not be able to image someone dropping $400 per year on an unproven company, but I can promise you I will. I've dropped more than that on a coral that I have zero guarantees will survive a day in my tank. Like I said before, we all have a different pain and/or trust threshold.

I use the Apex Base unit ($400) and the Trident ($600) to show the lowest possible cost if you didn't own an Apex yet. You would add an additional $100 to $400 doing it the way you suggested going with the full or EL options.

 

[Paul Sands]

Yes - They charged my card with me knowing (upfront) the product wouldn't ship for 6-8 weeks at best. I did it to get in line for what I expect will be a limited supply. As I've mentioned earlier, I'm still waiting for three different online companies to get back to me on an available trident since the launch day... Still nothing! This was my choice to make before giving them my credit card number, and there was nothing shady about it. Also, I verified with my CC company today and they confirmed some companies do this specifically for limited supply items and it is legal. The also said I have up to six months to dispute the charges, even longer for special cases. I don't know if all credit cards are the same, but this is the case with mine. From my perspective, I can pull the plug any time I decide I don't like what I'm seeing from them or the product. For now, I'm still cautiously optimistic!

I get it. New gadgets are fun. But if the company has to charge your credit card 2 months in advance of shipping the product, that’s pretty indicative of a company completely strapped for cash. If so, the only possible way for them to survive long term is constant new influx of customers buying their product. They haven’t allowed beta testers to share their experiences in advance of the initial sales. I can’t imagine a reason for that other than poor performance or bad management.

The Kickstarter for this product was 6 years ago and so poorly managed and delayed that they had to cancel it. I’m sure we’ll have a few months, if not another year or two to debate this product before they actually end up shipping anything.

I think I posted the $35 per month before I knew there was a difference in price. That said - You might not be able to image someone dropping $400 per year on an unproven company, but I can promise you I will. I've dropped more than that on a coral that I have zero guarantees will survive a day in my tank. Like I said before, we all have a different pain and/or trust threshold.

Really? You’d put $420 at risk to save $60? I think I’d pay the $40/month for a few months at least.