The myth that LED lights last forever

[oreo54]

Can you point to one time anyone actually quantified the differences?
BTW the " subject" was t5's not mh ..

 

[A. grandis]

Can you point to one time anyone actually quantified the differences?
BTW the " subject" was t5's not mh ..

Can you point ONE time that you ever tested any of the lights available over a reef tank?
Do you have more experience than those reefers?
Did you get a reef tank running yet. Oreo?

Experience is what application is about.
Adam mentioned T5s and metal halides. He didn't even mention LEDs. LOL!
My personal preferences are backed up by almost 3 decades of experiences with various reef tanks under all types of artificial lights and sunlight.
People just can't come here and try to defend their confirmation bias against a simple subject trying to justify their preferences against what the OP posted. Using arguments of light comparison, instead of just discussing the degradation of LEDs, which is a very interesting subject and should be discussed by whoever is interested in using them. I don't get it! Why every time people have to compare lights and try to justify their feelings like that?

The degradation of LEDs is real and should be taken seriously in this hobby. It's not something that anyone should be ashamed of or to ignore! This thread should be focused on the DEGRADATION OF LEDs. It would be so great to learn more about that! It's good for the LED uses to understand and face the fact!

 

[oreo54]

Can you point ONE time that you ever tested any of the lights available over a reef tank?
Do you have more experience than those reefers?
Did you get a reef tank running yet. Oreo?

Experience is what application is about.
Adam mentioned T5s and metal halides. He didn't even mention LEDs. LOL!
My personal preferences are backed up by almost 3 decades of experiences with various reef tanks under all types of artificial lights and sunlight.
People just can't come here and try to defend their confirmation bias against a simple subject trying to justify their preferences against what the OP posted. Using arguments of light comparison, instead of just discussing the degradation of LEDs, which is a very interesting subject and should be discussed by whoever is interested in using them. I don't get it! Why every time people have to compare lights and try to justify their feelings like that?

The degradation of LEDs is real and should be taken seriously in this hobby. It's not something that anyone should be ashamed of or to ignore! This thread should be focused on the DEGRADATION OF LEDs. It would be so great to learn more about that! It's good for the LED uses to understand and face the fact!

Not about me....


Btw plenty about led degradation..
I can give you tests where L70 was predicted from REAL DATA to be over 200,000. Hrs

Of course today L80 is what they want to use as standard and L90 is probably preferred in a hobby use
Most of which deals with white LEDs though.

Keeping it Cool: The Role of Heat Management in Optimizing LED Technology

For LED technology, from the LED chip to related products such as LED lamps, modules and fixtures, high operating temperature can result in mechanical failure and significant drop of performance. How a LED behaves when subjected to higher operating tempe

www.lumistrips.com

Look ACTUAL DATA. LOL

How about listing all the led lights you used and for how long.

Btw post #40 is all other peoples experience, not yours.
Guess you don't get the irony of that huh.

Btw the only " documented" extreme lumen fade I know of was with a Beamswork led.
Maybe reef brites?
Seems someone thinks so

Reef Brite is a great example of the degradation you mention.

You know where someone actually records things not assumes things.
In all fairness I'm sure there are others

Use quality diodes and adequate heat removal and they last a LONG time.
What more do you need?
Oh and no cheap capacitors or cheap designs in drivers/ power supplies.
Goes the same for all electronic " ballasts"

Think I'll " punish" this thread with the often maligned, with some justification, actual data:

https://luminusdevices.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360060797831-How-and-why-does-the-wavelength-shift-for-my-Luminus-LED-

Feel free to repeat to refute the trial.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

My point in this thread is that a lot of people used the excuse that leds don't degrade over time as a reason to buy fancy new gadgets that don't genuinely add anything better than they had previously. The hobby is about growing corals in a glass box not about sliders in an app, control ability, AB+ spectrums and all that BS. The lowering of heat output is the only true benefit and even that is subjective because your tank heater has to come on more so is that really saving any money.

That truth is if people really cared only about coral health and vitality they would never use anything but 6500k MH as close to sunlight as we are ever going to get.

 

[piranhaman00]

I like t5s because I can’t tinker with them and if I do switching bulbs does not affect the corals like adjusting spectrum.

I would love to try the Phillips coral care but they are just too expensive.

 

[shwareefer]

The hobby is about growing corals in a glass box not about sliders in an app, control ability, AB+ spectrums and all that BS.

I don't really think you can decide what constitutes someone else's hobby. It's like saying there should be no polished crome, detailing and fancy paint at an auto show because it should all be about horsepower. Certainly the coral shouldn't suffer at the expense of those things. Is coral suffering under leds? Generally I don't think so.

That truth is if people really cared only about coral health and vitality they would never use anything but 6500k MH as close to sunlight as we are ever going to get.

True for shallower collected species but many deeper collected corals would have to adjust (and possibly wouldn't). My first tank had 5K halides and 40w actinics. I loved that look and certainly my corals adapted and grew well but a few just fried. 'Acclimation mode' was bottom coral placement and diffusers, not a setting in an app, but both ways are just facets of a hobby.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Can you point ONE time that you ever tested any of the lights available over a reef tank?
Do you have more experience than those reefers?

So wait - talking heads (many of them more full of crap than an elephant) on youtube are now the gold standard of fact? Good grief.

The degradation of LEDs is real and should be taken seriously in this hobby.

I don't see anybody saying that they don't degrade. The FACT is that they don't degrade at the same rate or in the same manner as the other light sources. Again, all we have to do is look at the data sheets to determine the rate.

It would be so great to learn more about that! It's good for the LED uses to understand and face the fact!

Again - who is not facing the facts? The only people I see here that are having trouble with the facts are the OP and folks like yourself, hellbent on propping up a pointless debate with straw arguments and their own bias.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I like t5s because I can’t tinker with them and if I do switching bulbs does not affect the corals like adjusting spectrum.

I would love to try the Phillips coral care but they are just too expensive.

Huh? Switching bulbs does switch spectrum and intensity and DOES effect corals...

 

[jason2459]

This thread is lacking a lot of proof and is full of conjecture.

I can say my readings over the years did not change much more then testing accuracy.

I did log my first initial tests in this thread and they did not significantly drift from them including my last set on readings about a month before I took down my 180. About 6 years.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/r...-v2-vs-apex-pmk-vs-apogee-mq-510-full.292681/

 

[Ef4life]

I think led can/do degrade over time, which is why I feel manufacturers should build in ways for the end user to repair or replace parts inside, or upgrade them. Orphek is great about this. Older ai prime hd now have options from Luxdium for led replacements Saving a good older light from the trash.

 

[jason2459]

You can repair and replace parts. Keep em cool and they will last longer. A capacitor blows, replace it. An LED burns out prematurely, it can be replaced too.

 

[oreo54]

That truth is if people really cared only about coral health and vitality they would never use anything but 6500k MH as close to sunlight as we are ever going to get.

Actually arguably sulfur plasma is ..

And....since people aren't running 6500k mh's ( or PREMIUM 6500 K LED for that matter) kind of opens the field up a bit
to the other factors you dismiss.

 

[oreo54]

I think led can/do degrade over time, which is why I feel manufacturers should build in ways for the end user to repair or replace parts inside, or upgrade them. Orphek is great about this. Older ai prime hd now have options from Luxdium for led replacements Saving a good older light from the trash.

Well ghl Mitras has replaceable pucks.

 

[BeanAnimal]

My point in this thread is that a lot of people used the excuse that leds don't degrade over time as a reason to buy fancy new gadgets that don't genuinely add anything better than they had previously.

You are taking a general fact that people understand about LEDs:
-They degrade far slower than MH or T5

And twisting it into an absolute to:
-People are dumb and think LEDS never degrade

For the purpose of making the argument that metal halides (or whatever) grow coral better, something that may or may not be true, but has nothing to do with the degradation curve of either. Moreover, you are intimating that people who purchased LEDs are uninformed fools.

And, yes - MANY people purchased LEDs because they were tired of constant arc tube replacement and because they could gain more spectral and intensity control. You portray these people as uninformed and too dumb to understand what they are buying or what they are replacing. That too is patently silly....

Opinionated you certainly are... Not sure sure about informed or armed with facts to support those opinions.

The hobby is about growing corals in a glass box not about sliders in an app, control ability, AB+ spectrums and all that BS.

That is your opinion, but most certainly not mine. Some people are in the hobby because they like to tinker with things, others for the fish, and yet others.

The lowering of heat output is the only true benefit and even that is subjective because your tank heater has to come on more so is that really saving any money.

Only benefit to who? You?

Benefits to me:
- less maintenance
- fewer hotspots
- more control
- less chiller run time
- less total system power consumption
- no more burned elbows or foreheads working in tank
- less fire risk
- smaller footprint both in fixture and power source
- lower RFI
- better resale value
- no need for separate supplemental or moon lights
- no warmup or restart time or damage due to rapid or constant restarts
- etc.

Also - since when was indirect heating more efficient than direct heating? Shall we do the math?

That truth is if people really cared only about coral health and vitality they would never use anything but 6500k MH as close to sunlight as we are ever going to get.

The truth is that you confuse YOUR OPINION with fact and appear to think the rest of us are ill-informed for not taking said opinion as fact.

As to what spectrum and source is "best" for coral - that is a broad subject. We can't define "best" or "better" without context, so how can we begin to debate what light fits either.

 

[Garf]

I miss the buzzing / humming noise.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

If you don’t like the high cost of LEDS build your own. List of materials below, also I’m going to add a glass panel to the box and experiment with Focusing Lenses.

COB LED Build;

Chanzon High Power Led Chip 30W Royal Blue Plant Grow Light (440nm - 450nm / 900mA / DC 30V - 34V / 30 Watt) $7.41 Amazon

Chanzon LED Driver 900mA (Constant Current Output) 18V-39V (Input 85-277V AC-DC) (6-12) x3 18W 24W 30W 36W IP67 Waterproof High Power Supply 900 mA Lighting Transformer for 30W COB Chips (Aluminum) $14.83 Amazon

Square Aluminium Heat Sink 90x90x25mm for 20W 30W 50W LED Lamp Light Bulb COB. $15.09 eBay

Kooling Monster KOLD-01, High Performance Silicone Thermal Paste for Cooling All Heatsinks, Silicone Paste Designed for Easy Spreading. 1.4ml/3.6g) $3.00 Amazon

Wathai EC Axial Fan AC 110V 115V 120V 220V 240V Brushless Cooling Fan 80mm x 25mm for Desktop. $15.89 Amazon

Fielect Round Cable Wire Strain Relief Bush Grommet Round Strain Relief Bushing Electric Cable Protection Cord Buckle 6N-4 $0.63 Amazon

YETLEBOX Watertight Junction Box, IP67 Waterproof Project Box Durable ABS Plastic Electronic Enclosure Case for DIY Electrical Project Black 7.87" x 4.72" x 4.45"(200 x 120 x 113 mm) $16.95 Amazon.

Four M4 x 70 Screws and Nuts $7.38 ACE Hardware

Misc. 18 Stranded Wire

Misc. Solder

Misc. Soldering Paste

Two Grey Wire Nuts
Two Blue Wire Nuts
Two 4” Cable Ties

Misc Shrink Tubing

Tools;

#1 Phillips Screwdriver.

Wire Cutter, Striper, Bolt Cutter

Soldering Iron

9/16” Drill Bit

Misc. Small Drill Bits

2-1/2” Hole Saw

Drill Motor



$81.18

To add a Second COB LED Assembly to the box, it’s going to be about $62.00 Temperature is running at about 30 C on the COB, per a Beaded Fluke Probe, and Checking with the Fluke Inferred Thermometer.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I miss the buzzing / humming noise.

Shhh - or somebody will steal the idea and bake it in, just like in modern autos.

Fun Fact - When the first pixel based TVs came out, people were still choosing CRTs based on the having "more control". You see (no pun) there is no "sharpness" control for pixel based displays and people saw the lack of a "sharpness" control as con of LCDs. So Sony (if I remember) added a sharpness control to their LCD, it did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and was a cosmetic add-on, but gave people what they thought that they were missing. Then every other OEM had to follow suit so that they did not look like they were lacking the same tech or control. This went on for almost 15 years

 

[RedoubtReef]

Brands like Ecotech bring out Radions as frequently as apple do iPhones. Its a gravy train nothing more.

Word!

 

[BeanAnimal]

Word!

Yeah because neither have incremental improvements…. You’d be the same people complaining that Ecotech or Apple are lazy and greedy because they sell the same product for a decade without spending money on R&D and incorporating new technology to stay relevant.

 

[Reefering1]

When I started my tank I was perfectly happy with my black box leds. A couple years later i decided to "upgrade" to hydra64hds. Again, I was perfectly content with them for a couple years until I realized they didn't quite have the spread of the Chinese fixtures. So I added another 64hd. Instantly i could visually see that it was a different color that the other fixtures, especially when ramping up or down. The new one had a more purplish blue while the 2 year old units looked more teal colored. All running same program togethe. So 2 years and the spectrum shifted. How much does it matter? I have no clue. But I was taught to change my t5s every year because the spectrum shifted, so I assume led are similar. So what I would need to replace $3k of lights every few years instead of a few hundred in bulbs in that same time? I find that ridiculous. I scooped up all the mh fixtures and m80 ballasts I could find, spend about a thousand on 5 fixtures and 7 ballasts(all in excellent condition) and another $3k on 60 something bulbs. So 4 grand and I'm set for the next 20 years or so. Seems like simple math if you're in it for the long term. Hopefully leds have significant evolution by then. The mh look is simply entrancing, nothing comes close to comparing