The myth that LED lights last forever

[Bpb]

We get it A.Grandis, you love old tech.

Save the paragraphs of nothingness though, you’re typing a whole lot of words to say and prove absolutely nothing.

If you have actual empirical evidence to post, by all means, we’re all ears.

Basically - Turbo inline 4 and 6 engines are never going to produce the horsepower of a small block V8!!! Sure, the HP might show 400 to the wheels, but because there isn’t as much combustion for every stroke, you need more HP to actually have the same HP as a 6 Liter! Dont believe me, watch this YouTube of someone that also has a V8 that hates turbo cars, see it’s true! All of history in the automobile era prior to the introduction of these fake HP making turbo cars have proven the power that hits the pavement from V8 is much more natural than the forced air induction of those puny gas saving commuters!!

Oh look, I can do that too

(hope there’s no offense to the tongue in cheek here).

A fairly relevant comparison and one which friends of mine and I discuss regularly (it’s more of normal people talk than the finer points of reef tank lighting). That and how all this plays with the inevitable EV takeover.

 

[A. grandis]

there is zero evidence of this, and no reason to follow it with an “IMO” when you’re trying to present it as factual. All light sources have been proven to grow healthy corals - period.

Factual evidence doesn't need scientific work directed to a single comparison or even using single diodes, for example. That's not what we do in our home systems. The spectrum of a metal halide goes from UV to IR. The spectrum of LEDs lack not only on UV, but also in IR and other wavelengths in between. Please have absolutely no doubt of that! Do you really think those single diodes blend to a "full spectrum" like a halide lamp in real life? Even if we turn everything 100% (colors and intensity). Spectrum on graphics or screens, produced to sell LEDs, are nice and smooth. They are a "representation" of a bunch of individual diodes of different colors, tying to blend as much as they can to make your eyes to believe it becomes a homogeneous light.

I agree with you, freedom of choice is just that - we prefer what we prefer and no one cares what you use or I use. This thread came with participants fixated on trying to disprove LED technology with personal bias rather than data. Those with data on LEDs rebutted, and the anti-LED folks ramped up the agenda.

LEDs degrade much less than other technologies, but they do degrade significantly in spectrum and intensity much more than many manufacturers preach.

One observation made is in the last decade coloration of corals have grown vast - is this attributed to LEDs and customized fiber tuned spectrums? Can’t say as I haven’t read studies or conducted the studies, but it’s a coincidence for sure.

Again, we don't need studies to know that many corals show nice colors under LEDs. Many forget that the reflection of blue and violet LEDs play a big role though. Many just don't know that the proper formation of naturl pigments depend on real full spectrum. It is a relevant quality to many that appreciate what LEDs provide to their eyes. In the end his is just hobby, as many say.

 

[buruskeee]

A fairly relevant comparison and one which friends of mine and I discuss regularly (it’s more of normal people talk than the finer points of reef tank lighting). That and how all this plays with the inevitable EV takeover.

EVs are only cool for city in town commutes. Anything performance oriented and I’ll pass on the silent tire screechers lol.

Those new Toyota combustion engines though they’re trying to bring to market, they might be worth my coins as long as the exhaust note and power is comparable.

 

[LPS Bum]

That is what LED manufacturers and deales want you to believe!!!! If you want to have decent results with LEDs you will need to spend more electricity running more wattage with LEDs then with halides!! You still won't be able to achieve the same results simply because they are different technologies and will give you different results. Halides will produce pigments that LEDs can't (please refer to Mike's video on post #40 of this thread). Sanjay's case is the classic to prove that! You will have results from metal halides very similar, if not quite like under many applications, to what we see in the ocean. If you have the right application you will see that you can actually save money running halides for less hours a day and supplement with T5s, or even LEDs, to achieve amazing results!!!
There is no "trade off". IR is also used in photosynthesis.



With the right application anyone can have metal halides and /or T5s over any system, if that person has the right gear. It's not only for big tanks. it's all about the application. T5s will offer the cover to supply halides, which LEDs won't be able to offer. T5 is the sky light! Halide is the sun in the house!

Sorry pal, but if you think metal halides don’t produce more heat and cost more to operate than LEDs, then you’re living in fantasy land.

That’s not to say metal halides weren’t a good option back in the day, and still can be, but to argue they don’t produce more heat and cost more to operate is just lunacy.

 

[A. grandis]

We get it A.Grandis, you love old tech.

Save the paragraphs of nothingness though, you’re typing a whole lot of words to say and prove absolutely nothing.

If you have actual empirical evidence to post, by all means, we’re all ears.

Basically - Turbo inline 4 and 6 engines are never going to produce the horsepower of a small block V8!!! Sure, the HP might show 400 to the wheels, but because there isn’t as much combustion for every stroke, you need more HP to actually have the same HP as a 6 Liter! Dont believe me, watch this YouTube of someone that also has a V8 that hates turbo cars, see it’s true! All of history in the automobile era prior to the introduction of these fake HP making turbo cars have proven the power that hits the pavement from V8 is much more natural than the forced air induction of those puny gas saving commuters!!

Oh look, I can do that too

(hope there’s no offense to the tongue in cheek here).

Your reaction is what many LED users need to hear for what they want to believe. Everything today is so relative without basis, but when we post some nice info it becomes ignored and all you have to say is what you just wrote.
People ask me scientific evidences to prove halides are "better" than LEDs, but no one have scientific proof that LEDs are better. So... words against words...
I'm glad this can still be published in this format so newbies and older hobbyists can think for themselves. Too bad most LFS don't have a halide/T5 display like before, so newbies can actually see.
Well... words against words... people either will believe in what you just said and confirm their bias, or go back to post #40 and think why those guys chose halides as the ultimate light!

 

[oreo54]

Factual evidence doesn't need scientific work directed to a single comparison or even using single diodes, for example. That's not what we do in our home systems. The spectrum of a metal halide goes from UV to IR. The spectrum of LEDs lack not only on UV, but also in IR and other wavelengths in between. Please have absolutely no doubt of that! Do you really think those single diodes blend to a "full spectrum" like a halide lamp in real life? Even if we turn everything 100% (colors and intensity). Spectrum on graphics or screens, produced to sell LEDs, are nice and smooth. They are a "representation" of a bunch of individual diodes of different colors, tying to blend as much as they can to make your eyes to believe it becomes a homogeneous light.

LEDs degrade much less than other technologies, but they do degrade significantly in spectrum and intensity much more than many manufacturers preach.

Again, we don't need studies to know that many corals show nice colors under LEDs. Many forget that the reflection of blue and violet LEDs play a big role though. Many just don't know that the proper formation of naturl pigments depend on real full spectrum. It is a relevant quality to many that appreciate what LEDs provide to their eyes. In the end his is just hobby, as many say.

Dang.. lost my post..
Anyways FIRST, it is not hard to make a "full spectrum" LED to rival any MH.
4 different diodes. Bridgelux high cri cob, violet, uv, and IR.
Add 5th rb to taste to make it as blue as one likes.

Comparison:

 

[A. grandis]

Sorry pal, but if you think metal halides don’t produce more heat and cost more to operate than LEDs, then you’re living in fantasy land.

That’s not to say metal halides weren’t a good option back in the day, and still can be, but to argue they don’t produce more heat and cost more to operate is just lunacy.

All I said is that if you us it accordingly, you will find that you will need it on for less hours and your corals will look amazing.
If you choose to use ReefBrite halides you will b able to put your hands on the fixture running 400W lamps. So heat isn't the issue. If you need a chiller with halides you most likely will need a chiller with LEDs. I do.
It's a matter of application. Do your search and you will understand.
I'm not better than you. Other halide users have also taken that excuse away from their list. They don't cost more to operate than LEDs, if you want optimal results. You ignored Sanjay's video and just posted what you wanted...

 

[oreo54]

Factual evidence doesn't need scientific work directed to a single comparison or even using single diodes, for example. That's not what we do in our home systems. The spectrum of a metal halide goes from UV to IR. The spectrum of LEDs lack not only on UV, but also in IR and other wavelengths in between. Please have absolutely no doubt of that! Do you really think those single diodes blend to a "full spectrum" like a halide lamp in real life? Even if we turn everything 100% (colors and intensity). Spectrum on graphics or screens, produced to sell LEDs, are nice and smooth. They are a "representation" of a bunch of individual diodes of different colors, tying to blend as much as they can to make your eyes to believe it becomes a homogeneous light.

LEDs degrade much less than other technologies, but they do degrade significantly in spectrum and intensity much more than many manufacturers preach.

Again, we don't need studies to know that many corals show nice colors under LEDs. Many forget that the reflection of blue and violet LEDs play a big role though. Many just don't know that the proper formation of naturl pigments depend on real full spectrum. It is a relevant quality to many that appreciate what LEDs provide to their eyes. In the end his is just hobby, as many say.

First, it is not difficult to make a full spectrum led. 4 diodes.
Add 5th channel to make it as blue as one wants.

Comparison:

LEDs degrade much less than other technologies, but they do degrade significantly in spectrum and intensity much more than many manufacturers preach

Needs proof of "significantly". Any major color shifts would likely be due to decaying phosphors in whites or either lens browning or fade in high energy blues to UV's effects would depend on %. Likely early lights had more of this issue than current due to either poor thermal management, over driven or both. Maybe cheap leds but honestly, least likely. There isn't enough data to prove it is a "significant" issue.
That it happens has been known for a decade or more.

Many just don't know that the proper formation of natural pigments depend on real full spectrum.

Many natural colors are brown..
Define what is THE correct color? As I stated earlier if in some bizarro world leds were being replaced by metal halide SOMEBODY will tell you how "unnatural" the new colors are.


Oh I forgot.. show me the effects of all that garbage on the right on the Ushio. (850nm or greater)

 

[buruskeee]

Factual evidence doesn't need scientific work directed to a single comparison

this is the number 1 argument for flat earthers. The oceans and everywhere I look appears flat and my level says it’s flat therefore empirical evidence is not needed!

but no one have scientific proof that LEDs are better

No one here has made such claim. Only you few here posting for any type of dominance over another, are claiming LEDs are inferior.

All we have said that it’s all personal preference and they all grow coral great. For some reason this isn’t acceptable to you.

Many of us prefer LEDs because of power consumption and heat (something irrefutable - but priority of this differs for each individual). That’s the only argument any of us have made against older tech.

 

[buruskeee]

First, it is not difficult to make a full spectrum led. 4 diodes.
Add 5th channel to make it as blue as one wants.

Hey hey hey .. data isn’t allowed because our eyes is all the data we need! Throw this witch craft into the trash where it belongs!

 

[A. grandis]

Dang.. lost my post..
Anyways FIRST, it is not hard to make a "full spectrum" LED to rival any MH.
4 different diodes. Bridgelux high cri cob, violet, uv, and IR.
Add 5th rb to taste to make it as blue as one likes.

Comparison:

Haha... I'm glad you found your post.
Please make that fixture so I can test here, Oreo.

 

[A. grandis]

this is the number 1 argument for flat earthers. The oceans and everywhere I look appears flat and my level says it’s flat therefore empirical evidence is not needed!



No one here has made such claim. Only you few here posting for any type of dominance over another, are claiming LEDs are inferior.

All we have said that it’s all personal preference and they all grow coral great. For some reason this isn’t acceptable to you.

You're wrong! Read my posts and you will find that I'm all for personal references and to respect them all.

Many of us prefer LEDs because of power consumption and heat (something irrefutable - but priority of this differs for each individual). That’s the only argument any of us have made against older tech.

Yes, that's it. Good.

 

[oreo54]

Haha... I'm glad you found your post.
Please make that fixture so I can test here, Oreo.

Why? Let some deep pocket reefer who wants to have some fun build it. Actually it's pretty cheap.
Btw my post wasn't finished before you responded. Please watch Mr Riddles vid on color.

Feel free to explain to me how my led isn't "full spectrum" and what effects it would have on specific corals, color or growth.

I'd love to know what you feel is wrong about it, besides the current lack of an overall blue cast which goes against the grain of current thinking. Like I said, add a RB channel.

How about a REAL 20000K "full spectrum" light? Got some nice spikes like any ole mh.

 

[Tavero]

I'm curious how long this approach helps extends the light fixture. I also splatter a lot of LEDs up in my canopy and run them all at much lower percentages so much so that the fans never kick on.

I was able to squeeze out the advertised 50.000 hours by running some diodes at 80% power in my diy light before they died. Now I have a diy light running at 30% power for 4 years. No idea about the par loss though.

 

[SashimiTurtle]

The only problem with T5 lights are the fixtures are ugly, the light emitted is ugly, the tank looks flat as a pancake, and they make a ton of heat...

So yeah, T5s are terrible.

 

[A. grandis]

Why? Let some deep pocket reefer who wants to have some fun build it. Actually it's pretty cheap.
Btw my post wasn't finished before you responded. Please watch Mr Riddles vid on color.

Feel free to explain to me how my led isn't "full spectrum" and what effects it would have on specific corals, color or growth.

I'd love to know what you feel is wrong about it, besides the current lack of an overall blue cast which goes against the grain of current thinking. Like I said, add a RB channel.

You should sell your LED cluster than. You will make lot'$$$ of money, right? It will actually produces light emitted just as a metal halide does, representing full spectrum, right? Do it, then. I though the main reason you entered this forum was to develop LED lighting for the market. I'm waiting for you to make that fixture for almost a decade. LOL! Try to also replicate the distribution and make sure we can use the intensity as halides give. Like Kessil? LOL! Everything...
They are not the same technology, Oreo. How many million times do I have to tell you that internet stuff won't replace the practical experiences?

Anyways...
In regards to the video on color, it has nothing to do with comparison of results we all find between halides and LEDs that I've mentioned. The differences are real. There are production of pigments, of course. There are some people even discussing how LEDs can be detrimental to coral health in the long run. They don't publish much that type of info, but some are already going back to halides because of the deformities of colony shape and "fantasy colors", for example. Other organisms like birds and cephalopods are affected by LEDs. Public aquariums have changed back to halides and T5s due to observations in many weird behaviors. Tullio published about that many times, remember? LED's unnatural reflection on organisms is a negative aspect to displays as well. Some biologists also suggest how the flickering from LEDs is also stressful to fishes and even corals in the long run. They choose not to publish their findings. You can try to proof whatever you wish with what your computer can find. It won't take away what real experiences and observations show. I know it's very hard for you to understand. Scientific data needs to fit in the real wold to be used as proof.
The answer to the IR ( that you referred as "garbage") is Emerson Effect. You know that! We've told you many times in this forum. LOL! Do you want to ask Dana about it? Zooxanthellae is included in that aspect.
Again, personal preferences are fine. Excuses can be used as people tend to, and wish. Facts of lighting are a different story.
Tullio sells LEDs, T5s and metal halides...
You like BrS videos, right?
Here is a basic one for you to remember:

I wish everyone here would watch all the videos posted, including the one you posted about colors, because they are so informative!

 

[oreo54]

How about a "natural" 1m light.. See dotted line..Better than a MH.
BTW the Lumiled violet and uv diodes are about $9-$10 each.
There is a version of this being set up by a reefer here.
You talk too much with little hard evidence btw.

The garbage was referring to 850nm or greater. AFAICT well beyond the Emerson effect, though that remains a bit open at this point. Which is why the 740nm diode was chosen.

They choose not to publish their findings

That's ridiculous..tells me they aren't sure of anything. Or is the NWO paying them off?

ANY and I mean ANY sentence that starts off with "some people are saying is INSTANTLY trashed btw.

PWM isn't necessary, there are other ways to dim diodes.

tuillo sells.. instant red flag, regardless. BRS sells.. same thing.

Science really works like this.
Come up with hypothesis ie. MH good led bad.
Write your proof.
Then others repeat to either verify or deny your hypothesis.
When nobody can disprove it it becomes a "fact". Either permanent or discarded later when new facts are found.
THAT I can accept. Rest is just fluff.

 

[A. grandis]

The only problem with T5 lights are the fixtures are ugly, the light emitted is ugly, the tank looks flat as a pancake, and they make a ton of heat...

So yeah, T5s are terrible.

I respect your personal preference and I'm not here to change that part, but T5s are the best light in terms of distribution and spectrum for pigment formation and colony structure there is, for relatively shallow systems. I personally find ATI Sunpower to be very attractive and easy to install. T5s are the easiest lights to achieve excellent results in the long run for tanks of 24" tall or less, with any type of coral, when the application is proper to the system.

 

[A. grandis]

How about a "natural" 1m light.. See dotted line..Better than a MH.
BTW the Lumiled violet and uv diodes are about $9-$10 each.
There is a version of this being set up by a reefer here.

Please get off your knees, you don't need to implore for my approval.
Have a good nigh, Oreo.

 

[oreo54]

Please get off your knees, you don't need to implore for my approval.
Have a good nigh, Oreo.

Trophy for dumbest post of the day?