The opportunity cost of one Vortech MP60 - Greed in the aquarium hobby. Apex & Vortech & More

[Burrito]

ill clarify my earlier post about ranting on price, i still own alot of ecotech products, they work well, are easy to clean and have great customer service. not to mention the resell value is good

 

[Epic Aquaculture]

I agree with those who have said that there are alternatives out there, and no one is forced to buy Apex or Echo Tech products. There is a reason that people do, however. That reason is quality and reliability. I personally am not a fan of Echo Tech pumps, but many are. I am a fan of quality reliable products, as those pieces of equipment are keeping literally tens of thousands of dollars worth of livestock alive in my tank. This is the reason that I spent over a thousand dollars on my Abyzz return pump. It is the most reliable return pump out there and has a 10 year warranty. To me that makes it worth every cent I paid. I will not try to skimp on equipment when I do not skimp on my livestock. As others have said, this is capitalism, and as long as there is demand for these high end expensive products, there will be a supply of them.

 

[Elder1945]

Why buy a luxury car? why buy a RTX 2080 why buy anything that someone else deems overpriced or expensive. Everyone has there own means to buy things and if someone whats to buy a solid gold toilet who am I to say the maker of the toilet is greedy?

This question can be asked about almost anything in this world from a pump to a house.

Why does a home builder charge more for a 6,000sq foot home when a 3,000sq foot cheaper home can do the same thing?

I do not think there is any answer other then people will buy what they want and if people are willing to pay... Why not? who am I to judge?

If you dislike it do not buy it.

 

[Reeferguy365]

The real question is why are you going through so many jaybo pumps I have one jebao wavemaker and 1 jebao return pump I've had them running for 3+ years without any problems. Shoot in the same amount of time I've gone through two current eflux pumps on my 180

 

[Fish_Sticks]

The real question is why are you going through so many jaybo pumps I have one jebao wavemaker and 1 jebao return pump I've had them running for 3+ years without any problems. Shoot in the same amount of time I've gone through two current eflux pumps on my 180

The idea was that I can do snowangles in jebao wavemakers and have backups for a lifetime for the cost of the mp60. In reality, I only have two because they never break. Lol

 

[AwildcatsZ]

+1 In terms of buying customer service and a great warranty.

I own two AI Hydra 26 HDs and an AI Prime. When one of my Hydras decided to stop working, it was a quick phone call to EcoTech and a new light was on its way that day. When the light arrived it had a return label for the broken light. This alone was a HUGE savings, and I feel confident that they will stand by their products if they fail.

When I moved apartments and my Prime wouldn't connect to my new WiFi, EcoTech spent 20+ minutes on the phone with me, walking me through all of the steps to troubleshoot the light.

They may cost more, but you have to take a step back and look at the whole package. Its a high quality product, high quality customer service, high quality warranty, and the comfort in knowing all of this makes the hobby more enjoyable. This is different for everyone, but I personally do not mind spending a couple extra dollars for peace of mind.

 

[Reeferguy365]

The idea was that I can do snowangles in jebao wavemakers and have backups for a lifetime for the cost of the mp60. In reality, I only have two because they never break. Lol

Ok that sounds a little better lol

 

[Gonebad395]

This hobby is all about what your wallet can afford and what you’re willing to deem worthy of your money. I don’t care for ecotech products I’ve had failures with them and I moved on. Money isn’t a problem just their product doesn’t give me piece of mind for my money simple as that. As for why we keep saltwater tanks i can tell you it’s for my and my family’s enjoyment nothing else. I’m not trying to fool myself saying it’s to preserve the ocean or anything else it’s for my zen and enjoyment. That being said I’m not saying we shouldnt persevere our ocean I’m just saying I think saying equipment shouldn’t cost so much because this is being done to save the seas.plain and simple don’t like the price don’t buy the product.

 

[JDowns]

I think if you looked at the cost of development of a product in a niche market you may find that their margins are not quite what you would think. I'd be surprised if a product like the EB832 cost Neptune less than $250,000 to bring to market. Now they have to make their ROI, then count on profit margins to continue to run a business and keep innovating. For something like the MP60 which probably shares the same controller as MP40, the significant price jump is most likely due to the cost of the westside / dry-side housings in limited runs. Most notably the complex mold for the westside and it being three parts. There is probably $75-$100k in mold costs just for the wet-side alone. There is a lot of risk, investment, and innovation that goes into creating a product and then bring it to market.

Comparing those products to Jabeo is certainly not an apples to apples comparison since Jabeo does not innovate, they create knock-offs of other companies products.

Knock-off products typically raise the cost of the legitimate product, and complaining about the cost of the legitimate product while purchasing the knock-off....well

 

[Brew12]

I think if you looked at the cost of development of a product in a niche market you may find that their margins are not quite what you would think. I'd be surprised if a product like the EB832 cost Neptune less than $250,000 to bring to market. Now they have to make their ROI, then count on profit margins to continue to run a business and keep innovating. For something like the MP60 which probably shares the same controller as MP40, the significant price jump is most likely due to the cost of the westside / dry-side housings in limited runs. Most notably the complex mold for the westside and it being three parts. There is probably $75-$100k in mold costs just for the wet-side alone. There is a lot of risk, investment, and innovation that goes into creating a product and then bring it to market.

Comparing those products to Jabeo is certainly not an apples to apples comparison since Jabeo does not innovate, they create knock-offs of other companies products.

Knock-off products typically raise the cost of the legitimate product, and complaining about the cost of the legitimate product while purchasing the knock-off....well

Very well said. I would add just a bit more.
Most of these companies don't own their own production lines. They have to rent time on a production line. This means they have to pay to have the machines re-tooled before every production run. If they make smaller batches, the cost per unit goes up because of those re-tooling costs. If they make larger batches they end up with a large amount of capital tied up in inventory. This also has debt and tax implications which raise the price per unit.

The price must also cover repair and replacement costs under warranty. Not to mention those people who will buy three different types of power heads, run them each for a few days, and return the ones they don't like.

There are also advertising and customer support costs that come into play. Even a single live customer support member has significant costs that are ongoing. It's all paid for by those initial sales.

 

[dantimdad]

I was gonna stay out of this but, you know me...

We live in a free market economy and I am glad we do. Things are only worth what folks will pay. I will not begrudge anyone making money.

Now, are aquarium items overpriced? YES! Do we all know it? Maybe. Will this ever be settled? NO WAY!

I have worked in IT, manufacturing, retail and the aquarium business as a breeder, reseller, retailer and sort of manufacturer so I have seen everything from design, to actual tooling and manufacturing to the retail sail of these items. About 75% of these items are NOT designed or manufactured by the US companies who sell them.

There are huge trade shows in the orient where they pitch everything from dog collars to aquarium controllers to US companies to brand them and sell them stateside. These companies don't have nearly the overhead we have here so they can sell to the companies here at staggeringly low prices in huge volumes or one-offs.

Now, where the expense comes in, paying any kind of customer service rep here costs a minimum of $25K a year even if they only pay the person $10 an hour because of taxes, office space, insurance, etc. Advertising here is expensive. Shipping is outrageous here as well.

Does this mean that they are actually doing enough work to charge 6-15x what they are paying? I will let you be the judge.

Please do not use the quality argument. Most of these things come from the same place. Read all the complaints and horror stories from those willing to admit the shortcomings of "Better Quality" equipment. The only reason people complain more about the less expensive things breaking is they are not as embarrassed to admit losing $50 vs. $350.

I myself, build what I can and shop price and features on everything else. Certain things you just can't skimp on because yes, they have been proven to be better. But those things are few and far between today.

 

[madweazl]

I use MP40s on my tanks for a number of reasons. First, they're the only pump on the market that keeps the power out of the tank. Next, their controllers are fantastic; I like the modes of operation, the ease programming, and the reliability. Lastly, and one of the most important for me, is they give something back to the hobby/environment instead of sending the money off to China where it truly only lines somebodies "greedy" pocket.

 

[Reeferguy365]

I really like how everyone's explaining reasons for the price instead of yelling at the op. Good work everyone ;Happy

 

[dantimdad]

I really like how everyone's explaining reasons for the price instead of yelling at the op. Good work everyone ;Happy

No reason to yell at him. He and everyone else has a right to their opinion.

 

[brandon clow]

I was gonna stay out of this but, you know me...

We live in a free market economy and I am glad we do. Things are only worth what folks will pay. I will not begrudge anyone making money.

Now, are aquarium items overpriced? YES! Do we all know it? Maybe. Will this ever be settled? NO WAY!

I have worked in IT, manufacturing, retail and the aquarium business as a breeder, reseller, retailer and sort of manufacturer so I have seen everything from design, to actual tooling and manufacturing to the retail sail of these items. About 75% of these items are NOT designed or manufactured by the US companies who sell them.

There are huge trade shows in the orient where they pitch everything from dog collars to aquarium controllers to US companies to brand them and sell them stateside. These companies don't have nearly the overhead we have here so they can sell to the companies here at staggeringly low prices in huge volumes or one-offs.

Now, where the expense comes in, paying any kind of customer service rep here costs a minimum of $25K a year even if they only pay the person $10 an hour because of taxes, office space, insurance, etc. Advertising here is expensive. Shipping is outrageous here as well.

Does this mean that they are actually doing enough work to charge 6-15x what they are paying? I will let you be the judge.

Please do not use the quality argument. Most of these things come from the same place. Read all the complaints and horror stories from those willing to admit the shortcomings of "Better Quality" equipment. The only reason people complain more about the less expensive things breaking is they are not as embarrassed to admit losing $50 vs. $350.

I myself, build what I can and shop price and features on everything else. Certain things you just can't skimp on because yes, they have been proven to be better. But those things are few and far between today.

I resound this. I think threads like this perhaps bring a reality of sorts though that we should acknowledge. Hearing both sides of it gives me perspective in looking at the $50-800 price gaps. I think at the end of it's how you justify what you spend. Some can digest the 400+ cost for a wave maker and for others it's not.

 

[Ronny Bello]

this is a stupidly expensive hobby when it comes to hard goods.... i understand fish and coral, someone has to collect it and what not but manufacturing/ r&d,etc should not cost so much for a pump or light. a smart phone which i would argue is x times more complicated is the same price as ONE radion fixture.

/rant, my wife thinks everything cost $20

My wife does too

 

[Ronny Bello]

Hate high prices but buy cheap and save money to upgrade that's the way to do this hobby.

 

[lapin]

@Brew12 and @JDowns have it nailed. I worked for a race car/ performance parts company. We went to Mexico to a well known shock absorber manufacture. We had them private label a line of shocks for us. We marketed them as high performance and different than the other brands on the market. We sold them for 2x what other companies sold the same product. We sold a lot.
Value is a perception. If a company chooses to market something, pricing is not always to the benefit of the consumer. IE drug companies....ect...ect...ect

 

[Jonreefer]

Problem is this hobby seems to be filled with people who will just spend whatever to say they have this product. Apple community and reef community are ALOT alike and will pay whatever for some unknown reason and look down on anyone who buys something for less and gets the same thing out of it. I wont give ecotech or any of those other companies that charge stupid prices for some plastic and a little cheap motor inside anymore of my money. Bought an MP10 and have regretted it since. Grossly overpriced for what it is and never again.

 

[shiftline]

If you feel something is to expensive don’t buy it! Simple solution. Like anything in life there is a cheap version or high end

You can have a Kia or a Beamer.. all depends on what’s your style

I have been in the aquatic hobby on and off for prob 15 years. To an extent you get what you pay for. Yes jebaos are cheap but they also don’t last as long.. I have replaced countless over the years. I have never had a Vortech die on me. I once had a warranty issue from some funny sounds from a lighting power supply and their customer service quickly shipped me a new one. Amazing customer service!

I always tend start with cheaper version to get my feet wet and eventually get the good stuff.

But at the end of the day If you feel something is too expensive for you then just don’t buy it .. easy solution . Or better yet sell some frags and let your tank pay for it for you!