The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[Paul B]

Sounds like a plan.

 

[GeoSquid]

Additionally, Aquaculture as show good results with PreBiotics - Saccharomyces cerevisiae (Brewers yeast).

Prebiotics and their role in sustainable aquaculture - Responsible Seafood Advocate

Results of a study of prebiotics on growth of European sea bass juveniles indicates this product can improve fish growth performance and allowing for the fish to reach the marketable size earlier, boosting their immune status, and reducing potential fish losses due to pathogens.

www.aquaculturealliance.org

 

[Bobbiejoe]

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine)


I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else.

It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef because that fish will probably die. You may not see many spots on fish in a store because just about all stores use medications in their tanks to suppress the parasites. They have to because they get new fish all the time from all over the world and they can't change all the water and sterilize their tanks in between shipments. But all fish are infected in a store and even in the sea. They swim in a soup of parasites, viruses and bacteria, some good, some not so good.

In the sea those pathogens are kept in check by each other as viruses prey on parasites and bacteria and other forces such as things exuded from corals and tend to keep everything in check. Of course they all prey on fish.

But fish have been around almost as long as those things and they evolved long ago to live in harmony with all of them. Fish eat parasites with every meal and those parasites are processed in the fishes kidney among other places and that causes the fish to exude antiparisitic and antibacterial properties in their slime. They constantly do this and it keeps parasites and bacteria from killing the fish even though some parasites will get through to sample some fish flesh.


Anyway, that is the basis for my method that I slowly learned starting in about 1973 when I had to keep fish in copper continuously as we all did. (20 pennies to the gallon) Our tanks were not reefs, we fed flakes, changed the water to much and took out the rocks and dead corals to bleach them whenever they turned green which was almost weekly. The fish were always stressed and it was hard to keep even damsels.

Then I started feeding things other than flakes, things like frozen clams, pieces of fish and live blackworms. In 7 weeks my blue devils spawned and kept spawning for 7 years. Spawning damsels is no great Whop but in those days few people could keep them alive for a few weeks.

I gradually learned that bacteria and parasites would not kill my fish as long as I didn't medicate them. It was backward thinking but remember there was no internet and I didn't even know anyone with a salt tank so I was on my own.

When I added a fish it normally would get spots and sometimes die, but most of the time the spots receded and the fish was fine and didn't get sick when I added a new fish.

That was how I learned my method which is not really a method but a lack of a method.

With my method you can not quarantine because that short circuits the process. I actually want parasites and bacteria as that is what the fish was swimming with in the sea a week before.

I just put the fish in my tank and normally the fish starts eating right away and is fine. About half the time the fish will show a few spots but they are very few and disappear in a day or two. Yes they finished their life cycle on that fish and dropped off to infect something else, but they can't because those fish are constantly exposed to parasites so they are immune.

The things I do “not” do is quarantine.

I do not ever feed dry foods such as flakes or pellets as those foods are sterile.

I do not suck every bit of detritus out of my tank


I do however always feed something with live bacteria in it such as frozen foods.

I feed whole foods with guts such as clams, mysis, mussels and I use LRS foods which is a commercial food which I consider the best. But I still want to give the fish something that I know has living bacteria in it. I try to feed a few times a week some live worms but sometimes I can’t. Where I live now I can’t get them but I do raise live whiteworms which live in dirt. I bought a few of them years ago and that batch is still living and reproducing. I like the worms because of the living bacteria in their guts and the dirt they are living in. Some people that have immune tanks never use live worms so they may not be necessary, but I use them when I can. These things need not be fed every day, but at least occasionally. But all foods should have bacteria in it and if you feed nothing but commercial food, I am not sure how much living bacteria is in that because you don’t know how old it is or what temperature it was stored at.



If you have access to a salt water beach, collect a little mud and sprinkle it around the tank. That is for bacterial diversity. If you can’t get that, you can use garden soil with no pesticides or fertilizer.

(I did not invent that, it was “Robert Straughn” The Father of salt water fish keeping.)

The idea is that I want parasites living in the tank along with the fish. They will keep reproducing and trying to infect fish but they will fail.

I know the argument that there is much more water in the sea than in a tank and the parasites are more numerous. But that is of no consequence because the fishes immune system will get as strong as it needs to be to repel parasites and the more parasites there are, the stronger the immune system.


If you quarantine fish, there will be nothing for the fish to become immune to and any slight infection will crash the tank. Fish are not delicate creatures that need coddling and they almost never get sick. They have a fantastic immune system as long as we don’t try to short circuit it.

I can’t remember the last time I lost a fish to disease but it was probably in the 80s. Virtually all of my fish only die of old age or jumping out. I do lose fish due to my stupidity like if I buy something that I can’t properly feed like shrimpfish, twin spot gobies, orange spotted filefish etc. My tank is not set up for those fish and I should not buy them. But everything else, with no exception live long enough for me to get tired of them and I give them away or they die of old age.

I do not like clownfish but one day about 27 years ago I bought a baby of what I thought was a red hawkfish. It turned out to be a Fireclown and I still have it. She also spawns a few times a week as all my paired fish do as all healthy fish carry eggs all the time.


If you have a tank full of quarantined fish, I am not sure how you could get those fish immune because that quarantining may have destroyed the immune system of those fish. It would be a long process because the fish would have to be infected, and then cured for them to become immune and you may lose some fish.


It would be much easier to start an immune tank from the start. Remember, if you see some parasites, think of that as a good thing and not something that you need to dip or treat. Yes, you may lost some fish in the beginning but your fish will become immune to just about everything and you will never need medications or disease forums. Many fish die in quarantine or right after so that is also not a panacea.
I did not mention parameters because IMO they are not that important for fish health. Corals, yes, but not fish. My nitrates were 160 for years and I never had a fish die and they continued to spawn.
This is my method which has worked well for decades and I never lose fish to disease which is something I think we all strive for.

I have never quarantined my fish or corals. I get them and put them in a drip for 30 minutes or so but that’s it. I believe natural bacteria and virus builds the fish immune system and makes them stronger.
when I started my tank two years ago, I knew absolutely nothing about salt water tanks. However, I decided not to quarantine right from the beginning and I have never lost a fish or piece of coral due to bacteria or any virus’. Every fish I’ve lost has been due to clownfish killing one another, and I’ve never lost a coral

 

[JasPR]

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine)


I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else.

It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef because that fish will probably die. You may not see many spots on fish in a store because just about all stores use medications in their tanks to suppress the parasites. They have to because they get new fish all the time from all over the world and they can't change all the water and sterilize their tanks in between shipments. But all fish are infected in a store and even in the sea. They swim in a soup of parasites, viruses and bacteria, some good, some not so good.

In the sea those pathogens are kept in check by each other as viruses prey on parasites and bacteria and other forces such as things exuded from corals and tend to keep everything in check. Of course they all prey on fish.

But fish have been around almost as long as those things and they evolved long ago to live in harmony with all of them. Fish eat parasites with every meal and those parasites are processed in the fishes kidney among other places and that causes the fish to exude antiparisitic and antibacterial properties in their slime. They constantly do this and it keeps parasites and bacteria from killing the fish even though some parasites will get through to sample some fish flesh.


Anyway, that is the basis for my method that I slowly learned starting in about 1973 when I had to keep fish in copper continuously as we all did. (20 pennies to the gallon) Our tanks were not reefs, we fed flakes, changed the water to much and took out the rocks and dead corals to bleach them whenever they turned green which was almost weekly. The fish were always stressed and it was hard to keep even damsels.

Then I started feeding things other than flakes, things like frozen clams, pieces of fish and live blackworms. In 7 weeks my blue devils spawned and kept spawning for 7 years. Spawning damsels is no great Whop but in those days few people could keep them alive for a few weeks.

I gradually learned that bacteria and parasites would not kill my fish as long as I didn't medicate them. It was backward thinking but remember there was no internet and I didn't even know anyone with a salt tank so I was on my own.

When I added a fish it normally would get spots and sometimes die, but most of the time the spots receded and the fish was fine and didn't get sick when I added a new fish.

That was how I learned my method which is not really a method but a lack of a method.

With my method you can not quarantine because that short circuits the process. I actually want parasites and bacteria as that is what the fish was swimming with in the sea a week before.

I just put the fish in my tank and normally the fish starts eating right away and is fine. About half the time the fish will show a few spots but they are very few and disappear in a day or two. Yes they finished their life cycle on that fish and dropped off to infect something else, but they can't because those fish are constantly exposed to parasites so they are immune.

The things I do “not” do is quarantine.

I do not ever feed dry foods such as flakes or pellets as those foods are sterile.

I do not suck every bit of detritus out of my tank


I do however always feed something with live bacteria in it such as frozen foods.

I feed whole foods with guts such as clams, mysis, mussels and I use LRS foods which is a commercial food which I consider the best. But I still want to give the fish something that I know has living bacteria in it. I try to feed a few times a week some live worms but sometimes I can’t. Where I live now I can’t get them but I do raise live whiteworms which live in dirt. I bought a few of them years ago and that batch is still living and reproducing. I like the worms because of the living bacteria in their guts and the dirt they are living in. Some people that have immune tanks never use live worms so they may not be necessary, but I use them when I can. These things need not be fed every day, but at least occasionally. But all foods should have bacteria in it and if you feed nothing but commercial food, I am not sure how much living bacteria is in that because you don’t know how old it is or what temperature it was stored at.



If you have access to a salt water beach, collect a little mud and sprinkle it around the tank. That is for bacterial diversity. If you can’t get that, you can use garden soil with no pesticides or fertilizer.

(I did not invent that, it was “Robert Straughn” The Father of salt water fish keeping.)

The idea is that I want parasites living in the tank along with the fish. They will keep reproducing and trying to infect fish but they will fail.

I know the argument that there is much more water in the sea than in a tank and the parasites are more numerous. But that is of no consequence because the fishes immune system will get as strong as it needs to be to repel parasites and the more parasites there are, the stronger the immune system.


If you quarantine fish, there will be nothing for the fish to become immune to and any slight infection will crash the tank. Fish are not delicate creatures that need coddling and they almost never get sick. They have a fantastic immune system as long as we don’t try to short circuit it.

I can’t remember the last time I lost a fish to disease but it was probably in the 80s. Virtually all of my fish only die of old age or jumping out. I do lose fish due to my stupidity like if I buy something that I can’t properly feed like shrimpfish, twin spot gobies, orange spotted filefish etc. My tank is not set up for those fish and I should not buy them. But everything else, with no exception live long enough for me to get tired of them and I give them away or they die of old age.

I do not like clownfish but one day about 27 years ago I bought a baby of what I thought was a red hawkfish. It turned out to be a Fireclown and I still have it. She also spawns a few times a week as all my paired fish do as all healthy fish carry eggs all the time.


If you have a tank full of quarantined fish, I am not sure how you could get those fish immune because that quarantining may have destroyed the immune system of those fish. It would be a long process because the fish would have to be infected, and then cured for them to become immune and you may lose some fish.


It would be much easier to start an immune tank from the start. Remember, if you see some parasites, think of that as a good thing and not something that you need to dip or treat. Yes, you may lost some fish in the beginning but your fish will become immune to just about everything and you will never need medications or disease forums. Many fish die in quarantine or right after so that is also not a panacea.
I did not mention parameters because IMO they are not that important for fish health. Corals, yes, but not fish. My nitrates were 160 for years and I never had a fish die and they continued to spawn.
This is my method which has worked well for decades and I never lose fish to disease which is something I think we all strive for.

 

[JasPR]

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine)


I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else.

It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef because that fish will probably die. You may not see many spots on fish in a store because just about all stores use medications in their tanks to suppress the parasites. They have to because they get new fish all the time from all over the world and they can't change all the water and sterilize their tanks in between shipments. But all fish are infected in a store and even in the sea. They swim in a soup of parasites, viruses and bacteria, some good, some not so good.

In the sea those pathogens are kept in check by each other as viruses prey on parasites and bacteria and other forces such as things exuded from corals and tend to keep everything in check. Of course they all prey on fish.

But fish have been around almost as long as those things and they evolved long ago to live in harmony with all of them. Fish eat parasites with every meal and those parasites are processed in the fishes kidney among other places and that causes the fish to exude antiparisitic and antibacterial properties in their slime. They constantly do this and it keeps parasites and bacteria from killing the fish even though some parasites will get through to sample some fish flesh.


Anyway, that is the basis for my method that I slowly learned starting in about 1973 when I had to keep fish in copper continuously as we all did. (20 pennies to the gallon) Our tanks were not reefs, we fed flakes, changed the water to much and took out the rocks and dead corals to bleach them whenever they turned green which was almost weekly. The fish were always stressed and it was hard to keep even damsels.

Then I started feeding things other than flakes, things like frozen clams, pieces of fish and live blackworms. In 7 weeks my blue devils spawned and kept spawning for 7 years. Spawning damsels is no great Whop but in those days few people could keep them alive for a few weeks.

I gradually learned that bacteria and parasites would not kill my fish as long as I didn't medicate them. It was backward thinking but remember there was no internet and I didn't even know anyone with a salt tank so I was on my own.

When I added a fish it normally would get spots and sometimes die, but most of the time the spots receded and the fish was fine and didn't get sick when I added a new fish.

That was how I learned my method which is not really a method but a lack of a method.

With my method you can not quarantine because that short circuits the process. I actually want parasites and bacteria as that is what the fish was swimming with in the sea a week before.

I just put the fish in my tank and normally the fish starts eating right away and is fine. About half the time the fish will show a few spots but they are very few and disappear in a day or two. Yes they finished their life cycle on that fish and dropped off to infect something else, but they can't because those fish are constantly exposed to parasites so they are immune.

The things I do “not” do is quarantine.

I do not ever feed dry foods such as flakes or pellets as those foods are sterile.

I do not suck every bit of detritus out of my tank


I do however always feed something with live bacteria in it such as frozen foods.

I feed whole foods with guts such as clams, mysis, mussels and I use LRS foods which is a commercial food which I consider the best. But I still want to give the fish something that I know has living bacteria in it. I try to feed a few times a week some live worms but sometimes I can’t. Where I live now I can’t get them but I do raise live whiteworms which live in dirt. I bought a few of them years ago and that batch is still living and reproducing. I like the worms because of the living bacteria in their guts and the dirt they are living in. Some people that have immune tanks never use live worms so they may not be necessary, but I use them when I can. These things need not be fed every day, but at least occasionally. But all foods should have bacteria in it and if you feed nothing but commercial food, I am not sure how much living bacteria is in that because you don’t know how old it is or what temperature it was stored at.



If you have access to a salt water beach, collect a little mud and sprinkle it around the tank. That is for bacterial diversity. If you can’t get that, you can use garden soil with no pesticides or fertilizer.

(I did not invent that, it was “Robert Straughn” The Father of salt water fish keeping.)

The idea is that I want parasites living in the tank along with the fish. They will keep reproducing and trying to infect fish but they will fail.

I know the argument that there is much more water in the sea than in a tank and the parasites are more numerous. But that is of no consequence because the fishes immune system will get as strong as it needs to be to repel parasites and the more parasites there are, the stronger the immune system.


If you quarantine fish, there will be nothing for the fish to become immune to and any slight infection will crash the tank. Fish are not delicate creatures that need coddling and they almost never get sick. They have a fantastic immune system as long as we don’t try to short circuit it.

I can’t remember the last time I lost a fish to disease but it was probably in the 80s. Virtually all of my fish only die of old age or jumping out. I do lose fish due to my stupidity like if I buy something that I can’t properly feed like shrimpfish, twin spot gobies, orange spotted filefish etc. My tank is not set up for those fish and I should not buy them. But everything else, with no exception live long enough for me to get tired of them and I give them away or they die of old age.

I do not like clownfish but one day about 27 years ago I bought a baby of what I thought was a red hawkfish. It turned out to be a Fireclown and I still have it. She also spawns a few times a week as all my paired fish do as all healthy fish carry eggs all the time.


If you have a tank full of quarantined fish, I am not sure how you could get those fish immune because that quarantining may have destroyed the immune system of those fish. It would be a long process because the fish would have to be infected, and then cured for them to become immune and you may lose some fish.


It would be much easier to start an immune tank from the start. Remember, if you see some parasites, think of that as a good thing and not something that you need to dip or treat. Yes, you may lost some fish in the beginning but your fish will become immune to just about everything and you will never need medications or disease forums. Many fish die in quarantine or right after so that is also not a panacea.
I did not mention parameters because IMO they are not that important for fish health. Corals, yes, but not fish. My nitrates were 160 for years and I never had a fish die and they continued to spawn.
This is my method which has worked well for decades and I never lose fish to disease which is something I think we all strive for.

 

[JasPR]

Well I know this is a case of " do I believe you or my lie'n eyes" but that is some pretty poor science in some of that thinking, mate! First of all as far as micro biology goes there are many micro organisms that can't go from fresh water and terrestrial to marine environments. Secondly, once an animal is dead the guts and organs are filled with bacteria all right but the wrong kind. To none decayed food is important. More important would be to keep the bacteria and immune system of the fish filled and operating. It IS true that in the correct conditions fish have the ability to shed and protect from ectoparasites. But fish also have a very poor immune system compared to higher forms of life. And a condition known as G.A.S. ( General adaptive syndrome) rules when a fish that is captured, transported and settled in. Or 'even still have' an adaptation response and an active immune system. Once a fish is in third stage of adaptive decline, the immune system is too weak to fight off ectoparasites and will become a play ground for mass infestation. the fish might look normal but a week plus of no food, constant stress and therefor cortisone doses to the body has already shut down a large percentage of the immune response.

 

[Paul B]

Well I know this is a case of " do I believe you or my lie'n eyes" but that is some pretty poor science in some of that thinking, mate!

LOL, I came to these conclusions decades ago but being I am an electrician and not an ichthyologist I researched new scientific studies on fishes immune system, which by the way is actually much better than ours for what a fish has to protect itself from.

Their slime alone is an almost perfect defense from parasites. But being I posted and linked those scientific studies many times over many years and have the immune fish to show for it that have lived out their entire life time without never getting a single parasite, I have nothing to prove.

I have also posted my fish from babies to adults to dying from old age many times which is something very few, if any people have done. I have also never found to this day an old, healthy quarantined tank where the fish were never sick, never medicated are spawning and only dying of old age. Do you know of any?
That is scientific enough for me.

 

[fishmonkey]

@Paul B

Hey Paul your post inspired me to go no qt and I probably would not bother getting an aquarium if I did qt. My tank is a 40 breeder and only a few months old. I don’t want to bore you with my questions but I will anyways.

My first question is about how to acquire sand from the ocean. I live 30 minutes away from Malibu beach and I assume they have less chemicals in the water than let’s say Venice beach. Do I just go to the wet sand and pick that up or should I go let’s say waist deep and pick that up?

Second question is about buying live food ( LIVE pods/shrimp and LIVE phyto )from my Lfs. Is it worth it?

Lastly I have a juvenile tank raised clownfish I added a week ago and just noticed some white stuff on one’s face. I have multiple assumptions but worst case scenario he has brookynella and dies. How should I think about this? Is it a natural selection type of thing where I just replace fish that die until I get ones with good immunity or am I just doing something wrong?

 

[Paul B]

Fishmonkey, nice to met you. If you want to collect "bacteria" at Malibu Beach, see if you can find some porous looking rocks in a bay. I don't know if you have any bays there but there wouldn't be much bacteria on clean sand but a little sand wouldn't hurt if that is all you can get. I wouldn't fill my tank with it though as it is much to fine.

I have never bought a pod, shrimp or phyto in my life and don't see it as necessary but I imagine it won't hurt. Just a waste of money as I doubt any of that stuff will reproduce in your tank. I would get a culture of white worms and raise those which are very easy and practically free.

If it were not for live worms, I would not be in this hobby as they are the key to health IMO.

Feed live worms a couple of times a week and get live clams if you can. Freeze therm yourself and don't use LFS frozen clams.

Don't use any dry foods at all, not even pellets.
I can't tell from here what is wrong with your clownfish, but my method is not to buy fish, letting them get sick and replacing them. My fish basically only die from old age and never a communicable disease.

Good Luck
Paul

 

[salty joe]

Hey Paul, how often do you feed white worms?

 

[fishmonkey]

Fishmonkey, nice to met you. If you want to collect "bacteria" at Malibu Beach, see if you can find some porous looking rocks in a bay. I don't know if you have any bays there but there wouldn't be much bacteria on clean sand but a little sand wouldn't hurt if that is all you can get. I wouldn't fill my tank with it though as it is much to fine.

I have never bought a pod, shrimp or phyto in my life and don't see it as necessary but I imagine it won't hurt. Just a waste of money as I doubt any of that stuff will reproduce in your tank. I would get a culture of white worms and raise those which are very easy and practically free.

If it were not for live worms, I would not be in this hobby as they are the key to health IMO.

Feed live worms a couple of times a week and get live clams if you can. Freeze therm yourself and don't use LFS frozen clams.

Don't use any dry foods at all, not even pellets.
I can't tell from here what is wrong with your clownfish, but my method is not to buy fish, letting them get sick and replacing them. My fish basically only die from old age and never a communicable disease.

Good Luck
Paul

i really appreciate the response. guessing the hikiri frozen shrimp i bought from the lfs might as well go into the garbage then?

 

[Paul B]

Joe I feed then 2 or 3 times a week with other food. I think of them as suppliments for the bacteria, but I use LRS food and clams for most meals.

Fishmonkey, don't throw it away but suppliment it with live worms or clams. You can use that, it is fine, but not for the sole food.

 

[StPatrick89]

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine)


I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else.

It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef because that fish will probably die. You may not see many spots on fish in a store because just about all stores use medications in their tanks to suppress the parasites. They have to because they get new fish all the time from all over the world and they can't change all the water and sterilize their tanks in between shipments. But all fish are infected in a store and even in the sea. They swim in a soup of parasites, viruses and bacteria, some good, some not so good.

In the sea those pathogens are kept in check by each other as viruses prey on parasites and bacteria and other forces such as things exuded from corals and tend to keep everything in check. Of course they all prey on fish.

But fish have been around almost as long as those things and they evolved long ago to live in harmony with all of them. Fish eat parasites with every meal and those parasites are processed in the fishes kidney among other places and that causes the fish to exude antiparisitic and antibacterial properties in their slime. They constantly do this and it keeps parasites and bacteria from killing the fish even though some parasites will get through to sample some fish flesh.


Anyway, that is the basis for my method that I slowly learned starting in about 1973 when I had to keep fish in copper continuously as we all did. (20 pennies to the gallon) Our tanks were not reefs, we fed flakes, changed the water to much and took out the rocks and dead corals to bleach them whenever they turned green which was almost weekly. The fish were always stressed and it was hard to keep even damsels.

Then I started feeding things other than flakes, things like frozen clams, pieces of fish and live blackworms. In 7 weeks my blue devils spawned and kept spawning for 7 years. Spawning damsels is no great Whop but in those days few people could keep them alive for a few weeks.

I gradually learned that bacteria and parasites would not kill my fish as long as I didn't medicate them. It was backward thinking but remember there was no internet and I didn't even know anyone with a salt tank so I was on my own.

When I added a fish it normally would get spots and sometimes die, but most of the time the spots receded and the fish was fine and didn't get sick when I added a new fish.

That was how I learned my method which is not really a method but a lack of a method.

With my method you can not quarantine because that short circuits the process. I actually want parasites and bacteria as that is what the fish was swimming with in the sea a week before.

I just put the fish in my tank and normally the fish starts eating right away and is fine. About half the time the fish will show a few spots but they are very few and disappear in a day or two. Yes they finished their life cycle on that fish and dropped off to infect something else, but they can't because those fish are constantly exposed to parasites so they are immune.

The things I do “not” do is quarantine.

I do not ever feed dry foods such as flakes or pellets as those foods are sterile.

I do not suck every bit of detritus out of my tank


I do however always feed something with live bacteria in it such as frozen foods.

I feed whole foods with guts such as clams, mysis, mussels and I use LRS foods which is a commercial food which I consider the best. But I still want to give the fish something that I know has living bacteria in it. I try to feed a few times a week some live worms but sometimes I can’t. Where I live now I can’t get them but I do raise live whiteworms which live in dirt. I bought a few of them years ago and that batch is still living and reproducing. I like the worms because of the living bacteria in their guts and the dirt they are living in. Some people that have immune tanks never use live worms so they may not be necessary, but I use them when I can. These things need not be fed every day, but at least occasionally. But all foods should have bacteria in it and if you feed nothing but commercial food, I am not sure how much living bacteria is in that because you don’t know how old it is or what temperature it was stored at.



If you have access to a salt water beach, collect a little mud and sprinkle it around the tank. That is for bacterial diversity. If you can’t get that, you can use garden soil with no pesticides or fertilizer.

(I did not invent that, it was “Robert Straughn” The Father of salt water fish keeping.)

The idea is that I want parasites living in the tank along with the fish. They will keep reproducing and trying to infect fish but they will fail.

I know the argument that there is much more water in the sea than in a tank and the parasites are more numerous. But that is of no consequence because the fishes immune system will get as strong as it needs to be to repel parasites and the more parasites there are, the stronger the immune system.


If you quarantine fish, there will be nothing for the fish to become immune to and any slight infection will crash the tank. Fish are not delicate creatures that need coddling and they almost never get sick. They have a fantastic immune system as long as we don’t try to short circuit it.

I can’t remember the last time I lost a fish to disease but it was probably in the 80s. Virtually all of my fish only die of old age or jumping out. I do lose fish due to my stupidity like if I buy something that I can’t properly feed like shrimpfish, twin spot gobies, orange spotted filefish etc. My tank is not set up for those fish and I should not buy them. But everything else, with no exception live long enough for me to get tired of them and I give them away or they die of old age.

I do not like clownfish but one day about 27 years ago I bought a baby of what I thought was a red hawkfish. It turned out to be a Fireclown and I still have it. She also spawns a few times a week as all my paired fish do as all healthy fish carry eggs all the time.


If you have a tank full of quarantined fish, I am not sure how you could get those fish immune because that quarantining may have destroyed the immune system of those fish. It would be a long process because the fish would have to be infected, and then cured for them to become immune and you may lose some fish.


It would be much easier to start an immune tank from the start. Remember, if you see some parasites, think of that as a good thing and not something that you need to dip or treat. Yes, you may lost some fish in the beginning but your fish will become immune to just about everything and you will never need medications or disease forums. Many fish die in quarantine or right after so that is also not a panacea.
I did not mention parameters because IMO they are not that important for fish health. Corals, yes, but not fish. My nitrates were 160 for years and I never had a fish die and they continued to spawn.
This is my method which has worked well for decades and I never lose fish to disease which is something I think we all strive for.

Dag, I feel like I just listed to a deep rap cypher. Medications, and additives are a money trap. Same way we keep buying medications as humans. It’s all a money game.

 

[Paul B]

Speaking of scientific evidence compared to anecdotal. My wife has MS for about 23 years. She takes a shot every few days and it is supposed to slow down the progression. But the researchers and scientists who invented the stuff which by the way costs $44,000.00 a year have no idea how or why it works.

They came to their decisions to sell this stuff entirely on conjecture and anecdotal evidence from people using it. It "seems" to slow down the progression so they use it in the treatment of MS. (Of course they tested it on many people) But they don't know how it works and sometimes it doesn't matter. With test subjects it seemed to slow down the number of lesions over a period of time compared to a test group.

Many people's tanks on these forums are successful and most of them use an entirely different approach than I do.
To me, no matter what method you use, a successful tank is an eco system. ( as I said this numerous times) A tank where the fish need no medication, quarantine, coddling, vitamins or anything else. Much, but not all of the food they eat they find in the tank which should have "somewhat" of a food chain. The female fish should always fill with eggs and the fish should only die of old age.

That is the only criteria of a successful tank.
The tank owners can only state in anecdotal "facts" as to why their tanks are successful because in most cases, they don't now exactly why so we can try to replicate their methods if we like or of course we can look for a scientist who doesn't have a tank but works for a company that pays him to figure things out in a lab. Then when the money runs out in a year or two they go on to work in Home Depot loading snow blowers in minivans.

IMO, to help your tank become a healthy eco system there are a few things that "I" feel should be done and some things that "I" feel shouldn't be done.

Of course I am vehemently against a long quarantine especially in a bare tank with PVC elbows as that is extremely stressful to any creature that just spent it's entire life in the sea. If that fish had arms, it would slit it's throat. :sick:

I am also totally against prophylactic treatments of any kind.


I feel a bare bottom tank is a recipe for disaster even though I am sure there are many bare bottom tanks. The bottom of the tank is a huge space and just itching for life to grow on it. The main problem with a bare bottom, or many sand bottoms is that it is two dimensional which of course means "things" can only grow on one plane. One surface.

A gravel bottom is like thousands of bare bottoms stacked on top of each other. Creatures, pods, worms, amphipods, fry etc can live throughout the entire thing and if you use a reverse undergravel filter, that life will flourish like the Hippies at Woodstock (google it)

Microscope life is the heart of our eco systems and if we don't have it and cultivate it we will have to supply our tanks with all the things our fish and corals need. All of that life in gravel from tiny snails, tube worms, corals, amphipods miniature shrimp, crustacean larvae etc, constantly spawns and that spawn is the beginning of an ecosystem that will help to support our corals and tiny fish.

 

[MnFish1]

Speaking of scientific evidence compared to anecdotal. My wife has MS for about 23 years. She takes a shot every few days and it is supposed to slow down the progression. But the researchers and scientists who invented the stuff which by the way costs $44,000.00 a year have no idea how or why it works.

They came to their decisions to sell this stuff entirely on conjecture and anecdotal evidence from people using it. It "seems" to slow down the progression so they use it in the treatment of MS. (Of course they tested it on many people) But they don't know how it works and sometimes it doesn't matter. With test subjects it seemed to slow down the number of lesions over a period of time compared to a test group.

Many people's tanks on these forums are successful and most of them use an entirely different approach than I do.
To me, no matter what method you use, a successful tank is an eco system. ( as I said this numerous times) A tank where the fish need no medication, quarantine, coddling, vitamins or anything else. Much, but not all of the food they eat they find in the tank which should have "somewhat" of a food chain. The female fish should always fill with eggs and the fish should only die of old age.

That is the only criteria of a successful tank.
The tank owners can only state in anecdotal "facts" as to why their tanks are successful because in most cases, they don't now exactly why so we can try to replicate their methods if we like or of course we can look for a scientist who doesn't have a tank but works for a company that pays him to figure things out in a lab. Then when the money runs out in a year or two they go on to work in Home Depot loading snow blowers in minivans.

IMO, to help your tank become a healthy eco system there are a few things that "I" feel should be done and some things that "I" feel shouldn't be done.

Of course I am vehemently against a long quarantine especially in a bare tank with PVC elbows as that is extremely stressful to any creature that just spent it's entire life in the sea. If that fish had arms, it would slit it's throat. :sick:

I am also totally against prophylactic treatments of any kind.


I feel a bare bottom tank is a recipe for disaster even though I am sure there are many bare bottom tanks. The bottom of the tank is a huge space and just itching for life to grow on it. The main problem with a bare bottom, or many sand bottoms is that it is two dimensional which of course means "things" can only grow on one plane. One surface.

A gravel bottom is like thousands of bare bottoms stacked on top of each other. Creatures, pods, worms, amphipods, fry etc can live throughout the entire thing and if you use a reverse undergravel filter, that life will flourish like the Hippies at Woodstock (google it)

Microscope life is the heart of our eco systems and if we don't have it and cultivate it we will have to supply our tanks with all the things our fish and corals need. All of that life in gravel from tiny snails, tube worms, corals, amphipods miniature shrimp, crustacean larvae etc, constantly spawns and that spawn is the beginning of an ecosystem that will help to support our corals and tiny fish.

This only partly on topic - you should watch the movie "Living Proof" one young actors story of MS. He now runs a non-profit. It goes into the items you wrote in the first paragraph

 

[GeoSquid]

Speaking of scientific evidence compared to anecdotal. My wife has MS for about 23 years. She takes a shot every few days and it is supposed to slow down the progression. But the researchers and scientists who invented the stuff which by the way costs $44,000.00 a year have no idea how or why it works.

They came to their decisions to sell this stuff entirely on conjecture and anecdotal evidence from people using it. It "seems" to slow down the progression so they use it in the treatment of MS. (Of course they tested it on many people) But they don't know how it works and sometimes it doesn't matter. With test subjects it seemed to slow down the number of lesions over a period of time compared to a test group.

Many people's tanks on these forums are successful and most of them use an entirely different approach than I do.
To me, no matter what method you use, a successful tank is an eco system. ( as I said this numerous times) A tank where the fish need no medication, quarantine, coddling, vitamins or anything else. Much, but not all of the food they eat they find in the tank which should have "somewhat" of a food chain. The female fish should always fill with eggs and the fish should only die of old age.

That is the only criteria of a successful tank.
The tank owners can only state in anecdotal "facts" as to why their tanks are successful because in most cases, they don't now exactly why so we can try to replicate their methods if we like or of course we can look for a scientist who doesn't have a tank but works for a company that pays him to figure things out in a lab. Then when the money runs out in a year or two they go on to work in Home Depot loading snow blowers in minivans.

IMO, to help your tank become a healthy eco system there are a few things that "I" feel should be done and some things that "I" feel shouldn't be done.

Of course I am vehemently against a long quarantine especially in a bare tank with PVC elbows as that is extremely stressful to any creature that just spent it's entire life in the sea. If that fish had arms, it would slit it's throat. :sick:

I am also totally against prophylactic treatments of any kind.


I feel a bare bottom tank is a recipe for disaster even though I am sure there are many bare bottom tanks. The bottom of the tank is a huge space and just itching for life to grow on it. The main problem with a bare bottom, or many sand bottoms is that it is two dimensional which of course means "things" can only grow on one plane. One surface.

A gravel bottom is like thousands of bare bottoms stacked on top of each other. Creatures, pods, worms, amphipods, fry etc can live throughout the entire thing and if you use a reverse undergravel filter, that life will flourish like the Hippies at Woodstock (google it)

Microscope life is the heart of our eco systems and if we don't have it and cultivate it we will have to supply our tanks with all the things our fish and corals need. All of that life in gravel from tiny snails, tube worms, corals, amphipods miniature shrimp, crustacean larvae etc, constantly spawns and that spawn is the beginning of an ecosystem that will help to support our corals and tiny fish.

I follow this guy on some topics and in this link he's talking about MS. Might be worth a listen.

Treating Multiple Sclerosis with the Swank MS Diet | NutritionFacts.org

A plant-based diet may not only be the safest treatment for multiple sclerosis; it may also be the most effective.

nutritionfacts.org

 

[Paul B]

Thank you GeoSquid. We actually know about the Dr. Swank diet as it affects MS and have been following it for years.
We hardly ever eat any saturated fat and my wife eats much less than I do. (yesterday we had an impossible burger made from plants)

My wife "never" uses butter and has red meat maybe two or three times a year. (I never ordered a steak in a restaurant in my life and we go out to eat 2 or 3 times a week) We eat mostly seafood, vegetables and a little chicken.

Our diet may be the reason my wife went about 20 years before she had to use a cane and just uses a rolling walker for about a year now.

I am not sure how this new medication works but she gets the first dose tomorrow as her disease is progressing now.

 

[GeoSquid]

Thank you GeoSquid. We actually know about the Dr. Swank diet as it affects MS and have been following it for years.
We hardly ever eat any saturated fat and my wife eats much less than I do. (yesterday we had an impossible burger made from plants)

My wife "never" uses butter and has red meat maybe two or three times a year. (I never ordered a steak in a restaurant in my life and we go out to eat 2 or 3 times a week) We eat mostly seafood, vegetables and a little chicken.

Our diet may be the reason my wife went about 20 years before she had to use a cane and just uses a rolling walker for about a year now.

I am not sure how this new medication works but she gets the first dose tomorrow as her disease is progressing now.

I figured you guys had already read about everything there is out there on the subject. I feel most of what ails us now days is environmental/diet etc. I'm in my 50's and had high blood pressure since my 20's even though I was always in great shape. They told me it was hereditary. I was on medication for about 20 years but started to effect my kidneys. They switched my meds and my hands swelled up! I felt there was a better way, so I researched every food that lowers BP. I now make a daily smoothie of power greens, beets, flax, chia, banana's and blueberries. I've been off the meds for 3 years now and my BP is better than it was when taking medication. Doctors now days just want to pair a pill with a symptom and don't even consider diet. I always make a joke to my family when they come back from a doctors visit and ask them what color of pill they got.
I hope your wife sees good results.

 

[Paul B]

I do something similar for my wife. She gets severe pain in her legs and and ankles every night and I have to squeeze her ankles to help with the pain. It's nerve pain and normal pain pills don't do anything for it.

I researched every vegetable that reduces inflammation and then I saw what Montell Williams revealed. (he has MS)

I juice beets, carrots, and apples. Then I put in a blender tart, unsweetened cherry juice, Fresh ginger, fresh horse radish, Turmeric, black pepper and the most important thing, a lot of mixed berries.

I mix all that together and make 4 quarts about ever 2 1/2 weeks. She drinks a small glass of it every day. If she forgets to drink it, the severe pain is back that night. It works like a charm. I have been making this so far for about 2 years.

 

[GeoSquid]

Wow, that is great that it works so well. I'll bet you would never get that kind of information from a doctor.