The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[EmdeReef]

@Matt Carden Below are pics of my last DT. Does it look "sterile" to you??

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Very nice Humble!!!

Although I struggle to see microbes in those pics ;Pompus

 

[Thales]

Mature system as in a couple of years old or more?

I think it is 18 years old. I'd have to check the last article about the system to know for sure.

 

[Paul B]

. Fish do not eat ich and develop antiparasitic properties to the parasite

That is your opinion, not science.

 

[Humblefish]

Very nice Humble!!!

Although I struggle to see microbes in those pics ;Pompus

After maintaining a SPS only system for years, that tank was a much needed "break".

 

[Thales]

That is your opinion, not science.

Science my friend. Here is one of the papers in which stomach contents of Labroides dimididatus were examined and no Ich was found.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...Diet_of_the_Cleaner_Fish_Labroides_dimidiatus

Also, the anecdote doesn't track - you don't build up an immunity to lice by eating lice.

 

[Matt Carden]

You do realize there are other treatments/methods beside copper rite?

For ich?

 

[Thales]

For ich?

For large groups of fish Chloroquine phosphate has been successful, and for small batches, Transfer Method is so flexible and simple and effective. Hypo also works. For many, copper is very out of favor - it is hard to manage and finicky, though I think those mean the same thing!

 

[Matt Carden]

@Thales I was talking about the QT tank.

 

[Thales]

@Thales I was talking about the QT tank.

So was I.

I seem to be missing something though.

 

[HotRocks]

For large groups of fish Chloroquine phosphate has been successful, and for small batches, Transfer Method is so flexible and simple and effective. Hypo also works. For many, copper is very out of favor - it is hard to manage and finicky, though I think those mean the same thing!

IMO much of the finikyness and difficulty of copper use is easily avoided if you are willing to spend 75 bucks. Which is less than most people's favorite fish or coral costs.

Hanna checker and a box of reagents.

If the tank it's being used in is set up properly, and dosed by syringe it truly is easy to achieve your desired target.

I don't see much appetite suppression treating with copper power at 1.75ppm.

I'd agree using visual test methods and certain products it can be very finicky.

CP is a great product as well. There are just a few issues with it. The main one is not having a suitable "in home" test method currently available to monitor the concentration.

 

[Matt Carden]

Check this closely related topic survey thread started:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/having-success-with-your-fish-growing-old-in-your-tank.542835/

 

[Lowell Lemon]

So I have posted this in a couple of other threads that touch on the same subject of fish disease and management by different methods or no methods at all. But this fact about sea water fascinates me and makes me wonder all sorts of things about how our aquariums actually work or could work better.

There are about 1 million bacteria per militer of sea water and about 10 times that in the number of viruses in the same amount of sea water. This gives you an indication of the ability of marine fish and invertebrates to both consume and resist this soup of potential attackers. So with that evidence how should we manage our aquariums properly? There must exist some competing communities of bacteria, viruses, and protozoa that help the fish and inverts survive and exploit their environment. We try to manage the quantity of these organisms by D.E., U.V., Ozone, and other biological and mechanical filtration means.
If we understood the complexity of those communities we could provide better treatment protocols and find ways to advantage good bacteria and viruses over disease causing ones. Perhaps it is just an imbalance in certain communities of organisms that leads to disease in our aquariums?

Source of information for bacteria and virus count in Sea water, Eric Collins, Word press archives.

I did notice that ecotocommensals like Trichodina are responsible for consuming epithelial cells and plankton on or around living fish. Seems like one relationship that when in balance is a commensal relationship and not detrimental until certain water quality or population densities become a factor in the disease process.

 

[MnFish1]

Except for the 76 day part. All the qt threads propose using a bare bottom tank with pvc essentially sterile except for nitrifying autotrophic bacteria. The methods discussed for fish are usually 30 days in duration while everything else is the 76 days.

I dont think you really know this. in any case - the 76 day part was apparently (according to the author) the QT protocol - I think (as I said many posts ago) that there are many many QT protocols. I disagree with you that 'all he QT threads propose' - because you haven't taken a poll of 'all QT' threads - because my opinion (and I havent taken a poll either) - is that many people take rock from their sump, etc and put that in their QT tank (to me this makes no sense) - but apparently people do it. Just saying - there are many methods to 'QT'. IMHO, very few (as others have said already) define QT the way PaulB does (i.e. 76 days). Of course when I said that - well lets just say I'm glad there aren't Salem witch trials possible on the internet....

 

[MnFish1]

@Matt Carden Below are pics of my last DT. Does it look "sterile" to you??

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Nice tank

 

[MnFish1]

I advocate using a (somewhat) sterile QT to best administer medications, if needed.

I’ve never suggested setting up a sterile DT , only disease-free.

Unlike some people here feel or think - there is no such thing as a sterile QT tank or a sterile Display tank - that - despite some opinion here - is common sense. They are just absent the parasites one wants to exclude....

 

[MnFish1]

That is your opinion, not science.

No Paul - that is science - it is also common sense. If everything a fish ate caused it to become 'immune' to that 'thing' - the fish would be immune to its own food - causing a multitude of problems. Come on.

 

[MnFish1]

For ich?

Right Matt - Try chloroquine...

 

[DrewBrees713]

Yup cloroquine phosphate is not as rough for the fishh vs copper. And im a big fan of TTM.

 

[MnFish1]

Btw - I have focused on CI for what I have brought up - god forbid - because there is a lot more data on CI than velvet. I am surprised that Atoll and Paul dont mention that. My guess is that if they added a fish weekly to their tank from the average internet supplier - that in 6 months all of the fish in their 'immune' tanks would be dead. When it comes to CI I agree that most healthy fish can fight it off - if its a strain that is not that virulent - and not in high concentration in the tank. That said - I think velvet is a different problem.

 

[EmdeReef]

Btw - I have focused on CI for what I have brought up - god forbid - because there is a lot more data on CI than velvet. I am surprised that Atoll and Paul dont mention that. My guess is that if they added a fish weekly to their tank from the average internet supplier - that in 6 months all of the fish in their 'immune' tanks would be dead. When it comes to CI I agree that most healthy fish can fight it off - if its a strain that is not that virulent - and not in high concentration in the tank. That said - I think velvet is a different problem.

Let’s not forget uronema or gram negative bacteria like vibrio...