The Triton "method": Separating fact from flawed assumptions...

[Triton US]

In your research/testing what is the average number of tests a subject had to go through to reach the NSW "Baseline" ? I ask because I am confused as to how the tests can effectively help us achieve parity with natural seawater in a reasonable amount of time. I do not doubt the accuracy of the tests but am concerned with the time it takes to receive results. If we should allow two weeks for the shipping/testing cycle to be completed how can the test results be relevant to the current state of our water parameters? To me it would seem that the tank husbandry/current dosing regimen would have to remain incredibly consistent for the system to work. It's what we all strive for but, in all honesty, does that consistently happen across the reef-keeping population?

I agree with your assumption that we all want the best possible results within a reasonable amount of effort/cost, so if there is a two week lag what is the average time/# of tests it takes to hit the baseline and what number of tests, say annually, is needed for the maintenance phase?

Please take this criticism positively as I would love to utilize the service...just seeking to understand the big picture. I abhor the titration testing that is currently available and would love for someone to take this part of the hobby off my hands If there is other information I missed out on in another thread/site please let me know. Super excited about this!

These are great questions/points, and we appreciate the feedback!

Many Triton users will tell you that it takes several (at least 3) tests to get you "in the ballpark", if you will. The first test tells you where you're at before you affect changes. A second test would be conducted after you started "tweaking" parameters, to see the affect of the corrections, and a third test to see what your consumption rate starts to look like. Future tests would really help establish the baseline. In a perfect world, we'd be testing weekly or more frequently to really lock stuff in, but that is not really financially or logistically feasible. Monthly would be a terrific test interval. The concern about the sample result "lag time" is understandable. Remember, even though we are trying to get our aquarium water to fall into a range close to NSW, the point of Triton is not to chase numbers to the point of being obsessive. It's more about consistency and finding a range with minimum variables. Sure, conditions in a given aquarium could change in two weeks. (as an aside- the water samples will not degrade during the collection-transit-testing interval to any degree that would significantly alter test results). The point of the "method" is to develop a routine. This includes, among other things, a regular daily dosing program to achieve NSW ranges, utilizing the "Base Elementz, and then supplement what is being consumed by doing only what testing dictates is deficient within the test period. I have no doubt that there are many long-term Triton users in Europe that would give you more real-world-experience-based input on this very relevant topic.

Thanks so much for your questions and input.

-Scott

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

My only issue with this stuff is calling it a "Method". Ok, so what I've been doing for five years:testing my water parameters, dosing 3 part plus trace and doing water changes is now called the "Triton Method" because the water tests are more accurate? Seems like shaky marketing for what will end up being a very expensive venture. Will I have 25 bottles of various trace elements on my shelf and dosing hundreds of drops of various ones daily? Because that is what it sounds like would be needed to tweek the levels of these elements based off the very detailed tests.
Like ok, my Molybdenum is too low and my Boron is too high. How would I raise and lower these elements respectively under the Triton Method and do so in an economical way to achieve the desired results in a reasonable amount of time. And how would these results justify the cost involved?

 

[Triton US]

My only issue with this stuff is calling it a "Method". Ok, so what I've been doing for five years:testing my water parameters, dosing 3 part plus trace and doing water changes is now called the "Triton Method" because the water tests are more accurate? Seems like shaky marketing for what will end up being a very expensive venture. Will I have 25 bottles of various trace elements on my shelf and dosing hundreds of drops of various ones daily? Because that is what it sounds like would be needed to tweek the levels of these elements based off the very detailed tests.
Like ok, my Molybdenum is too low and my Boron is too high. How would I raise and lower these elements respectively under the Triton Method and do so in an economical way to achieve the desired results in a reasonable amount of time. And how would these results justify the cost involved?

Excellent questions.

First off, the "method" moniker is in reference to the associated husbandry and philosophy of husbandry that were outlined here and in Triton's materials and user forums in Europe. It's practiced by many reefers around the world, and has been for almost 7 years. Assuming that Triton refers to its approach as a "method" simply because it offers more accurate tests or some trace elements and such really misses the point entirely. One definition of a "method" is "[FONT=arial, sans-serif]a particular form of procedure for accomplishing or approaching something, especially a systematic or established one." Just because it may be resemble superficially something someone is already doing doesn't mean it can't be legitimately considered a "method." Remember, there is more to it than just testing and dosing stuff. There is a philosophical approach to controlling variables, embracing nutrient export, and other practices which Triton utilizes that certainly would qualify it as a "method."
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The whole idea of Triton is not to create "dependency" on adding all sorts of stuff..I don't know of any Triton users that need to add 25 different things daily to their reef. The "Base Elementz" solution has a balanced composition that will affectively achieve a baseline NSW range with continued use. The point is too simplify reef keeping and minimize variables. The supplemental dosing is simply to make up for things that are consumed by your coral population at a higher rate. It is typically only a few elements in most systems, and the trace elements in pure form are available from Triton. The testing confirms the need and amounts required with a high degree of accuracy. That's where the testing comes in. What's "shaky" about that?

As far as the cost involved...You'll have to compare to your current methodology of multiple expendable liquid reagent test kits, three part additives, trace elements, and regular water changes to really get a feel. In the end, you may find that working with Triton's "method" is really no more expensive than anything else you might be doing...and the results would justify the cost involved in the same manner any current methods you utilize justify their costs.

In the end, as we've stated repeatedly- Triton is not the "best" way or "only correct way" to run a reef aquarium. It's a methodology and approach that embraces a variety of techniques, information, and products to achieve a healthy, thriving reef system. You could use Triton to verify the effectiveness of any current technique you're using..in fact, it would make a lot of sense to do that. If you decide to follow Triton's wholistic approach, you will be able to really judge for yourself the value and effectiveness.

Thanks,

Scott

 

[SantaMonica]

Glad to find this.

I was originally contacted by the Euro Triton people (at least I think it was the same people) a few months ago about them distributing our scrubbers, so I have since been trying to understand the method better.

 

[gpwdr]

Yes, we really think that it represents a major step out of the days of "dump-stuff-in-your-water-'just-because'-and-hope-for-a-good-result..." A very exciting time to be a reefer!

-Scott

Hi Scott

Triton is selling a salt called PURE. Can we see a Triton test on their own salt?

Gene

 

[currentking]

ok, can someone please explain this in lamens terms? I believe from what I have read this to be what this is about. we use the triton test to see where our perimeters are, then Triton gives us a mix of additives that best fits our aquarium that we use and continue to test with Triton and no more water changes? is this a process that will be $50 a month? $100? $200? Is it worth it for smaller aquariums? sorry if I sound dumb here but just trying to wrap my hands around it.

 

[Triton US]

Hi Scott

Triton is selling a salt called PURE. Can we see a Triton test on their own salt?

Gene

Hi Gene,

I'm sure we can get a test result. It's a "base" salt without every trace element. It's intended use is to get you started with Triton and you'd adjust based on test results...
-Scott

 

[Triton US]

ok, can someone please explain this in lamens terms? I believe from what I have read this to be what this is about. we use the triton test to see where our perimeters are, then Triton gives us a mix of additives that best fits our aquarium that we use and continue to test with Triton and no more water changes? is this a process that will be $50 a month? $100? $200? Is it worth it for smaller aquariums? sorry if I sound dumb here but just trying to wrap my hands around it.

You are absolutely not "dumb.." Great questions.

Triton tests will provide you with a report on the trace element concentration in your water. You would potentially adjust these levels based on testing results. The backbone of Triton's system is a four part dosing solution called "Base Elementz", whocih contains a balanced calcium/alkalinity/trace element component. You'd add this via dower daily in quantities predetermined for your system. Any trace elements that you'd dose above and beyond that would be dictated solely on test results, to bring your system parameters into the desired range. It's not an onerous, endless system of adding this and that on a continuous basis. It can certainly work on smaller aquariums.

In summary, it's about only adding exactly what is needed, only in amounts determined by the needs of your animals. Obviously there is a bit more to it than just that, as we've discussed before (and we will cover in more detail in future pieces), but it's a great way to ru na healthy reef...Not the only way- just a good way!

Thanks,

Scott

 

[bbtm64]

I recently ordered a test set from Unique Corals. I'm extremely interested in seeing the results and recommendations.

 

[JimWelsh]

In the business of analytical chemistry, there is a huge difference between some absolute focus on the most stringent scientific concepts of accuracy and precision, and a focus on "fitness for purpose" to the client.

Well put, Scott. I couldn't agree more! :bigsmile:

 

[lpslover]

Interesting Stuff

Toying with the idea of trying Triton. Couple questions:

What is the shelf life of the solutions? Particularly the mixed base solutions? I have a small nano tank, and 10 liters of each solution is likely to last at least 2-3 years. Will the solutions still be reliable for 3-4 years? Or would I potentially have to throw out the solutions and start fresh solutions every 1-2 years? This is an important part of my understanding the economics in my situation.

Secondly, I am a big zeovit devotee. I hate refugiums and have never had any long term success with them. I don't use the zeovit elements, just the core nutrient control system. Has anyone tried running zeovit with the triton elements and testing? Has anyone noticed any particular trends with the way they interact?

 

[lpslover]

Also, if part of the concept behind Triton is that water changes are often more likely to cause disruption than to be beneficial, what is recommended for introducing new fish/corals (replacing water lost to drip acclimation and dipping). In my tiny tank, acclimating and dipping a new batch of livestock can easily require removing and replacing 10-25% of the system volume. Would the "pure" mix be the optimal solution for this? If so, how long is the mixed pure stable for?

 

[Triton US]

Toying with the idea of trying Triton. Couple questions:

What is the shelf life of the solutions? Particularly the mixed base solutions? I have a small nano tank, and 10 liters of each solution is likely to last at least 2-3 years. Will the solutions still be reliable for 3-4 years? Or would I potentially have to throw out the solutions and start fresh solutions every 1-2 years? This is an important part of my understanding the economics in my situation.

Secondly, I am a big zeovit devotee. I hate refugiums and have never had any long term success with them. I don't use the zeovit elements, just the core nutrient control system. Has anyone tried running zeovit with the triton elements and testing? Has anyone noticed any particular trends with the way they interact?

I spoke with Ehsan at Triton this morning, and he advised that the Elementz can last approximately 5 years at around 68 degrees or more, otherwise they will begin to precipitate out sooner. I don't have any experience with ZeoVit, so I hope some of our other forum participants can chime in!

Thanks...Hope this helps!

Scott

 

[Triton US]

Also, if part of the concept behind Triton is that water changes are often more likely to cause disruption than to be beneficial, what is recommended for introducing new fish/corals (replacing water lost to drip acclimation and dipping). In my tiny tank, acclimating and dipping a new batch of livestock can easily require removing and replacing 10-25% of the system volume. Would the "pure" mix be the optimal solution for this? If so, how long is the mixed pure stable for?

Another great question. I think the point is that significant water changes do create some variables that can deviate from Triton's stated goal of stability. That being said, there will no doubt be situations where water changes are necessary, particularly in a small tank. As far as what salt to use...I'd simply use whatever salt mix you are using (Tropic Marin Pro is the "preferred" salt for Triton). And when you think about it, how often will you be adding new animals to this small tank? I'd think that the majority of the time, the tank will be stable...

Scott

 

[Triggreef]

I love seeing everyone post their triton results. My own first test, saved (IMO) what was left of my tank and a second test a couple months after confirmed that all my levels were spot on (or at least very close) after only weeks of dosing "Elementz". It is nice to be done with all the random bottles of this and that. It's also nice to see corals recovering and growing again. I almost lost a scoly in my crash which steadily declined through december and only the last couple weeks has begun showing feeders again. Thats only one example, but I lost thousands($) of coral just before discovering Triton, and Triton helped me to save thousands($) of coral before it was too late.

If your considering a test and you can afford it, go for it. $50 is very little cost to know exactly where you stand with all you've invested into your tank.

 

[joefishUC]

I spoke with Ehsan at Triton this morning, and he advised that the Elementz can last approximately 5 years at around 68 degrees or more, otherwise they will begin to precipitate out sooner. I don't have any experience with ZeoVit, so I hope some of our other forum participants can chime in!

Thanks...Hope this helps!

Scott

Regarding using Zeovit for nutrient control: Nutrient cycling in a triton system is achieved through the growth of macro algae in the filter area and bacteria in the entire system (in and on the live rock, on detritus, on all exposed surface area, etc.) Phosphate reactors are also utilized on systems that show stubborn levels of higher than desired phosphates. These parts of the method are simple to maintain and they flat out work which is why they are a part of the Triton system. In systems that don't house large bio-loads, one could probably experiment without the use of the algae filter and probably achieve positive results. Working with bacteria to cycle nutrients is something that i support and look forward to seeing more of. One great way determine if your zeovit nutrient system is performing as promised is to study how the corals are behaving. If the growth and color is good, unwanted algae is minimal and coral polyps are extended then it would appear you are on the right track. Getting your water tested by the ICP machine every once in a while will also confirm the progress.
One reason why Triton keeps things simple is so that people can more easily recreate the method. The least amount of components and pieces involved, the more likely people will be to have success with it. In the past when people added bio pellet reactors, calcium reactors, performed regular water changes, etc to their triton style setups, the amount of variables seemed to cause issues here and there. (bio pellets leached copper, calcium reactors didn't provide many key trace elements, water changes shocked the system, etc) When you strip down the art of reef keeping to the very basics, you eliminate many variables and cause for future problems. Be sure to let us know how the tank runs with the Zeovit nutrient control system.

 

[lpslover]

As I mentioned in my original question, Zeovit works very well for me. I have run it on several tanks over the last few years and it's great. I only run the core nutrient control (zeobak, zeofood, zeostart and Zeovit) and nutrition products (AminoAcidLPS, Pohl's Xtra, and Pohl's Coral Vitalizer). I don't use their trace elements. I have previously tried chaeto, bio pellets, vodka, vinegar, deep sand beds, red sea's NO3PO4X, and vodka/sugar/vinegar for nutrient control. With regards to nutrition I have previously used seachem aminos or aquavitro aminos, and as orbit acid powder, or the Red Sea nutrition A&B combo.

Zeovit has been more successful and stable for me. Chaeto and deep sand beds have been great for lowering nitrate IME, but I always had high phosphate I had to manage with lots of GFO, or nitrate dosing, or in the stubborn sky high levels with my deep sand bed tank, regular lanthanum chloride dosing was the only way to maintain low let alone ultra low phosphate levels. Bio pellets, Vodka, Vinegar, Vodka/Sugar/Vinegar, and NO3PO4X were better at managing phosphate as well as nitrate but they were never very stable for me. Everything would be going fine, no changes to my husbandry or livestock, stable low or ultra low nutrients for 8-12 weeks, then all of a sudden I'd have a massive nutrient spike. Or I'd go out of town over the weekend and miss two doses, and have the whole thing come unraveled causing a massive nutrient spike. With Zeovit I have never had any of these problems. I have stable ultra low nutrients, sparklingly clear water, colorful growing fully expanded coral, and no crazy random spikes, even when I leave town for a weekend and skip a dose or two, no problem.

Nutrition wise, I feed heavily daily with cyclopeeze, rotifers, and phyto. So I could probably get
Away with no added nutrition and be fine. But I'm a reefer and we like to over do it right? The seachem aminos also have iodine, so I was having issues with too high iodine levels, the aquavitro caused tended to cause red slime issues even in low or ultra low nutrient conditions, and the Red Sea combo was just scary. With that I had a shrimp dropping dead for no reason, all the fish would start breathing faster for about an hour after it was added, and the corals rather than opening up to greet the food would close up. So that lasted about three days, and yes I was following the directions. Love my ascorbic acid powder, but the Pohl's extra I suspect is the same thing, and that is already liquid, so much more convenient.

Neatest thing about Zeovit is that when you agitate the media daily and the bacterial placks cloud the water as a result, my filter feeders go nuts, they love that stuff, it's like they are on crack. So I like to think this extra bonus food source makes all the difference. I usually feed shortly thereafter, and so they enjoy a nightly all you can eat buffet.

Given all of the things I love about zeovit, I am not giving that up. I have heard some intriguing things about Triton, but also knew they recommended macro algae based nutrient control, which I won't ever do again. So I was just wondering if anyone had any experience marrying the two methods to get the best of both? I agree simplicity and fewer variables are what has led to triton's success and it's appeal, but as far as I'm convinced there are no more, and possibly fewer variables with Zeovit than with macroalgae.

When I try it in a couple months as I run out of my existing products (Red Sea foundations and colors, which I've been liking okay, though I'm not sure they are much of an improvement over the hodgepodge I was using before) I'll report back, and let you know how the combination works.

 

[gdemos]

Scott, Please help me understand a best approach... it has been stated by Triton (paraphrasing), that 'use of biopellet reactors, calcium reactors, add complexity and undesirable impurities'. Yet, perhaps usurping the proposed Triton Method, Triton is now marketing specific media for calcium reactors; so I might conclude that Triton will also release biopellet media in the near future for those of us that like them?

If my intent is to keep my Biopellet reactor (because it is working at its primary purpose of 'handling' NO3 and PO4 in my Heavy Bio-Load SPS System), and to keep my Ca Reactor (because it is effective at maintaining Ca, Alk, and Mg according to my home- testing).... lets say the test that I just submitted samples for comes back with some undesirable findings... How does Triton propose I balance the system with the Biopellet and Calcium Reactor running since i do not want to eliminate them from the system? Presumably i can adjust reactor effluent (and/or CO2 for CaReactor), and avoid Triton's 4 part? Perhaps just the tweaking doses of other trace elements if I am out of whack? Will there be specific instructions for dosing requirements (specific to the test results)?

Also my intent is to test with Triton perhaps monthly for 3 months, and subsequently on a quarterly basis; yet during the interim i will maintain my home testing regimen (as faulty as it may be). so how does this approach avoid the "numbers chase" that Triton declares is Not the objective.

Finally, it would be tremendously helpful if Triton released a clearly defined case for the purpose of each element/compound tested, its benefit to the reef/coral, species known consumption levels, and signs to look for if levels are on target or off target.

Thanks for clarifying. I look forward to my test results and hope i can figure out how to remedy any problems discovered.
-Greg

 

[Triton US]

Scott, Please help me understand a best approach... it has been stated by Triton (paraphrasing), that 'use of biopellet reactors, calcium reactors, add complexity and undesirable impurities'. Yet, perhaps usurping the proposed Triton Method, Triton is now marketing specific media for calcium reactors; so I might conclude that Triton will also release biopellet media in the near future for those of us that like them?

If my intent is to keep my Biopellet reactor (because it is working at its primary purpose of 'handling' NO3 and PO4 in my Heavy Bio-Load SPS System), and to keep my Ca Reactor (because it is effective at maintaining Ca, Alk, and Mg according to my home- testing).... lets say the test that I just submitted samples for comes back with some undesirable findings... How does Triton propose I balance the system with the Biopellet and Calcium Reactor running since i do not want to eliminate them from the system? Presumably i can adjust reactor effluent (and/or CO2 for CaReactor), and avoid Triton's 4 part? Perhaps just the tweaking doses of other trace elements if I am out of whack? Will there be specific instructions for dosing requirements (specific to the test results)?

Also my intent is to test with Triton perhaps monthly for 3 months, and subsequently on a quarterly basis; yet during the interim i will maintain my home testing regimen (as faulty as it may be). so how does this approach avoid the "numbers chase" that Triton declares is Not the objective.

Finally, it would be tremendously helpful if Triton released a clearly defined case for the purpose of each element/compound tested, its benefit to the reef/coral, species known consumption levels, and signs to look for if levels are on target or off target.

Thanks for clarifying. I look forward to my test results and hope i can figure out how to remedy any problems discovered.
-Greg

Hi Greg,

I think the first thing to note when evaluating the Triton "Method" is that it's not a dogmatic, "You HAVE to do it this way or else..." thing. The techniques that are recommended have been developed by Ehsan and others in Europe and The UK for around 7 years, based on what works for the majority of people using Triton. Unlike many "methods" that have been espoused over the years, Triton encourages experimentation and "technique hacks" for intrepid reefers. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to employ the "Method." Sure, there are things that you can do which may be counterproductive or somewhat detrimental to what you're trying to accomplish, so when you see things like "biopellet reactors add complexity..." it's more of an assertion that you don't have to go crazy employing every device or product out there- even those manufactured by Triton. In fact, you'll often see specific recommendations for other manufacturer's products in Triton discussions. Triton is as much a philosophy of reef keeping as it is a set of techniques. It's not about getting lost in "numbers chases" or buying every product out there.

As a point of clarification, the Da Sta Co2 calcium reactor media is intended for use in much larger systems (like several hundred gallons), where using the full "Base Elementz" dosing regularly would be very expensive. The thought is that this incredibly pure reactor media would form the basis of your calcium/alkalinity replenishment, along with the trace elements contained in the media. However, testing would still dictate what specific additional trace elements a given system would need, if any. In other words, it's another, more economical way to employ Triton technique and purity of ingredients in a more economical format for very large systems. I'm sure we'll have much more information about this in the coming months, as we will employ a reactor on one of our roughly 1,200 gallon plus raceways in our facility here at Unique Corals.

As far as your calcium reactor and biopellet running with Triton...well. you COULD, but the thinking is that some of the media employed in both biopellet reactors and calcium reactors may indeed contain trace impurities that could throw off the desired matrix. As you surmise, you COULD employ both reactors and tweak the trace elements as testing dictates (a la the "big tank" thing as outlined above- you could use the aforementioned Da StaCO2 media, I suppose, as it is incredibly pure, and batch tested by Triton). There is no hard and fast absolute rule that says "you're OUT" if you do that! :wink: The point is that, in the opinion of Ehsan and others who have been down that road, you could be making what is really intended to be an elegant, relatively simple system once you get the dosing up and running. Triton is as much about simplicity as it is about stability. It's stability within a range-not trying to hit exact numbers. That's the whole point. Will employing the Ca reactor and Biopellet reactor while simultaneously running other parts of the Triton system keep your parameters in a stable range? That's something that you'll have to see! And, if you simply want to use whatever technique works for you and use Triton testing to see where you're at- there is absolutely nothing wrong with that! And to answer your other question- yes- you'll receive results that indicate the specific tweaks that you might choose to make on your system to fall in line with Triton's matrix- regardless of what technique you employ...Data is data.

IMHO, what's been missed in many of the discussions about accuracy of testing in acid matrix and all of that academic stuff is that this is about employing techniques and practices that can help you create amazing aquariums! It's a hobby and it's supposed to be fun. As we've said repeatedly, Triton is not the only way, or the best way to do this. There are tons of ways to get there. The point is, Triton has developed and refined techniques that may have found effective, simple, and in the long run, economically viable. If you want to create "hybrid" systems, you're welcome to experiment. The fact of the matter is Triton users are recommending what works for THEM. If your system works for you, and you have employed Triton into the mix, that's awesome! Again, it's all about having fun with hobby and creating awesome tanks!

As far as the purpose or benefits of each trace element tested for- I agree, it would be cool to have something like that. The fact of the matter is, science isn't 100% certain what every single element does for corals. In some instances, we simply know that specific trace elements are present in seawater in specific concentrations. Until science provides more specific answers, for some trace elements, just knowing their concentrations in the matrix of seawater is all we have to go on at the present time...Again, there is where experimentation at a hobby level may yield at least some anecdotal evidence about some things...And that is another amazing aspect of Triton- we have access to data that we simply never had before...perhaps the "trickle down" from raw science to practical reef keeping application starts with..us.

Kinda cool, if you ask me.

Hope this sort of answers your question! Looking forward to your sharing and experimenting!

Regards,

Scottt F.

 

[gdemos]

Thanks for the detailed response Scott. With a valid thesis toward knowledge and simplification and an openness towards alternative approaches in obtaining a sound system, it is surprising to hear that that there are nay Sayers to tritons methods. I look forward to sharing my test results and the insight that should come from this.
Keep up the great work
-Greg.