The WWC Method to Reef Keeping! - The BRS/WWC System Ep5 | BRStv

[Ahogue21]

Ryan then maybe this is one of the things that should offer an option on live rock maybe how you guys would recomend setting up a stable tank or what to add to help promote stability and a good cycle in the first few months

 

[F22DRVR]

I promise, this will not be "my" build thread, however, a quick introduction.

I'm new to the hobby. I've spent the last 4 months "in school", by reading everything I can on REEF2REEF, watching everything I can on YouTube, and, visiting all of the well know sites. I took the deep dive a few weeks ago and began acquiring all the necessary gear from BRS. I must give a shout out to the entire BRS organization for what you bring to the hobby! Pictured is my Red Sea Reefer 525XL, which I just completed filling with RODI water 5 minutes ago using my new 4 stage unit.

Anyway, I'm going to follow the WWC/BRS Method of Reef Keeping to the letter as the series goes along. Despite noting the difficulty for a new tank to be mixed reef, I'll take on that challenge. I will, and I promise to, cycle my tank for 4 months before any coral go in. Forgive me now in advance if I ask too many questions as this thread and series goes along.

To stay close to the WWC chemistry, I'll use the Red Sea Coral Pro salt which starts with higher levels, then go from there. I'm going bare bottom. I'm using white textured PVC board as a tank bottom, similar to the black used by BRS in the ULM Trials.

Thank you in advance to WWC, BRS, and all the REEF2REEF members who contribute your knowledge from "proven, verifiable results", which allows a beginner like me, the best possible chance for success!! HERE WE GO!!

 

[don_chuwish]

PAR meter rentals - YES PLEASE!!
Otherwise, looking forward to the rest of the series!

 

[Big E]

Good video........it's outlining a Berlin system & SPS fundamentals that haven't changed for decades.

It's hard to argue with 20 years of success.............maybe more people will stop trying for shortcuts and wasting money on magic potions.

 

[ReefWithCare]

So we have gone full circle and going from dry rock this and that to essentially a berlin method. Finally addressing live rock. Live rock is so important. This dry rock start advocating has been diving me crazy because I see dinos so rampant.

Maybe I won’t be called crazy so much [emoji28].

 

[NS Mike D]

Good video........it's outlining a Berlin system & SPS fundamentals that haven't changed for decades.

It's hard to argue with 20 years of success.............maybe more people will stop trying for shortcuts and wasting money on magic potions.

I like the rethink on a more expansive view on nutrition and the value of chasing ULN was profound. I head scratch how so many aquarists scrub their tanks down to pristine and then dose everything right back in. I can't argue with their success, but I am glad to see someone with the credibility of WWC using a more rational approach.

I also like that the series will take into consideration mosts aquarists have mixed tanks since that is the natural progression in this hobby (starting with softies, then LPS then SPS) and recognizing they are the hardest tanks to maintain.

Lastly, kudos for discerning that cycling is just the first step in tank maturing and how patience beyond just cycling will give corals their best chance of survival. This occurs to me every time I see a new aquarist loosing corals with decent parameters and good flow and lighting - as this too was my expensive experience. I keep a mixed tank whose parameters are similar to when I first started, and I attribute todays success versus those early days of failures to a complex balance favorable to corals that comes from a more diverse ecosystem.

I'm looking forward to following this series

 

[Mono]

One thing I was surprised by, unless I missed it, was the absence of the use of chaeto in a refugium in all three tanks. I thought that had become kind of a standard like a protein skimmer. Interested to see if this issue comes up later in the series and if chaeto is incorporated as part of the hybrid.

And thank you BRS for prodicing these videos.

 

[powers2001]

@Ryanbrs I liked how you said that when you talk about nutrients you differentiate "nitrate & phosphate" as being "nitrate & phosphate" nutrients, and "proteins & fats" as being "protein & fats" nutrients. But I must ask this question about inclusion of nutrients: "Aren't there nitrates and phosphates bound within protein and fat molecules, being actual parts of the molecules? And when a coral takes in proteins and fats into its tissues as food, it is metabolizing or breaking down those nutrients into simpler units thereby uptaking nitrate and phosphate nutrients as well?

So when WWC is feeding fish heavy on the hour, uneaten fish food and fish waste is adding proteins and fats to the water column so this thereby eliminates the need to supplement basic nutrients like nitrates and phosphates?

 

[Navymedic]

nice!

 

[Navymedic]

One thing I was surprised by, unless I missed it, was the absence of the use of chaeto in a refugium in all three tanks. I thought that had become kind of a standard like a protein skimmer. Interested to see if this issue comes up later in the series and if chaeto is incorporated as part of the hybrid.

And thank you BRS for prodicing these videos.

WWC doesn't use Chaeto in their sumps. They do sell it though..

 

[Greaps]

Looking forward to this series. The team at WWC seems to like mechanical filtration, skimmers, and live rock.

Has me thinking, mechanical filtration, skimmer, and live rock.

 

[jcl123]

I am really stoked about this new series, but also a little frustrated and confused at the same time. My head is kinda spinning, and I am also a little sad that you may be changing the BRS160 over to this method. Because I would have liked to see what the long-term performance of Triton looked like in years 2, 3, etc.

This is not meant as criticism, I am just making some observations here.

I was following closely with the ULM and Triton and was totally on board with it. But this WWC idea is a bit of a departure from that in both obvious and some subtle ways. But I get it, you have to keep producing interesting content.

It is good that you come right out in the video and say that some of the things they do are really impractical in a home environment, unless you are retired I guess.

- Feeding every hour - those fish eat better than I do, I half expected Gordon Ramsay to show up in the video. That quality and frequency is clearly at a pro or public aquarium level. I would really like to see a "next best thing" procedure that maybe combines an automatic feeder (and e.g. needing dry foods) plus manual feeding once or twice a day with frozen foods. Something someone with kids and a full time job would have a chance at pulling off. Likely you guys at BRS are already one step ahead of me on this and will be getting to that. Unless someone has really perfected feeding liquid/frozen foods from a doser located in a college refrigerator. I think another factor in feeding so much protein is that those fish are basically in a whirlpool here... ;-) It's the fish equivalent of a treadmill.

- Lighting - I think you danced around it as much as you could, but you need a light meter (rent or buy), especially if you are going LED. I am debating if it is a good idea to have one running continuous like the Neptune, or a manual one. I could see some benefit in being able to detect an issue with lighting before you see it's effects on the inhabitants. But there might also be benefit in the higher-end units. The Seneye might be a good compromise since it can do par/per/ and so forth, and could be used both on an instantaneous or continuous basis. My tank is a 135G (72x18x24) and I am using a pair of Kessil AP700's. It's arguably more light than I need (but I can just turn them down) but I am thinking I will enclose my tank with a canopy and reflectors so that I direct all the light into the tank rather than into the room, this should offer more diffusion / less shadowing (although I like the shimmer). And I can also add the lenses. I'm trying not to add T5's if I can help it, even if I have to add more smaller LED's around the AP700's.

- Filtration - there really is nothing special here, it really could be called an old-school method but with military-grade scheduling. That is fine with me. They are also doing water changes of course, and a calcium reactor, which is what allows them to use carbon and such that would otherwise deplete some elements. My take away is that it is really looking to me that a calcium reactor is going to be cheaper, easier, and more reliable / ULM than dosing, and going a step further, even getting a DaStaco. The other thing moving me in this direction is the cost and availability issues with Triton, even with the cost of a DaStaco and of course you could still use "other methods". Lastly, I think this method screams for an automatic water changing system, I am surprised WWC isn't already using one. Not only would it offer even higher stability (which is almost their #1 concern), but I think the cost benefit analysis might compare favorably to paid staff doing water changes.... especially if they maybe had some kind of large centralized system.

I would say the most important thing I learned from this video is your bit on coral skill levels. Mixed reef actually being the most difficult, even more so than SPS only. I doubt many people think about that when they start getting into reef tanks, makes allot of sense. People like variety, but sticking with one thing and getting it right first is a really good idea. You should cut that out of the video and make a mini-series just on that topic (with more detail into specific coral types in each category), and then make it a sticky on the top of every forum. I for one think learning about all the different coral types and their needs is the biggest challenge of all here.

So, I am going to try and cherry pick the best ideas from Triton, WWC, and a few others and see what I can do with it. Leaning toward the most ULM elements of each.

-JCL

P.S. - what if you had a refugium with a sand bed (as in a large one) and used that with a bare bottom tank to get the best of both worlds? Then you can effortlessly keep the sand clean and get the benefits it clearly offers, while maintaining the hurricane in the tank. I am thinking of taking ABS and gluing sand to it myself. Although I think I might have some pretty frustrated goby's that way.

 

[Ryanbrs]

I am really stoked about this new series, but also a little frustrated and confused at the same time. My head is kinda spinning, and I am also a little sad that you may be changing the BRS160 over to this method. Because I would have liked to see what the long-term performance of Triton looked like in years 2, 3, etc.

This is not meant as criticism, I am just making some observations here.

I was following closely with the ULM and Triton and was totally on board with it. But this WWC idea is a bit of a departure from that in both obvious and some subtle ways. But I get it, you have to keep producing interesting content.

It is good that you come right out in the video and say that some of the things they do are really impractical in a home environment, unless you are retired I guess.

- Feeding every hour - those fish eat better than I do, I half expected Gordon Ramsay to show up in the video. That quality and frequency is clearly at a pro or public aquarium level. I would really like to see a "next best thing" procedure that maybe combines an automatic feeder (and e.g. needing dry foods) plus manual feeding once or twice a day with frozen foods. Something someone with kids and a full time job would have a chance at pulling off. Likely you guys at BRS are already one step ahead of me on this and will be getting to that. Unless someone has really perfected feeding liquid/frozen foods from a doser located in a college refrigerator. I think another factor in feeding so much protein is that those fish are basically in a whirlpool here... ;-) It's the fish equivalent of a treadmill.

- Lighting - I think you danced around it as much as you could, but you need a light meter (rent or buy), especially if you are going LED. I am debating if it is a good idea to have one running continuous like the Neptune, or a manual one. I could see some benefit in being able to detect an issue with lighting before you see it's effects on the inhabitants. But there might also be benefit in the higher-end units. The Seneye might be a good compromise since it can do par/per/ and so forth, and could be used both on an instantaneous or continuous basis. My tank is a 135G (72x18x24) and I am using a pair of Kessil AP700's. It's arguably more light than I need (but I can just turn them down) but I am thinking I will enclose my tank with a canopy and reflectors so that I direct all the light into the tank rather than into the room, this should offer more diffusion / less shadowing (although I like the shimmer). And I can also add the lenses. I'm trying not to add T5's if I can help it, even if I have to add more smaller LED's around the AP700's.

- Filtration - there really is nothing special here, it really could be called an old-school method but with military-grade scheduling. That is fine with me. They are also doing water changes of course, and a calcium reactor, which is what allows them to use carbon and such that would otherwise deplete some elements. My take away is that it is really looking to me that a calcium reactor is going to be cheaper, easier, and more reliable / ULM than dosing, and going a step further, even getting a DaStaco. The other thing moving me in this direction is the cost and availability issues with Triton, even with the cost of a DaStaco and of course you could still use "other methods". Lastly, I think this method screams for an automatic water changing system, I am surprised WWC isn't already using one. Not only would it offer even higher stability (which is almost their #1 concern), but I think the cost benefit analysis might compare favorably to paid staff doing water changes.... especially if they maybe had some kind of large centralized system.

I would say the most important thing I learned from this video is your bit on coral skill levels. Mixed reef actually being the most difficult, even more so than SPS only. I doubt many people think about that when they start getting into reef tanks, makes allot of sense. People like variety, but sticking with one thing and getting it right first is a really good idea. You should cut that out of the video and make a mini-series just on that topic (with more detail into specific coral types in each category), and then make it a sticky on the top of every forum. I for one think learning about all the different coral types and their needs is the biggest challenge of all here.

So, I am going to try and cherry pick the best ideas from Triton, WWC, and a few others and see what I can do with it. Leaning toward the most ULM elements of each.

-JCL

P.S. - what if you had a refugium with a sand bed (as in a large one) and used that with a bare bottom tank to get the best of both worlds? Then you can effortlessly keep the sand clean and get the benefits it clearly offers, while maintaining the hurricane in the tank. I am thinking of taking ABS and gluing sand to it myself. Although I think I might have some pretty frustrated goby's that way.

This is all accurate. I think you will be happy how all this comes together in the end. I think what we are going to find a system/method that isn't dependent on any one line of retail products, meets today's tech and knowledge standards and replicable in a home environment

 

[jcl123]

This is all accurate. I think you will be happy how all this comes together in the end. I think what we are going to find a system/method that isn't dependent on any one line of retail products, meets today's tech and knowledge standards and replicable in a home environment

Fair enough, I trust you ;-)

To their credit, Triton does offer the "other methods".... and anyone can just use their ICP testing for whatever they want. You would think the supply issues would be fairly solvable.

There are several methods out there that can obviously work. The first one I encountered / explored was the DSR method. Quite complex I would say, but that did not deter me because I do have a background in Chemistry. The thing that impresses me about it is that the method appears capable of growing coral so fast, it is almost a problem. You could almost say it was more of a farming / mass production technique in a way. SPS growing like bamboo....

You have these things on one hand, and on the other hand there are so many people who can barely manage to keep things alive and struggle through months of quarantine and bad results. So I think the target is that possible sweet spot between ULM and obsession... if there is such a thing.

-JCL

 

[Ryanbrs]

@Ryanbrs I liked how you said that when you talk about nutrients you differentiate "nitrate & phosphate" as being "nitrate & phosphate" nutrients, and "proteins & fats" as being "protein & fats" nutrients. But I must ask this question about inclusion of nutrients: "Aren't there nitrates and phosphates bound within protein and fat molecules, being actual parts of the molecules? And when a coral takes in proteins and fats into its tissues as food, it is metabolizing or breaking down those nutrients into simpler units thereby uptaking nitrate and phosphate nutrients as well?

So when WWC is feeding fish heavy on the hour, uneaten fish food and fish waste is adding proteins and fats to the water column so this thereby eliminates the need to supplement basic nutrients like nitrates and phosphates?

I think the message here is “nutrients” in our hobby has largely only referred to as nitrate and phosphate. That’s likely because many industries/hobbies reefer to nitrate and phosphate in the water as nutrients. However, most of those other industries are predominantly concerned with plant growth. In the past, most of the nitrate and phosphate conversation in reefing was in relation to limiting plant/algae growth so that all made sense.

However, the hobby has become very good at limiting plant/algae growth and the conversation has shifted away from algae to making sure corals get their proper nutrition. Corals are animals and have different nutritional demands than a plant. So many reefers feel like it is time for the conversation to evolve. The approach to feeding and protein which also contains sources of nitrogen and phosphorus is a step in that direction.

 

[beaslbob]

now thousands and thousands of people will be sitting by their phone on 1 nov waiting for the you won call.

 

[beaslbob]

and excellent video also.

 

[F22DRVR]

Update 1:

I began the 4 month cycle one week ago yesterday. I'm doing my best to follow exactly, all of the information I've learned from the videos to date. (Remember, I'm a newbie, so this video series if perfect timing for me.)

I have a RS Reefer 525 XL Dlx (no lights on), bare bottom (glass covered in a white textured plastic .118 sheet), 104 lbs of dry rock in the display (from Reef Cleaners) and 1 8x8x4 Marine Pure block in the sump. Approximate 131 gallons of water with Red Sea Coral Pro salt.

2 8oz bottles of Dr. Tim's
Using the Dr Tim's Ammonia (on the first day, I dosed the appropriate drops to bring the ammonia to 2 ppm)

As for patience, I'm "ok" so far. I had no decline in the 2 ppm in ammonia until finally last night. After 6 days, its only just now starting to come down. (a little) I'm at around 1.3 - 1.5 ppm. I also have Nitrite now. About 1 ppm. Following the directions, I won't dose any more ammonia until I'm down to zero.

At this pace, I figure I'm about 4 weeks away, at the earliest, to introducing 1 fish. The lights will stay off for three months as prescribed in the videos. I'll also note that the tank is in total darkness most of the day, and, I'm keeping the skimmer off as I need any waste I can get. (haha) I'll turn that on shortly before introducing the first fish. One last note, I ordered a Marine Pure 8x8x1 block yesterday from BRS, which I'll add to the sump. I believe it will add some more real-estate for the bacteria, and, it will be useful for a QT tank in the future.

I can't wait for the next video! Cheers!

 

[BuvRahl]

Questions for you guys. My tank (after 10 years between tanks) is a 120-gallon dual return tank, with two AP 700's arm-mounted about 8 inches off of the water, and about six months old. It also has about 100 lbs of live rock and 1 inch of sandbed along the bottom.
1. Have you found a way to measure par inexpensively as discussed, if not, I am willing to buy a par meter, as going up and down on intensity, without really knowing what my corals are being hit with is important to me.
2. Should I get rid of my sandbed? If so, how quickly should I remove the sand, i.e. a little each week, or all at once, etc. I have a 30-35 gallon triton sump with refugium (with Cheato and pods dosed). I should also mention that I live in Denver, and my apartment didn't have good gas exchange (exporting co2 out of the apartment) which took a while to figure out. I am now running a pH of 8.1-8.2, with keeping a window slit to allow for gas exchange, which allows the water to off gas. I have also heard that being at altitude doesn't allow for pH to run as high as sea-level. I'd be curious to know what you have heard about higher altitude reef tanks.
3. For flow I have two maxspect 250's plugged into one conroller. Any preferences for how to set up flow that would be best for a mixed tank? Yes, I started a mixed tank, and didn't even realize it would be harder than an sps dominant tank.

Those are probably my most pressing question, especially since I have about 1k in frags coming from WWC this week!

Thanks!

Lee

 

[EddieJ]

And many places are getting busted by the feds now for illegal collection practices. TBS is the place to go to for live rock. [emoji106]

I second the “TBS is the place to go for live rock”. Absolutely love it ! The rock is packed full of life and TBS is top notch in communication and customer service. Two thumbs up !