This industry needs an independent certification body

[kboogie]

BRS made a huge leap in my opinion of their reviews when they said in a video about things reefers should start and stop doing, to not buy the expensive ozone generator and instead by a cheap one of Amazon and replace it every two to three years. I’m not saying their reviewed are completely independent but they are not blatant product pushes either. There is good info in their reviews.

I think you are confusing BRS with Ryan's current venture. I don't think BRS has ever or would ever tell customers not to purchase products they sell and instead purchase other products provided by other suppliers.

Maybe. So the BRS branded video Ryan did with the guy from WWC was not a BRS video? Did he take the money and run?

 

[underwaterwonders]

How else would LFS be able to support themselves? I kid but also partly true, there simply isn’t enough money for someone to conduct those tests with no bias/side goal. At the same time it challenges all of us because we must do our own research / learning

It is actually snake oil products that present opportunity for a LFS to become a trusted resource. As a store, we could choose to sell products that don’t work just to earn our 20% markup. But at what cost? The consumer is not an idiot and quickly learns who to trust and who to not. Advising customers on what products work, and in what circumstances is what drives more people to our store.

 

[DCR]

Maybe. So the BRS branded video Ryan did with the guy from WWC was not a BRS video? Did he take the money and run?

If you want to call it that. He is no longer with BRS.

 

[dvgyfresh]

It is actually snake oil products that present opportunity for a LFS to become a trusted resource. As a store, we could choose to sell products that don’t work just to earn our 20% markup. But at what cost? The consumer is not an idiot and quickly learns who to trust and who to not. Advising customers on what products work, and in what circumstances is what drives more people to our store.

Totally agreed! I appreciate stores like that and always go! I prefer to purchase in store

 

[Cow]

BRS made a huge leap in my opinion of their reviews when they said in a video about things reefers should start and stop doing, to not buy the expensive ozone generator and instead by a cheap one of Amazon and replace it every two to three years. I’m not saying their reviewed are completely independent but they are not blatant product pushes either. There is good info in their reviews.

Do you mind sharing an updated link, that one is broken! I seem to recall watching a video like this maybe 5 years ago.

If you want to call it that. He is no longer with BRS.

From what I heard, he had to leave due to his business partner not wanting to continue. I was out of the hobby for a bit and this news kind of bummed me out, however I was excited to find Ryan's working on a new project called Serious Reefs! https://www.instagram.com/seriousreefs/

 

[EliMelly]

Ever heard of a little company called bulk reef supply? They pretty much review anything you could want from the industry.

Yeah, I get it, they’re a retailer and the items they’re demonstrating are for sale on their website, but I think in terms of retailers, they do a good job of keeping the bias out and allowing the customer to make the decision about which item is the correct one for them when given the pertinent information.

Can’t tell you how many brstv episodes are out there that in the video itself, they explain that a certain product probably wouldn’t be a good idea for my needs.

Comparing to other retailers, this is about as honest as anyone could ask for, and they present legitimate numbers in a lot of cases.

That being said, there absolutely are “certification” or “review” companies that have 100% been paid to misrepresent a certain product as beneficial when in fact it could be harmful. The dental industry comes to mind with this.

Perhaps you’re not familiar with the fact that BRS is owned by Aperture which owns Neptune, AI, Ecotech among others. You can’t trust their reviews for anything.

 

[Reefer Matt]

Also, There is nothing stopping anyone from doing their own product reviews. We all buy stuff, just take the time to write a review about it. We don’t have to wait for a “hero” to come out of the woodwork when we hold the power ourselves.

 

[areefer01]

Also, There is nothing stopping anyone from doing their own product reviews. We all buy stuff, just take the time to write a review about it. We don’t have to wait for a “hero” to come out of the woodwork when we hold the power ourselves.

True. But this has its own current to navigate as it relates to the FTC disclosure for social media influencers and if the guidance is followed.

 

[Reefer Matt]

True. But this has its own current to navigate as it relates to the FTC disclosure for social media influencers and if the guidance is followed.

That’s a good point, but sorta a separate thing to me. But yes, if someone gets a free product and does a review on it, it is required by law to disclose that. But as far as honest reviews, anyone can do those when they buy something. I just got into doing reviews myself, like alot of them. But most of them are in written form for a major outlet. They automatically put a disclaimer note on each one. But I think the public holds alot of power on influencing purchases if we want to. I know my situation is a little unique as well, lol.

 

[kboogie]

Do you mind sharing an updated link, that one is broken! I seem to recall watching a video like this maybe 5 years ago.

From what I heard, he had to leave due to his business partner not wanting to continue. I was out of the hobby for a bit and this news kind of bummed me out, however I was excited to find Ryan's working on a new project called Serious Reefs! https://www.instagram.com/seriousreefs/

I found the interview. I linked to the part of the interview where he makes the statement.

 

[RocketEngineer]

How do you know something works in this hobby? If it survives the test of time. Some fads come and go. Technology changes. But those that work continue to work and folks share that it works. Not every method applies to every tank but hardware designs that are still around survived because they work.

 

[JayM]

I wouldn't entirely trust such an agency even if it existed. To understand why, you don't need to look any further than the plethora of pharmaceuticals, food additives and other consumer products that were safe and/or effective only to be banned/recalled later because they weren't.

 

[lbacha]

Based on what you mentioned as the catalyst for this (carbon from Petco crashed your tank) the issue isn’t a product review from the sense of “what does carbon do in your tank” that is common knowledge (or at least you can find lots of articles telling you what carbon does and how to use it). If you feel petco’s carbon was impure and introduced something to the tank that crashed your tank then we are getting into a situation that is very hard to measure even with certification. Unexpected impurities come from the manufacturing process and from supply issues in a product like carbon. Is this organization going to review the suppliers and manufacturing process for each product to ensure quality issues don’t arise? This would be very difficult. If you want this org to just verify that a product is safe for a reef tank then a product like Carbon would be certifies as everyone knows if used correctly it is safe for a reef tank. Even if we want the organization to test for impurities it is easy for company to send samples they have already tested and are good. To really be effective the org would need to continuously test random samples to look for impurities or issues in manufacturing.

 

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

All it takes is a few curious hobbyists with the means to buy/sample/test, and maybe hobbyist affecting change will continue to gain momentum. We’ve all seen it happen, I’m seeing it happen in the bottled bacteria realm, and that makes me happy. This isn’t about me, because anyone could and can do what I do, but because of sampling/testing I’ve performed, I’ve seen two companies chase issues they didn’t know they had (one confirmed, and the other is scared), and another’s board agreed to testing of their products after an employee I chatted with shared that I’d be testing (after I declined a free bottle).

Some sampling/testing takes some work, but that’s cool. I’m a grandpa, and I like to old dude learning opportunities.

When hobbyists say, “Someone should…,” that someone is you. Excuses are easy. Just do something and share, but be ready. The faithful are everywhere.

 

[TankYouVeryMuch]

Vitamins.
Men's health.
Weight loss.
Muscle / body building.

The hobby needs education and common sense more than it needs regulation and/or standards. Nuclear option it would be interesting to require hobbyist owning a license to keep corals and some fish.

???

 

[TankYouVeryMuch]

I personally had a crash from Petco carbon, but this wasn’t about me as much as all the posts I read on here about how different products are of dubious benefit, misrepresented, or just outright snake oil.

Organizations similar to this idea exist for various fields. For example, nutritional supplements are largely unregulated in North America, but many manufacturers willingly submit their products for certification:

https://www.usp.org/verification-services/dietary-supplements-verification-program
https://www.nsf.org/consumer-resources/articles/supplement-vitamin-certification
https://isura.ca
Obviously manufacturers won’t be required to do it, but let’s face it, if you have two competing products available claiming to do the same thing, chances are you’ll choose the one that’s certified. As long as it’s set up fairly, it behooves manufacturers to do it unless they have something to hide.

Please explain to me how you know Petco carbon killed your tank? You can keep the anecdotal evidence to yourself. Proof if you don't mind.
I have used it for years and continue to use it on thriving systems with zero ill effects.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Organizations similar to this idea exist for various fields. For example, nutritional supplements are largely unregulated in North America, but many manufacturers willingly submit their products for certification:

I hope that you realize that many of those "industry certifications" are one form scam or another, either for financial benefit of the certification body, or structured to prevent competition or create a "pay to play" market.

 

[BeanAnimal]

It is actually snake oil products that present opportunity for a LFS to become a trusted resource. As a store, we could choose to sell products that don’t work just to earn our 20% markup. But at what cost? The consumer is not an idiot and quickly learns who to trust and who to not. Advising customers on what products work, and in what circumstances is what drives more people to our store.

In theory you have a point.

But customers do trust their chosen resellers, many of whom peddle garbage. Not only do customers often not know better, but the reseller doesn't either.

Yes there are good stored in any vertical, but be it hot tubs, pet supplies, tile, or bicycles, there are is more BS peddled than their is quality and knowledge. It is how things are sold.

 

[TankYouVeryMuch]

Based on what you mentioned as the catalyst for this (carbon from Petco crashed your tank) the issue isn’t a product review from the sense of “what does carbon do in your tank” that is common knowledge (or at least you can find lots of articles telling you what carbon does and how to use it). If you feel petco’s carbon was impure and introduced something to the tank that crashed your tank then we are getting into a situation that is very hard to measure even with certification. Unexpected impurities come from the manufacturing process and from supply issues in a product like carbon. Is this organization going to review the suppliers and manufacturing process for each product to ensure quality issues don’t arise? This would be very difficult. If you want this org to just verify that a product is safe for a reef tank then a product like Carbon would be certifies as everyone knows if used correctly it is safe for a reef tank. Even if we want the organization to test for impurities it is easy for company to send samples they have already tested and are good. To really be effective the org would need to continuously test random samples to look for impurities or issues in manufacturing.

That wasn’t the catalyst, actually. It was a cumulative based on reading about products like Vibrant, Prime (and other “ammonia detoxifiers”), and similar products. Just search this forum for “snake oil” and you’ll get a lot of hits.

My carbon experience was very much an anecdotal and atypical experience, and I have acknowledged multiple times that there’s no way for me to conclusively prove that’s definitely what happened. My conclusion was based on many factors, the primary ones being that issues began the moment the pump was turned on after the carbon was added, the lack of any other identifiable cause, and most importantly that it completely aligned with the reported experiences of other people, one of whom sent a sample off for lab testing and verified contaminants. The only thing that solved my problems was replacing all of the sand and rocks which had been fine prior to using the carbon. No more issues.

 

[TankYouVeryMuch]

Organizations similar to this idea exist for various fields. For example, nutritional supplements are largely unregulated in North America, but many manufacturers willingly submit their products for certification:

I hope that you realize that many of those "industry certifications" are one form scam or another, either for financial benefit of the certification body, or structured to prevent competition or create a "pay to play" market.

So…don’t do that? It’s not like malevolence inevitably happens, people just keep choosing to ignore it, excuse it, or even justify it. I admit to being a bit flabbergasted by the amount of victim blaming I’m seeing, where some seem to feel like people deserve whatever happens to them if someone takes advantage of them.