Trident vs Alkatronic vs KH Director vs kh guardian

[Kyl]

Do not see it happening but I agree it would be nice.
I also think controllers are becoming less useful as equipment manufacturers spend more time adding more function to the controllers that comes with the piece of equipment. The equipment controllers add way more function than just the basic functions of controllers. These manufacturers are adding cloud support also.
Controllers do add the convenience of all the data in one spot though and not have 3 + apps/..

I think Neptune started to cross the line when they started making equipment to compete with the same manufacturers they need to support their controller.
It is different when you a filling a gap where some equipment is not available like with the flow meters or feeders. There was no manufacturers making them for the Apex.

That discussion is best for another topic since it will unfortunately derail this one quite quickly.

As for the noise, I should further explain that as someone that has tanks in the bedroom, I’m not sure if I would be awoken at 12 midnight or 6am from the Trident. It’s less a nasty noise than the dos, kind of unique versus the metallic brrrrrrrrrr tone. It almost reminds me of a kid with one of those pipe whistle things that can adjust the pitch with the slider. It wasn’t loud, but if you’re sleeping without any sound (radio,etc) or background noise, might be an issue.

 

[leepink23]

That discussion is best for another topic since it will unfortunately derail this one quite quickly.

As for the noise, I should further explain that as someone that has tanks in the bedroom, I’m not sure if I would be awoken at 12 midnight or 6am from the Trident. It’s less a nasty noise than the dos, kind of unique versus the metallic brrrrrrrrrr tone. It almost reminds me of a kid with one of those pipe whistle things that can adjust the pitch with the slider. It wasn’t loud, but if you’re sleeping without any sound (radio,etc) or background noise, might be an issue.

Thanks!! Is the 12 midnight the alk only test?

 

[ReeferBud]

The part that keeps tripping me up personally is people talking about the number of tests per day, calibration, and regent cost. If testing is that important to you then the talk about calibration should be moot since you want accurate and/or consistent numbers. Regent cost, well, is self explanatory. You would have to buy those if you are manually testing. Lastly, the number of tests per day. There are reasons why for each vendor. Don't fight the system rather understand and ask why it is such.

How is ongoing operational cost not a valid consideration variable in making a decision about which unit to buy?

And it’s not about fighting the system or understanding why a certain number of tests per day are necessary. That’s fine and for each company to define as per of their product offering. One factor that’s important to me when I purchase a unit is to understand what I’m getting into and what the needs are going to be from a maintenance and operational cost standpoint, of which reagent seems to be the main defining variable.

If cost isn’t important to you, excellent. But there are others that may feel differently and try to understand why different points are being raised.

 

[Kyl]

Only one retail unit is not an apples to applies cost comparison due to the nature of additional element tests, however, it is valid to compare total ongoing costs since it has inserted itself into the automated dKH testing arena, and this thread is about alkalinity testing. So the fact is one unit has a ~$.75 per day cost built into it's operational requirements at minimum to test alkalinity, while others are lower by default. That fact is why in my initial post I equated the "first year" costs as about equal (aside from the KH Guardian), as other units have a higher up-front cost but lower operational cost to test alkalinty. Post that first year the figures start to even out, and if you're using anything but default testing intervals they reverse.

It's very hard to keep the company aspect out of this topic as they are fairly intertwined in the product and the results. It most certainly is a factor in a decision though, as ecosystem investment is a thing. Thankfully two of the options available have the ability to interface with either of the major software ecosystems in use via PH port spoofing, should that become a decision point.

 

[road_runner]

Only one retail unit is not an apples to applies cost comparison due to the nature of additional element tests, however, it is valid to compare total ongoing costs since it has inserted itself into the automated dKH testing arena, and this thread is about alkalinity testing. So the fact is one unit has a ~$.75 per day cost built into it's operational requirements at minimum to test alkalinity, while others are lower by default. That fact is why in my initial post I equated the "first year" costs as about equal (aside from the KH Guardian), as other units have a higher up-front cost but lower operational cost to test alkalinty. Post that first year the figures start to even out, and if you're using anything but default testing intervals they reverse.

It's very hard to keep the company aspect out of this topic as they are fairly intertwined in the product and the results. It most certainly is a factor in a decision though, as ecosystem investment is a thing. Thankfully two of the options available have the ability to interface with either of the major software ecosystems in use via PH port spoofing, should that become a decision point.

Kh guardian Costs are low I would think...

-~500$ a tester and kh doser
-35$ Reagent last 2 months at 4 hours test interval
- annual maintenance is around 20$ 30$. All simple and can be done by user in home..
- stand alone and can connect to any controller..

 

[Kyl]

Yes, it's lower.

 

[Kyl]

Thanks!! Is the 12 midnight the alk only test?

Midnight: Alk / Ca / Mg
6:00 : Alk
Noon: Alk / Ca / Mg
18:00: Alk

Cannot be changed.

 

[road_runner]

Midnight: Alk / Ca / Mg
6:00 : Alk
Noon: Alk / Ca / Mg
18:00: Alk

Cannot be changed.

Sorry for the dumb question. Which equipment is this?
Not having controll over the test time seem not fair and bad for me..

 

[mitch91175]

So I have been tweaking a few things in my system by adding a kalk stirrer instead of kalk to my ATO an here is what I am measuring right now:

With what I am doing to my system I'll be just fine with it dosing once a day, but will making a few tweaks to my kalk schedule to see if I can eliminate that daily dose I have been seeing. Running a CaRx and kalk stirrer.

You notice the last measurement 9.25dKH. Did a 40 gallon water change. I just left it where is was since it is within my range. If it drops, I know the Alkatronic has my back on picking it back up.

 

[ReeferBud]

Kh guardian Costs are low I would think...

-~500$ a tester and kh doser
-35$ Reagent last 2 months at 4 hours test interval
- annual maintenance is around 20$ 30$
- stand alone and can connect to any controller..

This sounds pretty attractive (for my decision criteria )

I’ll have to research some more as I believe there are some other threads that document the experience with this specific unit.

What about Alkatronic? A 4 L jug of concentrated reagent that can be made into a 20 L solution of reagent costs $110. At 8ml/test and a minimum 2 tests per day that would last for 41 months.

25000 ml / 8 ml/test = 2500 tests
2500 tests / 2 tests/day = 1250 days = 3.4 years
$100 / 3.4 years = 32 $/year

(Anyone feel free to correct me if any errors in assumptions or calcs)

That comes out to an annual reagent cost of $32 for the Alkatronic vs $270 for the Trident.

I guess I was in the wait-for-Trident camp but now that I’m considering these other options more seriously, I’m surprised they’re not more popular/common among reefers interested in Alk monitoring/control.

 

[road_runner]

This sounds pretty attractive (for my decision criteria )

I’ll have to research some more as I believe there are some other threads that document the experience with this specific unit.

What about Alkatronic? A 4 L jug of concentrated reagent that can be made into a 20 L solution of reagent costs $110. At 8ml/test and a minimum 2 tests per day that would last for 41 months.

25000 ml / 8 ml/test = 2500 tests
2500 tests / 2 tests/day = 1250 days = 3.4 years
$100 / 3.4 years = 32 $/year

(Anyone feel free to correct me if any errors in assumptions or calcs)

That comes out to an annual reagent cost of $32 for the Alkatronic vs $270 for the Trident.

I guess I was in the wait-for-Trident camp but now that I’m considering these other options more seriously, I’m surprised they’re not more popular/common among reefers interested in Alk monitoring/control.

Khg is known more in Europe and Asia but it got popular in USA over the last 1,2 years.
I think early announcements and promises are part of the strategy some vendors use to keep customers waiting instead of looking to what's around, it's a buissness at the end of the day

 

[leepink23]

Interesting that we are saying the extra decimal digit is worthy of debate.

Online dosing tools seem to have issues with that extra digit or do not support it at all, so regardless people would be rounding up or down.

The KH Director is .1 and the Trident is .o5. Until a reference fluid comes out like users have with the GHL KH Director we will not actually know the true variation of the Trident .

I think we need to have an article on what an acceptable swing is for alkalinity Because I believe .5 is realistic, do I think my coral will care that it is .5 or .55 I do not think so .

Users should be choosing the product that meets there needs, regardless of the brand and not be tied to any one brand due to the controller they may be running on his/her tank.

There are some stark differences between the GHL KH Director and Neptune Trident, and it hard to compare an apple to an orange as one does Alkalinity only while one does Alkalinity, Mag and Cal. Just because the Trident is doing the other two test does not automatically make it 100% better then the other product. For some it will be an added benefit and for others a hindrance as they may not want to test all three. Some would argue we should, because dosing pumps may fail or Calcium reactor may run into issues etc. and the Trident can detect those issues, but we all know Alkalinity being stable is key. It all depends on what your trying to achieve and the price to do it. For me I test all three weekly as part of my normal tank maintenance even though I monitor and adjust automatically alkalinity, CA and Mag. I still have the good old test kits and log them each and every weekend.

Sales volume is also not a indication also that a device is more successful. Just because Online Stores are not selling more GHL KH Directors then Tridents or Alkatronic does not mean anything. Both of the competitor manufactures came out 18+ months before the Trident, some sell directly, and throwing that type of jab is just asking for a debate. Both GHL, and Alkatronic have over 18 months worth of tweaking, data , sales, and real world customer use behind them. Only after 12-18 months of real world users using the Trident will we have any indication what the the final costs will be. along with stability and reliability of the product with the data and user feedback to support it.

But, we do have some real world data that we can already compare and that the cost of testing.

I have two GHL KH Directors, both running now over 18 months. I have yet to replace the probes, (Calibrate them every 6 months), one tank is being tested 12 times a day the other is 6 times. My only Consumption(AKA Cost) on both of the units is 10 bottles of 1000 ML solution at the cost of approx $300 (Bought them all on sale).

I went through 7 bottles on my one tank or 7000 ML. With daily testing on one tank 24 times a day for 3 months = 2160 Tests and 15 months at 12 test per day = 5,460 tests so a total in 18 months of 7,620 test or .027 a test or 3 cents (Round up ).

We can roughly calculate the Trident cost using the chart below that was posted in the forums, and if I am wrong using the below please let me know

Trident reagent consumption:
4/2/2 - 60 Days - Default Testing Schedule
6/3/3 - 45 Days
8/4/4 - 30 Days
12/6/6 - 20 Days
24/12/12 - 10 Days

So I would be going through every 10 days for the first three months of testing a total of 9 Kits or $396 dollars then approx 22 kits for the remaining period of time or $988 dollars. This is for a total of $1,384 .1816 per test or 18 cents per test.

Tank 2 which is my newer tank is at 6 test per day, 6570 test over the course of 18 months. I went through 3 Bottles (Really more like 2.70 but we will say 3) at a cost of $90.00 or .013 per test rounding this up to 2 cents per test.

Doing it with the Trident at 12/6/6 I would need approx 12 regent kits at the cost of $546 or .083 or 8 cents per test.

The KH Director on the one tank cost me approx $210 for the last 18 months. to run. The Trident would have cost me $1384. If the reagent consumption above are correct from the post on the Trident, I could replace the KH Director for $849 during the 18 months and still be ahead. Worst case scenario for maintenance, I have to replace all 4 dosing heads, and a PH probe. Those cost would be $75 for the PH Probe, $20 for the reference solution, $60 Dollars per Dosing Head or $240 for all 4 heads, $31.00 for new dosing caps which is a total of $366 in parts, plus the $210 on the solution = $576 worse case which is $800 less then the Trident.

Some other things I believe that can already be compared some even pointed out in this thread and others:
Trident minimal testing per day is 4 while the KH Director you can set to 1 per day
The input water sample tube length and water sample is dynamic on the KH Director
KH director does not require a controller to operate the Trident does
KH director has a reference solution so one could check the unit if they wish
I believe the Trident R2D2 noise will be more then the KH Director (Soon to see )
GHL .1 compare to a Trident .05 (Trident reads an extra decimal digit down)
Maintenance on the KH is done by the user, unlike the Trident you ship it in.
With the KH director your dosing container is what you want it to be, the bottle or a Dosing container itself. You are not limited to liek you are on the Trident Unit, it what it comes with and fits inside the unit. Both monitor the solution amounts and both alert and notify when they run low. alerted upon if it runs low.
Trident does dynamic adjustment based on day and night alkalinity consumption, the GHL adaptive settings are throughout the day and night and do not differentiate between night and day.
Trident come with a calibration solution with each reagent package sold.
Both log the results on graphs of there respective devices, alert respectively will stop adaptive dosing if they fall out of tolerance.

I plan to do a KH director and Trident comparison, I was going to wait for the ION so it could be apples to apples but it going to have to start as apples and oranges then grow into apples vrs apples

I have a question about the director, if my times are set for 6am, 2pm, 10pm based off 3x day testing, what happens if a test is off? Does it retest but keep my schedule or does the schedule change?

 

[Silver14SS]

I guess I was in the wait-for-Trident camp but now that I’m considering these other options more seriously, I’m surprised they’re not more popular/common among reefers interested in Alk monitoring/control.

I had the same mindset, but decided to get an Alkatronic back in January. I've been very pleased with it. The ease of returning the waste to the tank, the inexpensive tests, and the reliability have been great. I'd like it to be quieter, I'll probably upgrade the bushings eventually.

 

[road_runner]

I had the same mindset, but decided to get an Alkatronic back in January. I've been very pleased with it. The ease of returning the waste to the tank, the inexpensive tests, and the reliability have been great. I'd like it to be quieter, I'll probably upgrade the bushings eventually.

Agreed, not worrying about salinity and having the option to return the water sample back to the system are great..
I have the same advantage in KHG.

 

[mitch91175]

This sounds pretty attractive (for my decision criteria )

I’ll have to research some more as I believe there are some other threads that document the experience with this specific unit.

What about Alkatronic? A 4 L jug of concentrated reagent that can be made into a 20 L solution of reagent costs $110. At 8ml/test and a minimum 2 tests per day that would last for 41 months.

25000 ml / 8 ml/test = 2500 tests
2500 tests / 2 tests/day = 1250 days = 3.4 years
$100 / 3.4 years = 32 $/year

(Anyone feel free to correct me if any errors in assumptions or calcs)

That comes out to an annual reagent cost of $32 for the Alkatronic vs $270 for the Trident.

I guess I was in the wait-for-Trident camp but now that I’m considering these other options more seriously, I’m surprised they’re not more popular/common among reefers interested in Alk monitoring/control.

Unfortunately they aren't more popular because everyone is/was waiting on what the Neptune Trident and some because of poor marketing (well actually a little bit of both).

I love my equipment just as much as the next person and find the Alkatronic to be a fine device that can be a little rough around the edges (everyone's experience may vary depending on if you can read a manual and following instructions or just try to wing it ).

 

[Silver14SS]

Agreed, not worrying about salinity and having the option to return the water sample back to the system are great..
I have the same advantage in KHG.

Good point with the salinity, especially for those of us with smaller tanks. When I looked at the KH Director, the frequency of how often I'd like to test and the waste volume meant I would have had to compensate for that.

 

[mitch91175]

I have a question about the director, if my times are set for 6am, 2pm, 10pm based off 3x day testing, what happens if a test is off? Does it retest but keep my schedule or does the schedule change?

I think I understand why you want to test at a certain time each day, but I think you may want to consider that alkalinity isn't 100% consumed at the same rate each day at the exact same time. I wouldn't be worried about testing at a specific time as much as knowing that I can test for instance every 5/6/7/8/9 hours. The unit at that point will handle any retest that are needed and your interval times tested will slightly shift due to retest and logic about last test, etc. And usually on this stuff about testing intervals, it is all software based so that can be changed with firmware (at least besides the Trident with the minimum already set at 4/2/2).

I'd say get a device of your choice and really live with the good and the bad. The primary purpose of the current devices on the market all are dKH management. That is the one that will wipe out a tank really fast if not managed.

 

[leepink23]

I had the same mindset, but decided to get an Alkatronic back in January. I've been very pleased with it. The ease of returning the waste to the tank, the inexpensive tests, and the reliability have been great. I'd like it to be quieter, I'll probably upgrade the bushings eventually.

Do you know if the bushing are upgraded on the ones released now?

 

[leepink23]

I think I understand why you want to test at a certain time each day, but I think you may want to consider that alkalinity isn't 100% consumed at the same rate each day at the exact same time. I wouldn't be worried about testing at a specific time as much as knowing that I can test for instance every 5/6/7/8/9 hours. The unit at that point will handle any retest that are needed and your interval times tested will slightly shift due to retest and logic about last test, etc. And usually on this stuff about testing intervals, it is all software based so that can be changed with firmware (at least besides the Trident with the minimum already set at 4/2/2).

I'd say get a device of your choice and really live with the good and the bad. The primary purpose of the current devices on the market all are dKH management. That is the one that will wipe out a tank really fast if not managed.

I plan on this week writing down each machine with pros/cons and make a decision. Hopefully this helps others with future decisions.

 

[Silver14SS]

Do you know if the bushing are upgraded on the ones released now?

I'm not sure, but I'm guessing so. Their customer service is responsive through email or Facebook if you'd like to confirm.

http://www.focustronic.net/products/ultra-silence-kit-for-pump-a-and-c-as-replacement.html