Tropic Marin All for Reef not increasing CA and MG?

[Righteous]

Yeah, that's not what I'm seeing. Can't be coralline then

Just to be clear. Nothing is going to drop calcium alone without dropping alkalinity at the same time.

Here’s a deeper dive by Randy:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.php

 

[andarre]

Just to be clear. Nothing is going to drop calcium alone without dropping alkalinity at the same time.

Here’s a deeper dive by Randy:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.php

Exactly, that's not what I'm seeing when I test. Alk is rising while Calcium stays the same more or less. Which IMO means that nothing is using up the alk, or using it up at a fast enough rate to show any impacts. Hence why I don't think I have coralline algae. Also, I only have 3 very small, albeit healthy stonies that make no impact on calcium due to their size and relative newness to my system...

I honestly just want to get calcium and mag up to acceptable levels and maintain them there steadily. 420 to 440 cal and 1300ish mag is what I'm aiming for and 2 part along with a mag supplement seems to be the answer.

Thank you again @Righteous

Edit: Your OCD comment could not be more spot on... I'm definitely obsessive over every little thing that happens with my water and inhabitants. I almost died when I saw my first acan shrivel up the first night I got it not knowing that they do that at night or to expel water and waste... lol

 

[Righteous]

Oka.. yeah that sounds like just an issue with using AFR. With some tanks, they don’t have enough bacteria that metabolize the formate. I dosed a bunch in my 100g once and noticed alk rising a good week+ later. I’m guessing that’s what you’re really seeing.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Okay... so first AFR will raise everything all on its own. The reason its "not good" for raising levels is mostly down to testing difficulties and not being able to raise alkalinity/calcium/magnesium individually. Chemically it's certainly able to raise levels. One thing to keep in mind is that in reef tanks those elements drop all together in generally fixed ratios, which is why AFR or other balanced additives are able to maintain them easily.



It certainly makes sense to get your levels inline with your salt mix. So yes, if your calcium and magnesium are at salt mix levels, but alkalinity is low, boosting it with bicarbonate or what not makes sense. Then once you reach those levels, you then keep things balanced (AFR can do that as can other "two part" additives).

Eventually things can sometimes get out of wack for real reasons, and then you'll want to boost things seperatly. But just be aware that lots of imbalances are testing issues. Only when you see a consistent trend (or when you're trying to match salt mix parameters) do you probably need to do some adjusting.

Yeah, this makes. Thanks. FYI, I am just going off Lou, or whatever his name is, at tropic marin literally saying all for reef is not particularly good at raising alkalinity. He said that not me, and i assume he is the one that designed it. He said it will raise calcium levels easily, but not alkalinity. He suggested using something else to do that.



(At about 1 hour and 3 minutes you can listen...)

I had an ICP done a month ago and that showed everything was good, except alkalinity was lower 7's. Notably, my nitrates were 0.01, if that plays into this at all. When alk dropped further into the 6's for a week or so on the Hanna tester, that's when i increased All for Reef dosing. It's because those extras additions of all for reef didn't raise it on the hanna, i used the seachem reef builder to (testing wise) raise it.

My thought process is that regardless of what my alkalinity levels are or are not--i feel more comfortable with a testable range between 8 and 9, both because my salt is instant ocean (10), and because if alkinity is a little higher in reality because of all for reef--i am still in an acceptable range. I just don't feel comfortable or like being in the 6's on the hanna.... Why have it be there? is there any reason to?

Anyway, really appreciate the input. I think as long as whatever i do, i do slowly, everything will be fine because i am acceptable ranges for alk, calcium, magnesium, etc.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Next question, anyone using All for Reef and Kalk? I was thinking about starting dosing kalk just to help raise PH, which seems is all the new rage (i don't want to miss out on all the hype!!!)

Example of Circle jer* on PH being the "most important" testing parameter:



That could eliminate need for (occasional) seachem products (reaf buffer, reef complete), and i could use kalk consistently to raise PH, keep things stable, add all for reef to help with trace and the rest of its goodness???

or am i crazy and over complicating things and potentially creating problems in a tank without any.... lol?

 

[andarre]

Next question, anyone using All for Reef and Kalk? I was thinking about starting dosing kalk just to help raise PH, which seems is all the new rage (i don't want to miss out on all the hype!!!)

I used to a long time ago but had too many issues with precipitate and the stirrer not doing its job properly. Kalk is more headache than it's worth imo.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

I used to a long time ago but had too many issues with precipitate and the stirrer not doing its job properly. Kalk is more headache than it's worth imo.

I think you have a very valid and strong point.

 

[andarre]

@Mywifeisgunnakillme Here's some things you can try if you'd like to raise your PH naturally:

1. Open doors and windows in your house to let fresh air in and CO2 out. Excess co2 in the air is directly introduced to your tank via the protein skimmer and raises the carbonic acid levels which directly impacts PH.

2. If 1 is not possible, get a co2 scrubber. You can make a super cheapo one buy getting one of the canisters used for DI resin or carbon blocks and putting a DI resin sleeve in there full of co2 scrubbing media. That works for sure and I've used one on all my tanks over the years. Don't waste money on a prebuilt co2 scrubber, those are not worth it.

If you can't do 1 or 2 then use a refugium with macro algae if you have the space. It's a little slower as it takes a bit for the macros to settle and adjust but when it takes off, you'll see the difference.

 

[Righteous]

2. If 1 is not possible, get a co2 scrubber. You can make a super cheapo one buy getting one of the canisters used for DI resin

Another cheapo option that works. Get a gallon
water jug, dremel or cut slits in the bottom and fill with co2 scrubbing media, and then run a line from skimmer through the cap. Ran that way for a couple years and works just as well as anything.

 

[Righteous]

That could eliminate need for (occasional) seachem products (reaf buffer, reef complete), and i could use kalk consistently to raise PH

I would not recommend using buffers to raise pH. Any buffer you use is also going to raise Alkalinity. Also seachem reef buffer is nothing other than a combination of baking soda and sodium carbonate (baked baking soda). You’d be better off using Kalk as a primary calcium and alkalinity source alone with magnesium supplement.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

I would not recommend using buffers to raise pH. Any buffer you use is also going to raise Alkalinity. Also seachem reef buffer is nothing other than a combination of baking soda and sodium carbonate (baked baking soda). You’d be better off using Kalk as a primary calcium and alkalinity source alone with magnesium supplement.

I meant reef builder, it's just a alkanity supplement. That said, i've used seachem reef buffer in the past (maybe 15-20 years ago) and i saw no issues. PH was higher and the mixed tank was very successful. I don't use the reef buffer now, but might again. I just added it to instant ocean salt when mixing new salt for water changes and saw no ill effects. What concerns me about kalk is the mess and mixing and precipitate. I put chalk in some darker beers i brew control PH and it's a nightmare on pumps and equipment. I can definitely see it being a PITA for a reef aquarium.... but i still might try.

 

[Righteous]

I meant reef builder, it's just a alkanity supplement. That said, i've used seachem reef buffer in the past (maybe 15-20 years ago) and i saw no issues. PH was higher and the mixed tank was very successful. I don't use the reef buffer now, but might again. I just added it to instant ocean salt when mixing new salt for water changes and saw no ill effects. What concerns me about kalk is the mess and mixing and precipitate. I put chalk in some darker beers i brew control PH and it's a nightmare on pumps and equipment. I can definitely see it being a PITA for a reef aquarium.... but i still might try.

I’m not suggesting there’s anything wrong with it. Reef builder and Reef buffer are nothing other than sodium bicarbonate and sodium carbonate, ie baking soda and baked baking soda. Both are perfect alkalinity supplements, just like is used in Randy’s DIY 2 part. Adding it to your salt mix prior to water change is a great way to bring the dKH of the mix up higher.

I’m just saying that using either on a regular basis, specifically to alter pH, isn’t a good idea since you’ll keep raising your Alk relative to everything, with both of them. (Ie using AFR or Bionic daily, and then on top using reef builder to bump pH)

The primary contributor to lower pH in your reef tank is CO2. As long as your alkalinity is where you want it and stable, then I’d focus on CO2 issues to bring up pH. You can do that by maintaining good air exchange both in house and via a skimmer, and actively lowering CO2 via a refugium and CO2 scrubber.

I believe Randy also has a new DIY 2 part that specifically keeps pH higher, maybe he can chime in. But unlike trying to boost pH with baked baking soda additions, you’ll keep everything balanced and alkalinity stable.

 

[CarltonCay]

Those are just normal fluctuations in your testing.

No one tests for Nitrite so don't even include it - that's likely making up numbers.

Try to diligently test at the same time. Swings in our tanks are normal depending on the time of day.

Again - you didn't test Nitrite.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Okay, so corals look good and if numbers are in the ball park with All for Reef and relatively stable--don't worry about it?

The reason i used the reef buffer was because the tropic marin guy in a video said that the corals internally use all for reef and testing is hard on it. If levels do drop, all for reef is not good at raising them. He said to use another product to raise them. then use all for reef to maintain.

Does that make sense?

The reason i wanted a bit higher alk (testable) is that i use Instant Ocean and it tests out at like 10. If i ever needed a large water change, i wanted to be closer to that to avoid stressing corals with a alk spike...

Is that a worthwhile goal?

Yes, that's pretty much what I was saying, although i would not pick a tank alk to match a salt mix for a hypothetical future large water change.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Exactly, that's not what I'm seeing when I test. Alk is rising while Calcium stays the same more or less. Which IMO means that nothing is using up the alk, or using it up at a fast enough rate to show any impacts. Hence why I don't think I have coralline algae. Also, I only have 3 very small, albeit healthy stonies that make no impact on calcium due to their size and relative newness to my system...

I honestly just want to get calcium and mag up to acceptable levels and maintain them there steadily. 420 to 440 cal and 1300ish mag is what I'm aiming for and 2 part along with a mag supplement seems to be the answer.

Thank you again @Righteous

Edit: Your OCD comment could not be more spot on... I'm definitely obsessive over every little thing that happens with my water and inhabitants. I almost died when I saw my first acan shrivel up the first night I got it not knowing that they do that at night or to expel water and waste... lol

The "more or less" is what throws many people into misunderstandings.

An alk rise or drop of 1.4 dKH is easy to detect by kit, but the balanced calcium rise or drop of 9-10 ppm calcium is not redily detectable and looks like "more or less" to many people, but it is exactly right.

NEVER use any sort of all in one product to boost calcium substantially (even a two part with both parts) because alk will go through the roof.

As to magnesium in this fashion, forget it. It responds as calcium does, but ten times more slowly.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

i would not pick a tank alk to match a salt mix for a hypothetical future large water change.

Thank you. Your answers always leave me with another question, lol.

What's the magic alkalinity number then?

Anything in the range of 7 of 10 has been seemingly fine for my mixed tank. I don't notice a difference in anything regardless of the value. Just trying to find something stable and that makes sense for some reason or another....

I just figured put it at my salt's level... I mean some people spend $100 on salt for value of 7. I just figure spend $30 on IO and have a value closer to 10 (IO's).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you. Your answers always leave me with another question, lol.

What's the magic alkalinity number then?

Anything in the range of 7 of 10 has been seemingly fine for my mixed tank. I don't notice a difference in anything regardless of the value. Just trying to find something stable and that makes sense for some reason or another....

I just figured put it at my salt's level... I mean some people spend $100 on salt for value of 7. I just figure spend $30 on IO and have a value closer to 10 (IO's).

There is no magic number. Different people pick different alk targets for different reasons. The section below has some discussion of that from one of my articles:

Unlike the calcium concentration, it is widely believed that certain organisms calcify more quickly at alkalinity levels higher than those in normal seawater. This result has also been demonstrated in the scientific literature, which has shown that adding bicarbonate to seawater increases the rate of calcification in some corals. Uptake of bicarbonate can consequently become rate limiting in many corals. This may be partly due to the fact that the external bicarbonate concentration is not large to begin with (relative to, for example, the calcium concentration, which is effectively about 5 times higher).

For these reasons, alkalinity maintenance is a critical aspect of coral reef aquarium husbandry. In the absence of supplementation, alkalinity will rapidly drop as corals use up much of what is present in seawater. Water changes are not usually sufficient to maintain alkalinity unless there is very little calcification taking place. Most reef aquarists try to maintain alkalinity at levels at or slightly above those of normal seawater, although exactly what levels different aquarists target depends a bit on the goals of their aquaria.

Interestingly, because some corals may calcify faster at higher alkalinity levels, and because the abiotic (nonbiological) precipitation of calcium carbonate on heaters and pumps also rises as alkalinity rises, the demand for alkalinity (and calcium) rises as the alkalinity rises. So an aquarist generally must dose more calcium and alkalinity EVERY DAY to maintain a higher alkalinity (say, 11 dKH) than to maintain 7 dKH. It is not just a one-time boost that is needed to make up that difference. In fact, calcification gets so slow as the alkalinity drops below 6 dKH that reef aquaria rarely get much below that point, even with no dosing: natural calcification has nearly stopped at that level.

In general, I suggest that aquarists maintain alkalinity between about 7-11 dKH (2.5 and 4 meq/L; 125-200 ppm CaCO3 equivalents). Many aquarists growing SPS corals and using low nutrient or Ultra Low Nutrient Systems (ULNS) have found that certain corals suffer from "burnt tips" if the alkalinity is too high or changes too much. One hypothesis of why is the skeletons grow faster than the tissue can keep up, resulting in thin and easily damaged tissue at the growing tips. Thus, in a low nutrient situation, aquaria may be better served by alkalinity in the 7-8 dKH range.

As mentioned above, alkalinity levels above those in natural seawater increase the abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate on warm objects such as heaters and pump impellers, or sometimes even in sand beds. This precipitation not only wastes calcium and alkalinity that aquarists are carefully adding, but it also increases equipment maintenance requirements and can damage a sand bed, hardening it into a chunk of limestone. When elevated alkalinity is driving this precipitation, it can also depress the calcium level. An excessively high alkalinity level can therefore create undesirable consequences.

 

[Skep18]

It’s why I wouldn’t advise using it for sensitive stuff like Acropora. However it seems okay for your tank livestock. (I use it in a tank with softies and a few stony coral, and I don’t worry about)

[...]

If you’re more OCD like me or want to keep things super stable for Acro or something, then you might want to change away from AFR.

Digging up an old thread as I am using the "search" function so forgive me, but is the above generally accepted as true? Is All for Reef generally not advised for maintaining elements in an acropora-dominant tank?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Digging up an old thread as I am using the "search" function so forgive me, but is the above generally accepted as true? Is All for Reef generally not advised for maintaining elements in an acropora-dominant tank?

There’s no limitation on the tank you can use AFR in, except cost. I also do not recommend automated alk control with it.

 

[Skep18]

There’s no limitation on the tank you can use AFR in, except cost. I also do not recommend automated alk control with it.

Any opportunity for expansion on your aversion for using it for ALK control?