Tropic Marin All for Reef not increasing CA and MG?

andarre

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Hey everyone, hope you guys can help. I've been dosing 6mls TM AFR since Sunday and I have seen no increase in CA or Mag at all. As a matter of fact, it's gone down, especially Mag.

Tank specs as follows: Waterbox 40.1 - 24gal display, 16 gal sump. Total water volume is about 30 gallons considering displacement and water level in sump.

Params on Sunday:
Amm - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrates - between 3 and 7
Phos - .04
PH - 7.9
Alk - 8.7
CA - 390
Mag - 1310
SG - 1.026

Params as of today:
Amm, Nitrite, Nitrate, Phos same.
PH - 8.2
Alk - 9.4
CA - 380
Mag - 1250
SG - 1.026

CA test kit is Red Sea, Mag is Aquaforest, Alk and PH is Hanna. All purchased within last 2 months and not even close to expiring.

Livestock - 5 Different Zoas with no more than 10 heads each. 2 Acans with 3 heads each. GSP about the size of a matchbox and a silver dollar sized frag of Sprung's Stunner Chalice. All doing wonderfully by the way.

I know I don't have a lot of livestock but I'm trying to raise my params to be able to start caring for SPS and larger LPS and keep it stable. Really scratching my head with this one... Any help is appreciated!
 

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AFR is designed to maintain parameters, not raise them.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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The magnesium drop is test error. It cannot have dropped that much. Maybe 1-2 ppm in that time.

The calcium result (10 ppm) is also within the uncertainty of most kits.

If you want to boost calcium for a one time correction, use calcium chloride.
 
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andarre

andarre

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The magnesium drop is test error. It cannot have dropped that much. Maybe 1-2 ppm in that time.

The calcium result (10 ppm) is also within the uncertainty of most kits.

If you want to boost calcium for a one time correction, use calcium chloride.
I truly appreciate your reply sir! It's pretty much an honor... lol

I'll test Mag again and see if I didn't fudge it somehow.

Am I correct in assuming that it should increase the levels though? Especially in a tank that has no organisms that would be able to uptake it at a rate that would be fast enough to make it plateau?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I truly appreciate your reply sir! It's pretty much an honor... lol

I'll test Mag again and see if I didn't fudge it somehow.

Am I correct in assuming that it should increase the levels though? Especially in a tank that has no organisms that would be able to uptake it at a rate that would be fast enough to make it plateau?

If you maintain alkalinity with it, then ideally it maintains calcium and magnesium too.

But other factors can impact the relative demand of the two, especially water changes .
 
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andarre

andarre

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If you maintain alkalinity with it, then ideally it maintains calcium and magnesium too.

But other factors can impact the relative demand of the two, especially water changes .
Makes sense. Alk has been going up. Coincidentally I did a WC on Sunday using HW Marinemix Reefer since TM Pro Reef is so hard to come by at the moment, and before dosing, the parameters were where I've described above. Haven't done a WC since though.
 
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andarre

andarre

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The magnesium drop is test error. It cannot have dropped that much. Maybe 1-2 ppm in that time.

The calcium result (10 ppm) is also within the uncertainty of most kits.

If you want to boost calcium for a one time correction, use calcium chloride.

Just tested 3 times to ensure that I got a good baseline and it all averages out to 1280... Also tested with the reference solution that comes with the kit (1310 mag +-1%) and hit 1300 on the head so the kit is still good. I'm lost in the sauce here...
 

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I wouldn’t be too concerned about only two magnesium tests that differed by 50ppm. With magnesium just watch for trends over the long term, and make sure you’re in a range where you want it. Not a lot of stuff is going to burn up magnesium quickly.

in general, when you test, you’re going to notice that alkalinity seems to move more relative to calcium and magnesium. That’s largely because the units differ more than they seem. There’s so much more calcium and magnesium in the water; it takes a lot more to move those numbers up and down. For example if your alkalinity fell naturally from like 8 to 6, calcium would only drop something like 20ppm. BUT, testing often has margins of error larger for calcium and magnesium. So sometimes they’re not really moving much even though they seem to be fluctuating a lot.

On top of that, as nitrates go up, alkalinity can go down, and vice versa. AFR also has a time delay in how long it takes alkalinity to show up, since it needs to be metabolized to free up the alkalinity, which further complicates things.

Hopefully all that isn’t making your head spin too much.

Basically, both your calcium and magnesium tests are kind of in the margin or error. So with those tests you listed I would actually assume it’s staying fairly stable. So keep on going as is and watch for longer term trends.

And as Randy suggested, you should probably dose calcium chloride separately to bring your calcium up in the 420 range. (Assuming your calcium test is accurate, I always check with two tests before larger corrections)
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Just tested 3 times to ensure that I got a good baseline and it all averages out to 1280... Also tested with the reference solution that comes with the kit (1310 mag +-1%) and hit 1300 on the head so the kit is still good. I'm lost in the sauce here...

My suggestion is to only occasionally test magnesium. It cannot ever rise or fall rapidly (except by dosing) so is not ever needed to be tested frequently.

Real magnesium consumption is on the order of 0-2 ppm per day
 
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andarre

andarre

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I wouldn’t be too concerned about only two magnesium tests that differed by 50ppm. With magnesium just watch for trends over the long term, and make sure you’re in a range where you want it. Not a lot of stuff is going to burn up magnesium quickly.

in general, when you test, you’re going to notice that alkalinity seems to move more relative to calcium and magnesium. That’s largely because the units differ more than they seem. There’s so much more calcium and magnesium in the water; it takes a lot more to move those numbers up and down. For example if your alkalinity fell naturally from like 8 to 6, calcium would only drop something like 20ppm. BUT, testing often has margins of error larger for calcium and magnesium. So sometimes they’re not really moving much even though they seem to be fluctuating a lot.

On top of that, as nitrates go up, alkalinity can go down, and vice versa. AFR also has a time delay in how long it takes alkalinity to show up, since it needs to be metabolized to free up the alkalinity, which further complicates things.

Hopefully all that isn’t making your head spin too much.

Basically, both your calcium and magnesium tests are kind of in the margin or error. So with those tests you listed I would actually assume it’s staying fairly stable. So keep on going as is and watch for longer term trends.

And as Randy suggested, you should probably dose calcium chloride separately to bring your calcium up in the 420 range. (Assuming your calcium test is accurate, I always check with two tests before larger corrections)
You're 110% correct about the mag. In doing a little more research this week, I've read that mag tends to not move much unless you do something to change it, i.e. water change with salt that has a higher or lower mag concentration, dosing straight magnesium chloride, etc. so that all makes sense.

One thing though, AFR contains calcium formate which is broken down by bacteria. I don't see the alk swinging wildly and only goes up by .2 a day. It's currently sitting at 9.6, which didn't change from yesterday for some reason even with continued dosing of AFR. I've waited over 24 hours in between tests to ensure that the alk is stabilized.

What I DID notice today is that the magnesium has now increased by 30 points and the calcium is now sitting at 410-420 which is an increase of about 30 to 40 pts taking into account the error that Red Sea tests may have.

Bottom line is it's all trending in the right direction and I may have to dial back the dosing a bit to 3mls instead of 6 which is what my volume of water calls for just so that the increase in alk doesn't continue on it's upward trend as quickly. I don't want to hit 11dKh as that's just much higher than I'd like to be at.

My suggestion is to only occasionally test magnesium. It cannot ever rise or fall rapidly (except by dosing) so is not ever needed to be tested frequently.

Real magnesium consumption is on the order of 0-2 ppm per day
I will heed this suggestion. I was only testing due to the new dosing that I was doing and wanted to see where the trends went.

I appreciate all your help!!!

One more thing @Randy Holmes-Farley , What are your views on HW Marinemix reefer? Have you used it? I feel like the parameters I was attaining with Tropic Marin Pro Reef were better but it's nowhere to be found right now so I had to switch...
 

Mywifeisgunnakillme

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@Randy Holmes-Farley

I use All for Reef to maintain alkalinity. I noticed a drop to 6.8 and couldn't get All for Reef to raise it. Calcium was at 400 which is what it always is (instant ocean) basically. I used Seachem reef buffer and raised alkalinity to 8dkh. now trying to maintain again with All for Reef.

Any issues with maintaining and raising alk with these these products this way?

I normally add about 5ml of seachem reef complete once a week to maintain calcium. I am at 10 ml per day of All for Reef. 20% water change with instant ocean each week.

its a 20 gallon nano, mixed reef with some acros and montis that over 4 or 5 inches and 7 or 8 inches.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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@Randy Holmes-Farley

I use All for Reef to maintain alkalinity. I noticed a drop to 6.8 and couldn't get All for Reef to raise it. Calcium was at 400 which is what it always is (instant ocean) basically. I used Seachem reef buffer and raised alkalinity to 8dkh. now trying to maintain again with All for Reef.

Any issues with maintaining and raising alk with these these products this way?

I normally add about 5ml of seachem reef complete once a week to maintain calcium. I am at 10 ml per day of All for Reef. 20% water change with instant ocean each week.

its a 20 gallon nano, mixed reef with some acros and montis that over 4 or 5 inches and 7 or 8 inches.

All for Reef is a complex product in terms of trying to control alkalinity. The rate at which excess formate is converted to detectable alkalinity might be fast, or too slow to be useful.

If alk is declining, that suggests, but does not prove, that the ALl for Reef at the current dose is not meeting the demand and dosing more may be appropriate.

There is nothing wrong with dosing some sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide to boost alkalinity, but if you do that often it seems to defeat the purpose of an All In One product, and will also eventually require some matching calcium.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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One more thing @Randy Holmes-Farley , What are your views on HW Marinemix reefer? Have you used it? I feel like the parameters I was attaining with Tropic Marin Pro Reef were better but it's nowhere to be found right now so I had to switch...

IMO, all salt mixes can work fine, as long as you know the effects of the calcium and alk levels in it, and then use the mix appropriately.
 

Mywifeisgunnakillme

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All for Reef is a complex product in terms of trying to control alkalinity. The rate at which excess formate is converted to detectable alkalinity might be fast, or too slow to be useful.

If alk is declining, that suggests, but does not prove, that the ALl for Reef at the current dose is not meeting the demand and dosing more may be appropriate.

There is nothing wrong with dosing some sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide to boost alkalinity, but if you do that often it seems to defeat the purpose of an All In One product, and will also eventually require some matching calcium.

Okay, so corals look good and if numbers are in the ball park with All for Reef and relatively stable--don't worry about it?

The reason i used the reef buffer was because the tropic marin guy in a video said that the corals internally use all for reef and testing is hard on it. If levels do drop, all for reef is not good at raising them. He said to use another product to raise them. then use all for reef to maintain.

Does that make sense?

The reason i wanted a bit higher alk (testable) is that i use Instant Ocean and it tests out at like 10. If i ever needed a large water change, i wanted to be closer to that to avoid stressing corals with a alk spike...

Is that a worthwhile goal?
 

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The reason i used the reef buffer was because the tropic marin guy in a video said that the corals internally use all for reef and testing is hard on it. If levels do drop, all for reef is not good at raising them. He said to use another product to raise them. then use all for reef to maintain.

Okay... so first AFR will raise everything all on its own. The reason its "not good" for raising levels is mostly down to testing difficulties and not being able to raise alkalinity/calcium/magnesium individually. Chemically it's certainly able to raise levels. One thing to keep in mind is that in reef tanks those elements drop all together in generally fixed ratios, which is why AFR or other balanced additives are able to maintain them easily.

The reason i wanted a bit higher alk (testable) is that i use Instant Ocean and it tests out at like 10. If i ever needed a large water change, i wanted to be closer to that to avoid stressing corals with a alk spike...

It certainly makes sense to get your levels inline with your salt mix. So yes, if your calcium and magnesium are at salt mix levels, but alkalinity is low, boosting it with bicarbonate or what not makes sense. Then once you reach those levels, you then keep things balanced (AFR can do that as can other "two part" additives).

Eventually things can sometimes get out of wack for real reasons, and then you'll want to boost things seperatly. But just be aware that lots of imbalances are testing issues. Only when you see a consistent trend (or when you're trying to match salt mix parameters) do you probably need to do some adjusting.
 
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andarre

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@Randy Holmes-Farley @Righteous Crazy thought I just had, could I have lower CA in the past few weeks due to green coralline algae? I've got green covering all the rocks and it DOES NOT come off with a turkey baster and I really have to scrub it to get it to come off with hard bristle toothbrush... I apologize this isn't a chemistry related question.

Already went through the diatom/dino/cyano phase which came and went in like 3 or 4 weeks and then this green came up everywhere on my rocks like chicken pox. Not live rock unfortunately...
 

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could I have lower CA in the past few weeks due to green coralline algae?

Well coralline algae just like anything else is going to lower calcium and alkalinity together. Corals, clams, coralline.. all use alkalinity and calcium together to generate calcium carbonate.

So here’s a possible scenario:

You measure the following

8.0 Alk
380 Calcium.

You then dose AFR, and immediately test

8.0 Alk
400 Calcium.

Next day you test again:

9.0 Alk
390 Calcium

At this point what has happened (assuming your tests are perfectly accurate) is that the AFR raised your calcium immediately, however the alkalinity was still locked up with the formate. The next day the formate metabolized unlocking the alkalinity; but both calcium and alkalinity also were used up due to calcifying organisms. (My numbers are probably not completely accurate, Randy’s better with the exact math, but the basic trends are correct)

So with AFR, you just have to test and make sure things are “about right”. Even if you test off calcium, usually that seems to fluctuate more than it does due to test error.

It’s why I wouldn’t advise using it for sensitive stuff like Acropora. However it seems okay for your tank livestock. (I use it in a tank with softies and a few stony coral, and I don’t worry about)

So just get your numbers about where you want them, then dose and keep track of the trend over several weeks. If it continues in one direction increase or decrease. As things start to grow and change you’ll need to change dosing as well.

Ultimately don’t worry unless you’re seeing large excursions.

If you’re more OCD like me or want to keep things super stable for Acro or something, then you might want to change away from AFR.
 
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andarre

andarre

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Well coralline algae just like anything else is going to lower calcium and alkalinity together. Corals, clams, coralline.. all use alkalinity and calcium together to generate calcium carbonate.

So here’s a possible scenario:

You measure the following

8.0 Alk
380 Calcium.

You then dose AFR, and immediately test

8.0 Alk
400 Calcium.

Next day you test again:

9.0 Alk
390 Calcium

At this point what has happened (assuming your tests are perfectly accurate) is that the AFR raised your calcium immediately, however the alkalinity was still locked up with the formate. The next day the formate metabolized unlocking the alkalinity; but both calcium and alkalinity also were used up due to calcifying organisms. (My numbers are probably not completely accurate, Randy’s better with the exact math, but the basic trends are correct)

So with AFR, you just have to test and make sure things are “about right”. Even if you test off calcium, usually that seems to fluctuate more than it does due to test error.

It’s why I wouldn’t advise using it for sensitive stuff like Acropora. However it seems okay for your tank livestock. (I use it in a tank with softies and a few stony coral, and I don’t worry about)

So just get your numbers about where you want them, then dose and keep track of the trend over several weeks. If it continues in one direction increase or decrease. As things start to grow and change you’ll need to change dosing as well.

Ultimately don’t worry unless you’re seeing large excursions.

If you’re more OCD like me or want to keep things super stable for Acro or something, then you might want to change away from AFR.
Yeah, that's not what I'm seeing. Can't be coralline then... I think I'm gonna back away from the AFR and get a true 2 part to increase levels along with dosing mag to keep it up.

Thank you for your help!! ;Happy
 

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