Tropic Marin All for Reef.

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This statement by BRS, presumably provided by TM is simply wrong since it SHOULD NOT EVER be scaled by volume:

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/all-for-reef-tropic-marin.html
"
Specifications (per 500 mL)

• Carbonate Hardness Concentration: 2,800 dKH"

dKH as a unit of measure literally means:

" As a unit 1 dKH is the same as 1 °dH which is equal to approximately 0.1786 mmol/L or 17.86 milligrams (mg) of calcium carbonate per litre of water, i.e. 17.86 ppm."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DKH
What is the alkalinity in the entire ocean? Same as in 1 mL: ~6.5 dKH

@Lou Ekus
@Hans-Werner

 

[ovicez2004]

Can you show in a picture or write what the bottle says exactly? Is it dKH per volume?

Tropic Marine uses some nonstandard (incorrect) ways of describing alkalinity that may have translation issues.
Hans Werner gives the concentrations here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/w...c-marin-all-for-reef-afr.882805/#post-9751382
"The concentrations for All-For-Reef solutions, no matter whether bought as solution or self-prepared from All-For-Reef Powder, are 43000 ppm calcium, Ca, 6000 dKH per liter alkalinity (as alkalinity-precursors), 1900 ppm magnesium, Mg, 780 ppm strontium, Sr and 34 ppm iodine, I."

And BRS gives it here:

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/all-for-reef-powder-mix-tropic-marin.html
We can extract from these that the alkalinity of AFR is 6,000 dKH. We can then use a calculator like this one and the entry for my DIY #1 (alk = 5,300 dKH) and then if you want to be very accurate, correct it by reducing the amount needed by a factor of 6,000/5,300 = 1.13 (13% reduction in dosing amount needed per alk boost).

https://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chem_calc3.html
The problem from TM arises that they sometimes use words like dKH per 500 mL (or other volume), which is an incorrect use of the units. dKH is already per unit volume, and the dKH in AFR (or anything else) is the same whether it is a volume of 1 mL or a million liters.

 

[ovicez2004]

Randy, I want to thank you for your answer. Hans Werner explanation in that post you attached was the one that opened my mind.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yep, that picture of the bottle shows the confusing dKH per volume.

 

[Lou Ekus]

As you all know, I am not a chemist, and I never pretend to be one! So I am not the best company person to answer this quesiton. It looks to me as it the word "concentration" is incorectly be used. I think this refers, in some way, to the total amount of alkalinity contained in the full volume of the liquid in the bottle. The numbers work out pretty closely if you look at it that way. This may. very well have been a translation error. We try to catch them all, but sometimes they "slip through". I appraciate you all pointing this out and I will be speaking with the team in Germany about this. Obviously, it will take some time for us to get the products with corrected labeling inot the US market. But we will correct the error.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

As you all know, I am not a chemist, and I never pretend to be one! So I am not the best company person to answer this quesiton. It looks to me as it the word "concentration" is incorectly be used. I think this refers, in some way, to the total amount of alkalinity contained in the full volume of the liquid in the bottle. The numbers work out pretty closely if you look at it that way. This may. very well have been a translation error. We try to catch them all, but sometimes they "slip through". I appraciate you all pointing this out and I will be speaking with the team in Germany about this. Obviously, it will take some time for us to get the products with corrected labeling inot the US market. But we will correct the error.

Thank you, Lou. :)

 

[Hans-Werner]

Please see my reply here

If it has been confusing folks since AFR came out I am very sorry but it skipped my attention. Are there questions related to the "amount" of alkalinity AFR adds in this forum?

I can't recall getting an e-mail asking how much alkalinity AFR doses based on the claims we make in the instructions.

The reason behind this "false" claim is, that I thought noone would understand, that the one liter bottle has 6000 dKH alkalinity and the half liter bottle also has 6000 dKH alkalinity. Should we have taken as prerequisite that everyone knows dKH is a concentration and not a quantity they can dose?

I know it is not your job, but maybe you can suggest how we can convert this concentration to a quantity that can be dosed given in units almost everybody understands?

I can't add much more to this question here at the moment.

The up-to-date concentration is ca. 6.000 dKH as alkalinity precursors. We have increased it from 5600 after the start of the product.

 

[surf165]

How much are you dosing daily?

In my 85 gallon system I’m dosing 15ML a day.. So like a tablespoon. Keeps my Ali near 9/9.3. If it drops lower I dose a cap of Bionics.

 

[Anxur]

@Lou Ekus this time the tag is correct..

@Hans-Werner

Can you say me the list and percentage of elements of Tropic Marine All for Reef?

I'm an user.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hans-Werner gives that information here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/w...c-marin-all-for-reef-afr.882805/#post-9751382

 

[Nicksreef2022]

How long

Your procedure does not sound like automated dosing, but manual dosing by dosing pump that you control.

Automated dosing doses based on automated alk measurements tied directly to a a dosing pump.

The issue Depends on what you do and how your automation responds, but if it doses to maintain alk, you may way overshoot because the product has no detectable alk when first dosed.

So some systems might say, more more more when in fact, once the formate that was already added is actually converted into detectable alk, it may be much higher than you want.

A two part has immediately detectable alk, so cannot have that problem.

does it take for the formate to convert to detectable alk .i have just started using All for reef and I have been dosing for 4 days and my ALK has been dropping everyday. I’m afraid to add Alk separately as I do not want a huge spike once the formate has converted.

 

[BryanM]

I'm a KHGuarding alk tester, and at the moment using it to dose AFR as well.

But it's an art more than most of this science stuff. I've just upped the dosage by 1ml, and will let this go for a week or so to see the increase in alk.

 

[rishma]

How long

does it take for the formate to convert to detectable alk .i have just started using All for reef and I have been dosing for 4 days and my ALK has been dropping everyday. I’m afraid to add Alk separately as I do not want a huge spike once the formate has converted.

In my tank it takes around 24 hours to see the full alkalinity. I have see others report seeing it in a matter of hours.

I expect you are seeing alkalinity from your doses. If alk is going down it’s likely being consumed or precipitated.