Tropic Marin Amino Organic

[Reefr]

Two questions —

Is there any white paper studies for phosphate?

The study attached to my post establishes amino acid and nitrogen uptake for corals in aquaria. We have great methods to measure phosphate and nitrate, but no clear methods to measure more complex organic compounds.

“DFAA quantification was performed using a spectrofluorometer” …is there a way that the home hobbyist to quantify complex organic nitrogen compounds? I wouldn’t even need to have a break down. Even a total quantity would be great. Could water turbidity be used? Better than nothing?

Just restarted my tank after a Hurricane hit 5 months ago. Very excited to get a hold of your product.

Hi Biologic,
Perhaps the N-DOC test from Triton would help here
Edit: I just found Hans-Werner commented on that a few minutes ago

 

[Reefr]

There are other ways to measure nitrogen compounds that include an oxidation step. One method is the "Kjeldahl digestion". I have tried to test for nitrate after the "normal" phosphate digestion, but not sure whether the results where correct and no systematic tests.

I think the nitrogen analysis of Triton measures it after oxidation in their N-DOC-Test if I interpret this right but I'm not sure.

I think our Tropic Marin Plus-NP addresses P deficiency quite well.

I hope the P-product will be ready in a few months, so maybe it will be available in early autumn or maybe summer. Of course it should be something special that avoids the usual problems with phosphate dosage like adsorption to rocks and substrates. "Einfach kann ja jeder", anyone can simple may be a crude translation ...

Thank you Hans-Werner!
Looking forward to using the P-product in 2022.
Keep up the good work as we count on TM to advance this field

 

[Hans-Werner]

I have experienced too low phosphate levels where my corals do not look happy at all. You mentioned phosphate levels at 0.1 to 0.2 being good for growth and color.

Is it still true that possibly any higher levels if I can assume say above 0.2 results in decrease calcification in corals? (Too much of a anything can be bad)

I just found I have skipped one question. To answer it: I am not sure because finding out requires more elaborated and time-consuming investigation. Growth of corals must not be equal to calcification, if specifically calcification is meant. To determine the calcification rate you need to to measure it with buoyant-weight control of the same frags. Otherwise corals may show more growth with less calcification and the skeleton formed is just less calcified, less dense and more brittle.

Maybe at phosphate concentrations above 0.2 ppm also growth is inhibitied a bit, but not by much up to at least 0.5 ppm. The growth inhibition at phosphate concentrations below 0.04 ppm is much more pronounced.

 

[cosicologne]

hmm interesting. Lets say we keep a acropora tenuis. This coral is living in an outer reef shelf with basically 0,0x po4. Super low nutrients and we put it in a 0,2 Po4 invironment. I bet it will bleech rather quickliy.

I think regarding the nutrient levels we must specify what kind of animal we want to keep. A dog needs other foods and treatments as a cat. Both are mammals and have four legs. I think an outer reef freshly importated australien tenuis will not like 0,2 P04 what so ever. If this specific coral comes from 0,02 Po4 to a aquarium with 0,06 (lets just say) it has higher chances of surviving than coming to a tank with 0,2 po4. At least hear in germany coral breeding is not even close to be able to supply the demand for sps corals so chances are people are buying wild/ aquacultured animals.

I think its very important to teach people the difference between these animals and that a acropora of indonesia coming from very cloudly high nutrient waters is very different from a low to zero nutrient water outer reed acro from lets say australia. Put all together in 0,2 will not do the job i think.

Also with higher po4 are we not supporting algae/ bad bacteria in a way where its difficult to controle them? How do we manage "good" bacteria in an super high nutriernt level?

Cant wait to learn more.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Lets say we keep a acropora tenuis. This coral is living in an outer reef shelf with basically 0,0x po4. Super low nutrients and we put it in a 0,2 Po4 invironment. I bet it will bleech rather quickliy.

I bet it will not. Acropora species are very good in adapting to higher phosphate concentrations and very, very bad in adapting to lower phosphate concentrations. I am sure rather the opposite will be the case. Starving an Acropora coming from a bit higher phosphate concentrations with 0.02 ppm phosphate will kill it with RTN soon.

Besides concentrations of dissolved reactive phosphate there are lots of particulate phosphate in the water surrounding the corals that usually are not recorded by most publication or people talking about phosphate concentrations. This particulate phosphate may be feces of fish, especially also from parrot fish, other kinds of "detritus" and plankton.

In my opinion bleaching isn't a matter of high phosphate concentrations at all, rather it is of low phosphate concentrations and/or nitrate. Most newer scientific publications and my on experience with nutrient experiments in tanks point in this direction.

I also would bet something that there is a reason why reefs in the GBR, in the Gulf of Mexico and around Florida are the reefs that are most effected by bleaching and dying, especially of Acropora spp.: Continents with lots of agriculture and industries releasing nitrate and other nitric oxides into air and water.

I think what we are doing to the oceans with fertilizers produced by artifical nitrogen fixation and other emissions of available nitrogen compounds is similar to what we are doing to the atmosphere with CO2 and other emissions.

 

[reefluvrr]

Continents with lots of agriculture and industries releasing nitrate and other nitric oxides into air and water.

I allowed my Nitrate level to bottom out, and my Phosphate kept rising up from 0.15 to 0.25.

I know you have mentioned you prefer no Nitrates, but I wonder where do the colors of our Acroporas come from then?

Is there be a balance of Nitrogen to Phosphate you like?

(Sorry Hans, I guess I am trying to get information from you before you are even ready to post it.)

 

[Hans-Werner]

Is there be a balance of Nitrogen to Phosphate you like?

Please keep in mind that nitrate and nitrogen is not the same when it comes to nutrient ratio. In my opinion nitrate is just the dump of the nitrogen cycle, where nitrogen collects when reduced nitrogen compounds are in surplus, are oxidized by the nitrification process, can accumulate, and organisms need not to make any use of the nitrate. Only then significant amounts of nitrate can accumulate.

If you are adding nitrate as as a nitrate solution you most likely are not adding a nutrient that is needed in this situation but only an oxidant and a form of oxygen that for example can inhibit the reduction of iron(III) to iron(II) because nitrate is reduced first.

In this situation nitrate concentration as a nitrogen source doesn't matter at all, it is useless.

A nitrogen to phosphate ratio in the standing stock of nutrients also is not of any use because the nutrient dynamics of nitrogen compounds and phosphate are completely different. At low nutrient concentrations corals need ca 0.02 ppm or ca. 0.2 µmol/l of phosphate to achieve any net uptake of phosphate. In molar concentrations corals need around the same concentrations of nitrogen compounds for net uptake, not much difference whether ammonium, nitrate, amino acids or urea. In ppm 0.2 µmol is for example 0.0036 ppm of ammonium or 0.012 ppm of nitrate. These are the minimum concentrations corals need for net uptake. Which ratio could be derived from these concentrations?

I think that these nitrogen concentrations are present in any tank with some fish and crustaceans and some feeding, no addition needed.

If you want to do a regular supply of nutrients, again mainly phosphate is needed. The nutrient ratio corals need is much narrower than the Redfield ratio, in my experience around half the Redfield ratio. Redfield ratio of N to P is 16 : 1, again molar concentrations. Half the Redfield ratio would be 8 : 1. Why that?

Corals incorporate a significant amount of phosphate into their skeletons. In my opinion it plays some essential role in the calcification process, maybe binding calcium. With very low phosphate concentrations calcification is reduced much. This already may lead us to the conclusion that corals with high calcification rate and a high skeleton to tissue ratio need the highest phosphate supply which is in perfect agreement with my personal observations. In contrast to common view SPS do not need very low nutrient concentrations but have the highest phosphate consumption of all corals and need the highest phosphate supply.

I guess this image of nutrient ratios and nutrient dynamics is a little bit more complex than the widespread image.

 

[reefluvrr]

Half the Redfield ratio would be 8 : 1

Okay I believe I got it. We usually only test for Nitrates in our tank, which is most oxidative form of Nitrogen so it is not preferable.

That is why you are fine having unmeasurable Nitrates, because there ought to be enough less reactive forms of Nitrogen (urea, amino acid, ammonium) which help add up to the Redfield ratio of 8:1 for corals. (Provided you have fish, crustacean, fish food)

 

[Hooz]

@Hans-Werner I have been following along with this thread. I am thinking about switching to Amino-Organic for my tank. I currently use Red Sea AB+, but it's not practical to put on a dosing pump because it needs to be refrigerated. Amino-Organic appeals to me because it seems I could get the same amino acid benefits, and do it all with a dosing pump.

My question is this... You recommend a "maximum" dose of 2.5mL/100L. What is a good starting dose? Do you recommend starting at the maximum dose? If starting at the maximum, what do I look for to know when/if to cut back?

 

[cosicologne]

In my experience phosphate is one of the best growth promoters for corals. Some publications even say that a nitrogen deficiency to a certain degree is necessary for the proper working of the coral-zooxanthellae mutualism. My experiences confirm this.

If you want better coral growth and good colors I recommend phosphate between 0.1 and 0.2 ppm, and nitrogen is not so important. For higher phosphate concentrations please take into account dosing Plus-NP instead of NP-Bacto-Balance. The higher nitrogen concentration in Plus-NP has a similar effect as Amino-Organic. Maybe you can "kill two birds with one stone".

We are working on the phosphate theme.

Hi Hans-Werner!

I reduced my carbon dosing because i wanted to raise Po4 slightly to your recommended level. I am currently at 3ml NP-NB, 5ml Aminos and 2ml Zootonic. Is there any negative effect /reason to keep the Po4 in that range with NP-BB? It was designed for a lower range i know. But keeping it at any range should work right? Thanks

 

[Hans-Werner]

My question is this... You recommend a "maximum" dose of 2.5mL/100L. What is a good starting dose? Do you recommend starting at the maximum dose? If starting at the maximum, what do I look for to know when/if to cut back?

A good starting dose is always half the recommended dosage or less, so 1 ml per 100 l. Low and dropping phosphate concentrations are possible problems. Do not get below 0.03 ppm. Cyanobacteria also may be a frequent problem with dosing of amino acids.

It was designed for a lower range i know. But keeping it at any range should work right? Thanks

I am not 100 % sure I did understand your question right. Higher nutrient range with lower dosing is always possible.

 

[Superlightman]

Actually in one of my tank I have 0 nitrate and 0-0,01 phosphate.
I have actually started to dose nitrate and phosphate with positive effects. I consider switch to the tropic marin carbon dosing as I use already all for reef and the salt and I trust Hans Werner.
If I understand it right, I should start with plus np until I reach 0,03 phosphate then switch to np bacto balance or keep plus np? Would this product supply both nitrogen and phosphate?so no need also for dosing nitrate? Would be the nitrate also increasing in the nitrate test or not?
As they are carbon dosing, would it still make a sense to dose reef act if as it is also carbon?

 

[Hans-Werner]

The easiest way is to use Plus-NP at a dosage to keep the desired level after having reached 0.03 ppm phosphate. So you don't need another product.

 

[Superlightman]

Ok I will give it a try

 

[Superlightman]

Does it make sense to dose amino organic + Plus-NP or not ,from what I read it seems to be the same without phosphate?
They are some amino in plus- np?
One of my tank has phosphate levels from 0,04 and nitrate near zero, could amino organic be used instead of nitrate/nitrogen dosing? Would this product be enough for this?
If phosphate levels from 0,1-0,2 are good, why does my kh consumption is less when I go over 0,12 this shown that calcification slows down no?

 

[mcgullen]

So 0.1ml Zootonic for 100 L of water. But my LPS tank is 15 L. What to do?

If I dilute 0.1 ml of Zootonic into 10ml, can I keep this diluted solution in the fridge to be dosed over 10 days?

Also, must GAC be taken out when dosing Zootonic?

 

[Hans-Werner]

I always recommend to dilute our products not with water but with All-For-Reef or Carbo-Calcium. The calcium compound is also used as feed and food preservative. We did a trial with closed bottles in our warm and humid aquarium room and it worked. Two users complained that it did not work in their chosen ratio. Maybe it is depending from the ratio.

Stored in the fridge for a limited time span it should be no problem to dilute Zootonic with All-For-Reef or Carbo-Calcium. After using up one batch of diluted product please clean container thoroughly before filling in a new batch.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Does it make sense to dose amino organic + Plus-NP or not ,from what I read it seems to be the same without phosphate?
They are some amino in plus- np?
One of my tank has phosphate levels from 0,04 and nitrate near zero, could amino organic be used instead of nitrate/nitrogen dosing? Would this product be enough for this?
If phosphate levels from 0,1-0,2 are good, why does my kh consumption is less when I go over 0,12 this shown that calcification slows down no?

Sorry, this post arrived during my vacation and I got aware of it only now. So I hope it is still helpful or at least answers some questions.

Amino Organic and Plus-NP may be dosed together. Take care that the combined dosage does not exceed the recommended maximum dosage.

Plus-NP contains organic nitrogen compounds. In my opinion these organic nitrogen compounds work even better than normal amino acids and have less adverse effects.

0.04 ppm phosphate is not too much in my eyes. You may also use Plus-NP. Amino-Organic contains nitrogen compounds that satisfy the nitrogen needs of corals and other invertebrates and can be used instead of nitrate dosing. Amino-Organic can be used as only solution for nitrogen supply.

Phosphate in the water will inhibit calcium carbonate precipitation for example in pumps, on heater and in the bottom gravel that otherwise may occur in the tank. At higher phosphate concentrations corals tolerate also higher alkalinities. Both effects may increase alkalinity a bit.

If calcification really slows down, there should be a continuous increase in calcium and alkalinity, at least at continuous dosing. If this is not the case a slightly elevated alkalinity only shows that calcification takes place at slightly higher alkalinity. To test it, buoyant weight increase in corals would have to be determined.

 

[Superlightman]

Thanks for your answer,will amino organic show up in my nitrate test or it will not be convert in nitrate?

 

[reefluvrr]

Hi @Hans-Werner .

I would like to pick your brain about my situation with higher PO4 levels relative to 0 Nitrate levels.
As with our previous discussions, we do not care about Nitrate levels and should really be looking at PO4 levels.
Initially, I carbon dosed with Elimini NP to bring PO4 levels down to below 0.1. Many of my LPS and SPS were not happy and eventually slowly experienced tissue contraction on my LPS or tissue sloughing on SPS. I had been dosing Elimini NP for over 1 year at the time and eventually switched over to Bacto Balance. I remained using NP Bacto Balance for 8 months keeping my PO4 levels around .05 to 0.1 levels. However I still saw slow deaths of my LPS through polyp contraction. Sadly during all this time I did not see much growth on my SPS or LPS.

For the past two months now, I have completely stopped dosing any carbon source. I have only been using Tropic Marin All for Reef. Last month my PO4 levels were 0.21 and today it was measured at 0.4. My LPS are much happier with fuller polyp expansion. SPS has polyp extensions. LPS colors are richer. However the SPS colors are brownish in color.

Should I try dosing with Tropic Marin Amino Organic to increase Nitrogen source to try to bring more colors?
I think if I use plus NP it would increase the PO4 level too much since it contains both PO4 and Nitrogen?

Any suggestion is greatly appreciated!

Also, I am curious when you can share your findings on higher levels of PO4 for coral growth.