Tropic Marin ICP

[areefer01]

I have twice and have not heard back yet.

Depending on when you did time of year may be the reason. Especially in Germany. I received notification from ATI that they have several days of closure due to holidays. Likewise with Oceanmo - not in Germany but still in Europe.

Also I do not want to assume, but the block solutions provide an application dose instruction. For example the molybdenum block describes what elements are included and their respected contents. It then gives the application and dosage. I only mention this as I was looking to increase something and it was in one of the blocks. So I looked.

Application & Dosage
2 ml per 100 l/ 26. US. gal. aquarium volume increase the concentration levels of molybdenum by 3 µg/l (ppb), of rubidium by 3 µg/l (ppb), of vanadium by 1.2 µg/l (ppb), of tungsten by 0.015 µg/l (ppb), and of tellurium and hafnium by 0.003 µg/l (ppb) each.

Maximum dosage: 4 ml per 100 l/ 26. US. gal. daily.

 

[docscorals]

Thanks. I do use the dosing instructions on the bottle. I suppose I was hoping for more specific guidance like I have seen on posts about Reef Moonshiners and ATI. Correction dosing and daily dosing recommendations basically.

I’ll wait until after the new year and try a follow up, or maybe I can figure out a way to use the Reef Moonshiners calculator and might just switch depending on what I learn or what the experience and outcomes are like with TropicMarin.

 

[mmorrison55]

That video from brs made it seem like it would give dosing instructions based on the blocks and your icp test…. So hopefully soon

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Randy Holmes Hi! What are your thoughts on this block element system. Do you agree that the system is a good new approach or are you thinking differently from your own wealth of knowledge. Can we pick your brain on the subject.

I’m not a fan. In fact, I’d say I’m disappointed in them.

If you are doing icp, then it seems prudent to add what is needed, not some mixture that may or may not reflect the needs of your tank. Mixing elements that have different sinks and so do not get consumed in a fixed ratio seems especially poor design. Iodine and fluoride, for example.

They have also fallen into the marketing trap that
Moonshiners has, pushing elements with no known biological role. In this case, a bunch of them, such as gallium and hafnium.

 

[rishma]

I’m not a fan. In fact, I’d say I’m disappointed in them.

If you are doing icp, then it seems prudent to add what is needed, not some mixture that may or may not reflect the needs of your tank. Mixing elements that have different sinks and so do not get consumed in a fixed ratio seems especially poor design. Iodine and fluoride, for example.

They have also fallen into the marketing trap that
Moonshiners has, pushing elements with no known biological role. In this case, a bunch of them, such as gallium and hafnium.

Oooof. TM is the company in this market I hold in the highest regard. That’s disappointing.

 

[EnterName]

I would love to hear Hans W. Balling's opinion on that. I know he is on this forum, but I don't want to tag him just so he can "defend" (or trash) a product of the company he is working for. His takes always appeared reasonable and honest, I really appreciate him for that.

 

[winxp_man]

I recently got my tank ICP tested. I could care less about TM’s calculators. I use Randy’s or other online info directly from the product I’m dosing. So much info out there, I don’t see the need to wait on TM for anything. All that is needed are the numbers the tank carries.

 

[Bugger]

• Calcium
• Magnesium
• Strontium
• Barium

2. Carbonate/Alkalinity Components

• KH/Alkalinity components (primarily Carbonates and Bicarbonates)

3. Trace-Colors A & B (Halogens, Potassium & Boron)
These five elements are grouped for their biological functions in coral soft tissue and pigmentation.

• Iodine
• Bromine
• Fluorine
• Potassium
• Boron

4. Trace-Colors C & D (Metals & Bioactive Elements)
This group contains 26 elements in total.

• Iron
• Manganese
• Cobalt
• Copper
• Aluminum
• Zinc
• Chrome
• Nickel
• 18 Bioactive Trace Elements: These include Silver, Gold, Vanadium, and Tungsten, which support blue and purple pigments.

This is from Red Sea. What are the 18 Trace Elements that are needed.

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Are you in agreement with the Red Sea studies.

What is everything you should be dosing that are necessary so I don't waste money

 

[rtparty]

• Calcium
• Magnesium
• Strontium
• Barium

2. Carbonate/Alkalinity Components

• KH/Alkalinity components (primarily Carbonates and Bicarbonates)

3. Trace-Colors A & B (Halogens, Potassium & Boron)
These five elements are grouped for their biological functions in coral soft tissue and pigmentation.

• Iodine
• Bromine
• Fluorine
• Potassium
• Boron

4. Trace-Colors C & D (Metals & Bioactive Elements)
This group contains 26 elements in total.

• Iron
• Manganese
• Cobalt
• Copper
• Aluminum
• Zinc
• Chrome
• Nickel
• 18 Bioactive Trace Elements: These include Silver, Gold, Vanadium, and Tungsten, which support blue and purple pigments.

This is from Red Sea. What are the 18 Trace Elements that are needed.

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Are you in agreement with the Red Sea studies.

What is everything you should be dosing that are necessary so I don't waste money

He has a whole thread on this:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/randys-elements-to-dose.1030557/

 

[rishma]

Mixing trace elements is an inherent compromise because they are not consumed in predictable proportions (unlike alk, Ca, Mg). I think the A- and K+ traces is a fine solution, but if I am going to fine tune beyond that I want them individually with few exceptions.

 

[mmorrison55]

Mixing trace elements is an inherent compromise because they are not consumed in predictable proportions (unlike alk, Ca, Mg). I think the A- and K+ traces is a fine solution, but if I am going to fine tune beyond that I want them individually with few exceptions.

According what tropic Marin is stating…

The Block Analysis System solutions are multi-element solutions in which element groups that are consumed in the same ratio are dosed with just one solution using an indicator element. This simplifies the application and compensates for measurement tolerances.

I would assume and hope that a company as respected as Tropic Marin would have scientists and chemists on their payroll. This is their reputation that is on the line and I don’t think they would risk that if they didn’t have tests to back this up.

Some startup you’ve seen for the 1st time at a frag swap, I’d be very skeptical, but this is tropic Marin we are talking about.

I think I heard them say they were trying to do for trace elements what they did with all for reef. So How many said the same thing about all for reef when it 1st came out? Im seriously asking because I don’t know. I was not in the hobby when all for reef was released so I don’t know how it was received. But I know it’s one of the most recommended products in the hobby today.

 

[rishma]

According what tropic Marin is stating…

The Block Analysis System solutions are multi-element solutions in which element groups that are consumed in the same ratio are dosed with just one solution using an indicator element. This simplifies the application and compensates for measurement tolerances.

I would assume and hope that a company as respected as Tropic Marin would have scientists and chemists on their payroll. This is their reputation that is on the line and I don’t think they would risk that if they didn’t have tests to back this up.

Some startup you’ve seen for the 1st time at a frag swap, I’d be very skeptical, but this is tropic Marin we are talking about.

I think I heard them say they were trying to do for trace elements what they did with all for reef. So How many said the same thing about all for reef when it 1st came out? Im seriously asking because I don’t know. I was not in the hobby when all for reef was released so I don’t know how it was received. But I know it’s one of the most recommended products in the hobby today.

TM has excellent chemists.

All-for-reef made sense to most of us when it was released, understanding the trace elements compromise. It’s a great product.

I’d like to give TM the benefit of the doubt. What they claim is exactly what I would want; however, unlike alk, Ca, and Mg, the ratios in trace consumption are not well established. They do generate their own data so I’m quite sure it’s based on some science but I’m not sure it’s applicable.

I’m just skeptical that the ratios are consistent enough to make it work much better than AFR does today. Don’t misunderstand, I think AFR is the best product of the last decade and I use it. It works so well there are only a few trace I consider dosing separately.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

According what tropic Marin is stating…

The Block Analysis System solutions are multi-element solutions in which element groups that are consumed in the same ratio are dosed with just one solution using an indicator element. This simplifies the application and compensates for measurement tolerances.

That’s just simply incorrect.

Fluoride is used only by calcifying processes, since it is incorporated into calcium carbonate in place of carbonate.

Iodine is strongly incorporated into various types of algae.

To clematis are used in all reef tanks in the same fixed ratio is blatantly wrong.

 

[rishma]

Not that Randy needs any support but I’ll give an example.

I have used AFR for ~5 years. One thing my ICP showed as typically low was iodine.

A couple years ago I purchased Red Sea Trace A because it had iodine and was available or my LFS. It also happens to have Flouride just like the TM block.

I have been dosing the trace A weekly and have maintained my iodine in a good range with it per ICP.

You know what is quite low? Fluoride. That’s because in my tank Fluoride and iodine consumption are not linked.

I suspect the blocks and RedSea are in part designed considering what is chemically convenient.

 

[areefer01]

Not that Randy needs any support but I’ll give an example.

I have used AFR for ~5 years. One thing my ICP showed as typically low was iodine.

A couple years ago I purchased Red Sea Trace A because it had iodine and was available or my LFS. It also happens to have Flouride just like the TM block.

I have been dosing the trace A weekly and have maintained my iodine in a good range with it per ICP.

You know what is quite low? Fluoride. That’s because in my tank Fluoride and iodine consumption are not linked.

I suspect the blocks and RedSea are in part designed considering what is chemically convenient.

I'm also a user of AFR and here is my Iodine chart below. ATI ICP (OES) uses a reference of 63.54 µg/l. Ignoring that for a minute my sample using Oceanic water, Fiji, has a value of 78.71.

I have had some dips but AFR in my use case seems to be managing well. No argument from me either way just interesting how our systems behave differently when using same product(s).

 

[rishma]

I'm also a user of AFR and here is my Iodine chart below. ATI ICP (OES) uses a reference of 63.54 µg/l. Ignoring that for a minute my sample using Oceanic water, Fiji, has a value of 78.71.

I have had some dips but AFR in my use case seems to be managing well. No argument from me either way just interesting how our systems behave differently when using same product(s).

That is interesting. I supplement iodine weekly my iCP shows 60-70. In 2023 before supplementing it I was at around 40, so not super low.

What is your Fluoride at?

 

[rtparty]

This topic simply becomes another “perfect is the enemy of great” conversation

I bet most reefers who use the TM ICP and Block system will have great results and water chemistry is very unlikely to be an issue. Worrying about every individual element and the ratio and all that nonsense will just hinder progress. Especially if we calculate in the unreliable nature of these ICP tests from ALL of the companies.

I’ll still argue that having A system is more important than THE system (assuming we pick a system that has shown success and makes sense.)

The systems that rely on ICP are inherently a poor choice IMO for most reefers

 

[winxp_man]

This topic simply becomes another “perfect is the enemy of great” conversation

I bet most reefers who use the TM ICP and Block system will have great results and water chemistry is very unlikely to be an issue. Worrying about every individual element and the ratio and all that nonsense will just hinder progress. Especially if we calculate in the unreliable nature of these ICP tests from ALL of the companies.

I’ll still argue that having A system is more important than THE system (assuming we pick a system that has shown success and makes sense.)

The systems that rely on ICP are inherently a poor choice IMO for most reefers

Another argument would be what type of tank a reefer might have. To elaborate more…. LPS will eat up trace elements differently vs a sps or softy and so on. I wonder to what degree this is also taken into this.

I’m of the principal to dose each element individually. It’s why I have each in its own bottle. I get the need to simplify this hobby, but I don’t see that with some things in the reef world. For now in regard to trace elements anyways. Then again just my ignorance of this hobby at this point haha.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This topic simply becomes another “perfect is the enemy of great” conversation

I bet most reefers who use the TM ICP and Block system will have great results and water chemistry is very unlikely to be an issue. Worrying about every individual element and the ratio and all that nonsense will just hinder progress. Especially if we calculate in the unreliable nature of these ICP tests from ALL of the companies.

I’ll still argue that having A system is more important than THE system (assuming we pick a system that has shown success and makes sense.)

The systems that rely on ICP are inherently a poor choice IMO for most reefers

Do you consider the blocks and improvement over TM A and K?

 

[areefer01]

That is interesting. I supplement iodine weekly my iCP shows 60-70. In 2023 before supplementing it I was at around 40, so not super low.

What is your Fluoride at?

ATI's reference is 1.27 mg/l. Fiji sample is 1.04. My last sample on 12/02 was .7.