Trying to not give up!

[racsoh]

I agree with the “take it slow” advice here but doubt 10% weekly water changes, or high phosphates, are main contributors to your torches and hammers dying,

You could have a bacterial issue going on especially if you are seeing recurring BJD on these corals. Did you start the tank with dry rock/sand by any chance?

I started with some rocks from my previous system a (20 gallons) that had been running for about 5 months and added some extra rocks. For sand I used a brand new of the Fiji Pink live sand.

 

[racsoh]

You are correct tymo. I was skimming and thought it said 100% water change.

Juat about 10% weekly water charge...sorry if there was a typo in my original post.

 

[NeedAReef]

back down the water change, you lose too much doing that. the more frequently you do it. otherwise you should be adding microbacter or something. I would go to 2x a month or every 1x month. Let it go for a bit, keep testing but you have to find out how good your filtration is too. You are rocking the boat a bit so to speak, plus when you go away for a week vacation or more, what happens, is the filtration good enough, is the auto feeder dumping too much, etc etc.
like everyone else says, take you time, don't chase numbers, it is like baking, it is a recipe and every body of water is different. takes time to learn yours.

 

[tymo92]

I started with some rocks from my previous system a (20 gallons) that had been running for about 5 months and added some extra rocks. For sand I used a brand new of the Fiji Pink live sand.

Assuming your issues are confined to torches/hammers, at this point I’d be trying an antibiotic bath on them. I suspect something bacterial. IME H2O2 and iodine dips can be more of a bandaid, especially if you have many corals that could be reinfecting each other.

Other than try not to rock the boat and keep things more stable. Don’t try to quickly chase parameters down as I don’t think that’s killing your corals.

 

[racsoh]

Let it run. Do small water changes weekly or bi weekly if things are stable.

My 210g tank is currently sitting at .9 phos and 75 nitrate most the time. I have seen it as high as 1.26 phos. Corals still looked good but growth was slow. I got tired of chasing numbers and burning $$$ on chemicals.

Beefed up my nutrient export by redoing my refugium (more like chaeto tank), payed more attention to my skimmer and added a algea turf scrubber.
I started feeding a lot less and I run my lights for 13 hrs a day. This is for 2 reasons.

I have 6 tangs and a foxface that do nothing but graze all day. I let the tank grow as much algea as it wants because the it feeds the fish and uses up the nutrients. Also feeding less makes the fish graze more. so far its a win/win and my tangs are still fat.

I am not talking GHA or cyano etc. but just the regular algea that covers the glass and rocks. I also have a non existent clean up crew thanks to my porcupine puffer.

These couple changes have helped slowly bring down the phos. and the ATS is still new, only been online 2 weeks. So I don't think it has been doing much.

My tank crashed a 3 months ago, lost 90% of my corals and I have just left it alone Till adding the ATS recently.
I almost sold everything and moved on but my wife talked me down from that ledge. I did 10% water changes every 2 weeks, scrubbed the glass and cleaned the socks every other day for the past 3 months. things are trending down... just let it run.

Tank is looking much better and I am back to enjoying sitting in front of it. The break was a nice reset. Time to start adding corals back.

I'm sorry to hear that. My wife has also been my support, about a week ago I was ready to pull the plug and she was the one who talked me into not doing it. Thanks!

 

[racsoh]

I’ve been reefing for 11yrs (still a noob compared to some OGs on this forum) and I periodically get the “I think I’m done” attitude because of a minor/major set back. But that’s part of this hobby, unlike other hobbies that you build around what pleases YOU, reefing is almost is like finding pleasure in what pleases your tank and its biome. We all see amazing reefs on Insta, FB, YouTube and say “that’s what I want!” not realizing these tanks don’t look like this in the long term (I would love to see a pristine bare bottom tank filled with high end mixed corals that is healthy that is more than 5 years old) or that we don’t have the time/money to invest in achieving a tank of that caliber (like hedgedrew66’s). Reefing is like a rollercoaster; there will ups and downs, boring parts, stressful parts, and fun parts and the most frustrating part is that we often can’t control where those stages are in our journey! The key is to do your part, follow instructions, pay attention, and have a great time!

Thanks for the advice

 

[racsoh]

You might also want to add a UV if it is a bacterial issue. Could help quite a bit.

I'm running UV. I've been running it sunce the tank was first set up. Maybe it was a mistake on my end l, I can't really tell.

 

[racsoh]

More info on the tank would be good. As mentioned above the p04 levels are high. It would be good to find out what the source of the phosphate is, especially since your doing weekly water changes. Also, what mechanism are you currently employing to lower the prostate? Ideally cutting back the input and slowly lowering your existing level levels would be a good practice

There's no much about it. Besides the life rocks the sand substrate. I have two clownfish, one pacific peppermint hogfish, one cori wrass, a six line wrass, a small tomini tang and a foxface that I'm looking to rehome.
One sandsifting startfish and an assortment of snails)

What other info would be helpful?

Thanks

 

[UnderWater1051]

Your tank is young and has probably not reached maturity yet. It was a good 2 yrs. before mine finally did. I battled hair algae, dinos & turf algae during that time. It also sounds like you are overstocked with coral. Everytime you perform a water change, you're adding more nutrients so you should slow this down. I also had an issue with high phosphate levels and this is what I learned.

First, check your salt to see how much P04 it contains. Each brand differs. Your rock contains and releases phosphate. Run gfo and test P04 weekly. You will have to change gfo out more frequently at first until the phosphate is removed and your P04 levels begin to drop. This may take awhile since your levels are so high. I don't know how many fish you have but reduce feeding. Food is supposed to be the primary cause of high P04 levels. Stick to frozen foods and rinse first to remove any phosphates the food may contain. Also, keep your skimmer cup empty & clean. You don't want it to overflow back into the tank. Last, clean your sand on a routine basis. Someone else previously mentioned this as well as blowing out debris that has accumulated in your rock. It is good advice. Only clean a section of sand every few days since your tank is so young. You don't want to cause an ammonia spike especially if you have any inverts in your tank. I learned this lesson the hard way.

Based on the age of your tank, you probably do not have enough beneficial bacteria in your rock alone so you don't want to remove any bacteria that may be thriving in the sand. You can clean the sand by routing the debris through a filter sock so the water returns to the tank but not the gunk. As you learned, there are dead areas in the tank where your flow does not reach and that's where problems can develop.

Once you get your phosphates under control, understand that most corals are not going to tolerate high P04 levels. Euphyllia need a range between 0.05 and 0.1. I believe they prefer nitrates between 10 to 15. A little lower or higher is fine as long as the levels remain stable. As everyone has stated, stability is key. You might also want to bump your magnesium up to 1450-1500 for Euphyllia.

I really hope some of this info helps since it seems like your high P04 levels is the primary source of your issues. A reef tank can be frustrating and there is so much to learn but you are so close, I hope you don't give up.

 

[racsoh]

Your params look fine , this might be a compatibility thing, or some “chemical warfare” in the tank that’s triggering a big BJD event.

With Euphyllia, even if they’re sold under the same name (hammer/torch/frogspawn), they can still be incompatible, a lot of it seems to come down to origin and subtle differences between colonies. I’d also consider a trace element issue, so sending an ICP test could help confirm if anything is drifting out of range.

I checked your thread from April (and your original build thread in October), and honestly, 80+ hammer frags in 6months in a 40g with dry rock start is pushing the system waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too fast.
That’s a massive coral load for a young tank, and once stress builds up (stability swings, trace imbalance, allelopathy), things can cascade quickly.

I started the same way , trying to “fill the gaps” with frags because waiting for growth felt too slow and wanted more instant gratification. It looked amazing for a short time, then I lost most of them to stinging/warfare (and I was mixing corals without really thinking through spacing/compatibility).

Went on a hiatus and just got back recently, and when I restart my reef, I’m setting one rule for myself:
Don’t fill gaps with frags, fill them with growth.

You're absolutely right about that. I think me wanting to have the instant gratification of a matured tank in such a short period of time, has definitely contributed to the issues. Thanks.

 

[racsoh]

I started with some rocks from my previous system a (20 gallons) that had been running for about 5 months and added some extra rocks. For sand I used a brand new of the Fiji Pink live sand.

Assuming your issues are confined to torches/hammers, at this point I’d be trying an antibiotic bath on them. I suspect something bacterial. IME H2O2 and iodine dips can be more of a bandaid, especially if you have many corals that could be reinfecting each other.

Other than try not to rock the boat and keep things more stable. Don’t try to quickly chase parameters down as I don’t think that’s killing your corals.

Thanks, I've been thinking on doing the antibiotics bath. I think that might help.

 

[Renfield42]

If you’re not vacuuming the sand you might give that a try. Do a portion of the tank each water change. There can be a lot more stuff built up there than you’d think. Things look better if nothing else.

Keep the rocks blown off as well.

My thinking is that if the cleanup crew hasn’t eaten/processed it I don’t want it building up in the tank.

I went through a stretch of elevated nitrates and phosphates that I think was related to snail die-off as a result of having too many for the tank to support.

I have also found that when I’m dosing phyto it seems to help keep the nutrients out of the water, to the point I have to avoid dosing too heavily.

This hobby is one of ups and downs and can definitely become discouraging. Stick with it and make changes incrementally. Eventually you can prevail.

 

[Sam7]

We will have no quitters here....you will succeed....

 

[Timfish]

I'm sorry to hear your having such a difficult time. Besides reiterating Ndrwater's post, here's what I would do. To start my primary method for dealing with nuisance algae is using steel straws to siphon off the algae and a couple short spine urchins (Just like Hawaii did). If you didn't use some ocean sourced live rock I would add some even if it meant taking ut some of your existing rock, see Aqubiomics article here, beside beneficial microbial stuff the cryptic sponges will help process the Disolved Organic Carbon DOC, carbon dosing) released by corals and algae. If possible, I would get some water from a well established reef system that has not had any issues for a year or more and do one or two water changes with it.

BE PATIENT! You're shifting the microbiomes in the water and corals and it will take time. The algae in your system is dumping DOC into your system that is negatively affecting your coral, making it difficult for your corals to compete and promote the autotrophic microbial processes beneficial for them to thrive. Aquabiomics test will show changes in the water happen quickly but shifting the processes and equilibrium throughout the ecosystem will take time.

Stick with 10% weekly water changes. Doing more, from what I've seen over the years, has diminishing returns for the labor involved. But water changes are ESSENTIAL as that is the only effective way aquarists can reduce both hydrophillic and hydrophobic "junk" in porportional amounts (skimmers only remove a portion of the hydrphobic and are skewing microbial counts). Lastly, some will siphon off algae and run it through a filter sock to conserve water, this doesn't remove the DOC and may actually concentrate it when it's added back to the system, in light of how this DOC causes problems I would not do it.

A final note, don't think bright colors and fast growth are the goal. Healthy corals, depending on species, can have fast growth and/or bright colors but fast both can also be indicators of problems.

Here's some links to check out.

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas " This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title. Used copies are available on line and it may be free to read on Internet Archive. Both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC (carbon dosing) in reef ecosystems and how it can alter coral microbiomes. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems and are an excellent starting point to understand the conflicting roles of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC, aka "carbon dosing") in reef ecosystems.


Delbeek Molar Ratios


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Microbial view of Coral Decline


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges Jones


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching


DNA Sequencing and the Reef Tank Microbiome


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

 

[racsoh]

If you’re not vacuuming the sand you might give that a try. Do a portion of the tank each water change. There can be a lot more stuff built up there than you’d think. Things look better if nothing else.

Keep the rocks blown off as well.

My thinking is that if the cleanup crew hasn’t eaten/processed it I don’t want it building up in the tank.

I went through a stretch of elevated nitrates and phosphates that I think was related to snail die-off as a result of having too many for the tank to support.

I have also found that when I’m dosing phyto it seems to help keep the nutrients out of the water, to the point I have to avoid dosing too heavily.

This hobby is one of ups and downs and can definitely become discouraging. Stick with it and make changes incrementally. Eventually you can prevail.

Thanks, I'll try to vacuum the sand, which, if I'm being honest, I only did at one point. Thanks

 

[racsoh]

I'm sorry to hear your having such a difficult time. Besides reiterating Ndrwater's post, here's what I would do. To start my primary method for dealing with nuisance algae is using steel straws to siphon off the algae and a couple short spine urchins (Just like Hawaii did). If you didn't use some ocean sourced live rock I would add some even if it meant taking ut some of your existing rock, see Aqubiomics article here, beside beneficial microbial stuff the cryptic sponges will help process the Disolved Organic Carbon DOC, carbon dosing) released by corals and algae. If possible, I would get some water from a well established reef system that has not had any issues for a year or more and do one or two water changes with it.

BE PATIENT! You're shifting the microbiomes in the water and corals and it will take time. The algae in your system is dumping DOC into your system that is negatively affecting your coral, making it difficult for your corals to compete and promote the autotrophic microbial processes beneficial for them to thrive. Aquabiomics test will show changes in the water happen quickly but shifting the processes and equilibrium throughout the ecosystem will take time.

Stick with 10% weekly water changes. Doing more, from what I've seen over the years, has diminishing returns for the labor involved. But water changes are ESSENTIAL as that is the only effective way aquarists can reduce both hydrophillic and hydrophobic "junk" in porportional amounts (skimmers only remove a portion of the hydrphobic and are skewing microbial counts). Lastly, some will siphon off algae and run it through a filter sock to conserve water, this doesn't remove the DOC and may actually concentrate it when it's added back to the system, in light of how this DOC causes problems I would not do it.

A final note, don't think bright colors and fast growth are the goal. Healthy corals, depending on species, can have fast growth and/or bright colors but fast both can also be indicators of problems.

Here's some links to check out.

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas " This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title. Used copies are available on line and it may be free to read on Internet Archive. Both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC (carbon dosing) in reef ecosystems and how it can alter coral microbiomes. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems and are an excellent starting point to understand the conflicting roles of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC, aka "carbon dosing") in reef ecosystems.


Delbeek Molar Ratios


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Microbial view of Coral Decline


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges Jones


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching


DNA Sequencing and the Reef Tank Microbiome


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

Thanks a lot for your advice! That information is amazing! I will read the article and watch the videos. THANKS !

 

[Staghorn]

There's no much about it. Besides the life rocks the sand substrate. I have two clownfish, one pacific peppermint hogfish, one cori wrass, a six line wrass, a small tomini tang and a foxface that I'm looking to rehome.
One sandsifting startfish and an assortment of snails)

What other info would be helpful?

Thanks

What do you feed the fish and corals? How often. It seems to me like a reading of .5 for P04 is extremely high, especially if you are doing weekly water changes.

 

[racsoh]

There's no much about it. Besides the life rocks the sand substrate. I have two clownfish, one pacific peppermint hogfish, one cori wrass, a six line wrass, a small tomini tang and a foxface that I'm looking to rehome.
One sandsifting startfish and an assortment of snails)

What other info would be helpful?

Thanks

What do you feed the fish and corals? How often. It seems to me like a reading of .5 for P04 is extremely high, especially if you are doing weekly water changes.

I just to feed Red Sea AB+, and Reef Roid broadcast. As for the fish, frozen Mysis Shrimp and Nori. Only feed flakes or pellets while I was traveling.
I also feed phyto for the pods, but since all the issues started I've been only feeding Nori and the Mysis.

I feed the fish daily, about a cube and the nori small piece since most of the fish are omnivores.

Everything was doing great. The flesh on my torches was long an healthy, the same as the hammers.

Then one day I noticed that the corals were not opening as much and when the lights turned off, I noticed that the flesh band was retracted and puffy, and that's when everything started to go downhill. Then, the accident with the powerhead and the sand blasting ditritus and only God knows what else into the water column. I think that was the last drop.

 

[Noobreefer84]

I am at the 1 yr 2m mark on my Red Sea Max Nano G2 XL and I understand where you are coming from. Being out of the Hobby since before 2007 and coming back, there was a lot to relearn. I was doing all the same things you were, and getting frustrated. Chasing PO4 and No3 numbers, using chemicals to deal with issues... then I decided to just let it ride.

I did my weekly 10 - 15% water change, which I scraped off bubble algae and sucked it out. I got a few emerald crabs to handle the rest.

What I noticed as the weeks/months went by, the tank just "dealt with itself". Its not perfect, my figures are not on point, but I stopped chasing, tweaking and playing with every setting I could. Corals got happier, colors got better, they started to grow faster and the tank is just over all healthier.

I do my weekly tests every Saturday morning, takes about 30 minutes. I adjust my dose for 2 part if needed based on the weekly trend. Do my 1x 5g bucket water change. Total time is 1hr or so a week other than the time to make the water and daily feeding + glass cleaning.

Success came when I stopped trying to fix every problem I saw immediately with some chemical or snap solution I googled.

That being said, I got the tank stable just to upgrade to a Waterbox 110.4 which is has been running its cycle since beginning of Nov. So Im about to start it all over again.

 

[racsoh]

Juat came back from my trip. I was away on the holidays with my family and kids and found 2/3 of my corals dead.

My phosphate skyrocket to 0.75ppm, and my nitrates are at 7.8ppm, and it looks like I lost a clownfish that has been with me since I started in the hobby - I can't find it anywhere. I think that cleaning crew might have disposed of it.

The tank is looking like a graveyard .

I think it is time for a reboot.

I'm going place to place some PhosGuard and Carbon to try to keep everything alive while I wait for a custom HDPE piece for the bottom - I'm going bare bottom.

I think that accident with the powerhead that stirred the sand (which was black at the bottom and had some black things on it), released toxic anaerobic bacteria and hydrogen sulfide sending a wave of toxic waste into the tank.

This has been a humbling and sad experience.

I've put a lot of work, time, and money into this tank.

I'm not giving up just yet, but I'm at the tipping point.

I've lost several collector's hammers and torches. All my favias are gone, as well as my bubble corals. Some Chalices are still holding up, but one is showing the skeleton on the edges. All my Acans are showing a lot of the skeleton as well.

Thanks to all for your help a encouraging words.

I'll do a reboot and keep what I have a let it grow. I have faith and I'm hoping that the stronger corals will survive while I prepare for the reboot.