TTM Failure on Moorish Idol

[puffy127]

I've done TTM on over 20 fish and never had any failures. My new moorish idol made it through TTM like a champ, but now on the 6th day in my cycled QT, he is showing signs of ich. It is possible there was user error, but like I said, I've done it with over 20 fish with no issues. It is possible that my cycled QT may have been infected, but I have had other fish (that were TTM'd) go into the cycled QT (and subsequently into the DT) with no issues.

I'm contemplating using copper, but having never used copper before, I'm a little hesistant. I have cupramine and coppersafe. Which would be better for a moorish idol? How difficult is it to maintain therapeutic levels? I have a sponge filter in the QT for biological filtration. Is that ok or will that absorb some of the copper? What causes the levels of copper to change? I'm concerned about maintaining the therapeutic levels because I will be out of town for portions of the treatment.

Here are photos of the MI. He was eating pellets, mysis, LRS, nori from day 1. Still eating like a pig.

 

[tgp4274]

TTM?????

 

[puffy127]

TTM?????

Tank Transfer Method : https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

 

[tgp4274]

aaahhhhhhh ok thanks

unfortunaly i not QT.......
sooooooo......
i would guess let run course n hope improves

alot of my fish have developed white spots but within afew days..
good luck

 

[Zack K]

aaahhhhhhh ok thanks

unfortunaly i not QT.......
sooooooo......
i would guess let run course n hope improves

alot of my fish have developed white spots but within afew days..
good luck

This works with only hardier fish. (Ich Management) but more delicate fish (Acanthurus Tangs, Moorish Idol, even Butterflies) will be targeted and not live over a few months.

@Maritimer @Humblefish #reefsquad to answer your question.

 

[4FordFamily]

This works with only hardier fish. (Ich Management) but more delicate fish (Acanthurus Tangs, Moorish Idol, even Butterflies) will be targeted and not live over a few months.

@Maritimer @Humblefish #reefsquad to answer your question.

Agree. Your idol will succumb and stop eating soon. Here’s an article on keeping them that explains further.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/keeping-the-mysterious-moorish-idol.72/

Also, coppersafe is fine for them. The reason TTM didn’t work may be because it doesn’t work on velvet, which is more common than ich these days, IMO

 

[puffy127]

Could it be velvet instead of ich?

 

[EddieJ]

I don’t use a cycled QT in my routine. After the 12 days of TTM they go into a fresh QT. In use SeaChem stability and some matrix media in a HOB.. I always suck out Any uneaten food and poop, have AmGuard on hand , and watch for ammonia.. water changes keep it all fresh and I use this time to finish of raising the SG to match my systems..

Good thing is you caught it in QT.. maybe clean out you QT and let it dry out while you run him back thru TTM. Doesn’t look like Velvet, but I am no expert..

 

[Maritimer]

I was about to say "it doesn't _look_ like velvet", but then took a second look at the idol. He seems to have a relatively large head and eyes, which indicates to me that he's a pretty little fellow - and a very pretty little fellow, he is!

I've used Coppersafe with a number of fish, including tangs, but haven't attempted an idol as yet, so I'll defer to @4FordFamily on that one. He says it's safe, so I'd go ahead and do it. He's got a pretty amazing track record with idols and tangs.

~Bruce

 

[4FordFamily]

I was about to say "it doesn't _look_ like velvet", but then took a second look at the idol. He seems to have a relatively large head and eyes, which indicates to me that he's a pretty little fellow - and a very pretty little fellow, he is!

I've used Coppersafe with a number of fish, including tangs, but haven't attempted an idol as yet, so I'll defer to @4FordFamily on that one. He says it's safe, so I'd go ahead and do it. He's got a pretty amazing track record with idols and tangs.

~Bruce

I’ve succesfly brought probably 8 of them through coppersafe and one or two through cupramine. I don’t find them to be sensitive to it at all.

 

[4FordFamily]

I do agree that the spots look too big to be velvet, now that I’m on a larger screen. However, it could be afflicted by both.

It is important for any casual readers to know that TTM doesn’t work on velvet, which is the most dangerous parasite in the hobby by a large margin.

Ich that bad isn’t clearing up on it’s own, not without the fish deciding it’s too stressed/ill to eat. Idols don’t start eating again once they quit. I would fight very hard to prevent that from happening.

 

[olecaptainj]

This works with only hardier fish. (Ich Management) but more delicate fish (Acanthurus Tangs, Moorish Idol, even Butterflies) will be targeted and not live over a few months.

@Maritimer @Humblefish #reefsquad to answer your question.

And to the casual reader this statement is absolutely false. My current and former live stock in my “ich management” tanks prove otherwise. As do several other reefers here, most notably Paul B.

No need to scare people saying they will NOT live more than a few months....

 

[Zack K]

Velvet Picture if you want to compare

My PB currently...

-Zack

 

[4FordFamily]

And to the casual reader this statement is absolutely false. My current and former live stock in my “ich management” tank proce otherwise. As do several other reefers here, most notably Paul B.

No need to scare people saying they will NOT live more than a few months....

Paul doesn’t own any acanthurus tangs, or any overly susceptible fish to parasites. No tangs at all, in fact. Reasons be what they may, the vast majority won’t succeed with “ich management” with these species.

Here’s an article on the subject should you wish to learn more.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ich-and-acanthurus-tangs-years-of-experience-and-ich-management.106/

There are exceptions to every rule, but they’re statistically scarce. All three people that tout successes with it don’t outweigh the dozens per week posting, and the hundreds elsewhere reading and not posting.

It might also be useful to know I used ich management for 10 years.

 

[HotRocks]

Paul doesn’t own any acanthurus tangs, or any overtly susceptible fish to parasites. No tangs at all, in fact. Reasons be what they may, the vast majority won’t succeed with “ich management” with these species.

Here’s an article on the subject should you wish to learn more.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ich-and-acanthurus-tangs-years-of-experience-and-ich-management.106/

There are exceptions to every rule, but they’re statistically scarce. All three people that tout successes with it don’t outweigh the dozens per week posting, and the hundreds elsewhere reading and not posting.

It might also be useful to know I used ich management for 10 years.

It might also be useful to know that @4ford family has successfully kept most of the hard to keep fish in the hobby, I'd take his advice. Completely agree with the above. Some Acanthurus tangs, certain angels and idols should only be kept by experts. With healthy diet and disease-free DT, they aren't that hard to keep. But getting them to that point is where lies the issue. HAPPY REEFING!

 

[olecaptainj]

Paul doesn’t own any acanthurus tangs, or any overtly susceptible fish to parasites. No tangs at all, in fact. Reasons be what they may, the vast majority won’t succeed with “ich management” with these species.

Here’s an article on the subject should you wish to learn more.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ich-and-acanthurus-tangs-years-of-experience-and-ich-management.106/

There are exceptions to every rule, but they’re statistically scarce. All three people that tout successes with it don’t outweigh the dozens per week posting, and the hundreds elsewhere reading and not posting.

It might also be useful to know I used ich management for 10 years.

lol I lol take my 11 years of experience with ich and delicate fish over reading an opinion.

Here’s my past fish list that ALL had ich and I have NEVER qt’d.

Blonde naso
Moorish idol
Black back bfly
Copperband bfly
Saddleback bfly
Blue line bfly
Raccoon bfly
Powder Browns
Powder blues



Again making a blanket statement saying they will not live more than a few months in flat out wrong and irresponsible.

 

[4FordFamily]

lol I lol take my 11 years of experience with ich and delicate fish over reading an opinion.

Here’s my past fish list that ALL had ich and I have NEVER qt’d.

Blonde naso
Moorish idol
Black back bfly
Copperband bfly
Saddleback bfly
Blue line bfly
Raccoon bfly
Powder Browns
Powder blues



Again making a blanket statement saying they will not live more than a few months in flat out wrong and irresponsible.

That’s fantastic, I appreciate the equally anecdotal experiences you’ve shared.

One critical difference now from before, is that velvet is just as common if not more common than ich. Managing that is a lot more difficult.

I get it though, Paul’s methods (which the vast majority of people that follow them don’t actually fully practice — just try to feed away illness rather than the whole picture as he does) appear easier and we want to believe they work. I was banned from ReefCentral for my anti-quarantine opinions. I was as ornery (and wrong) as they come. For each “success” I killed a lot of fish unnecessarily.

Also, it’s not a blanket statement to say that most people will not win the powerball in the United States. Some do. Nothing is absolute, especially in this hobby. Expecting an idol or acanthurus tang to survive parasite management in today’s environment is not reasonable and a near guarantee of failure, unfortunately.

 

[puffy127]

Thanks guys for all the advice. I'm a strong believer in ich eradication/QT and ich management is not something I am considering, so let's leave that for other threads. I have decided to treat with copper safe. What is the best way to ramp up to therapeutic levels (how much in how many days)? Once at the therapeutic level, what will cause that level to change (other than water changes)? If it goes too high, how do I bring it down? Through water changes? What else should I watch out for?

 

[4FordFamily]

Thanks guys for all the advice. I'm a strong believer in ich eradication and QT and ich management is not something I am considering, so let's leave that for other threads. I have decided to treat with copper safe. What is the best way to ramp up to therapeutic levels (how much in how many days)? Once at the therapeutic level, what will cause that level to change (other than water changes)? If it goes too high, how do I bring it down? Through water changes? What else should I watch out for?

I increase copper with dosing in the morning and the afternoon. One thing to be mindful of is that the dosing on the bottle (coppersafe) is completely incorrect. In my 55 qt, I usually add one capful in the am and one capful at night until I reach therapeutic (tested via api test kit) at 2.0 ppm.

Here’s the thread about properly dosing: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/proper-dosing-of-coppersafe.309726/

Regarding fluctuations, live rock and live sand can absorb copper, live rock in particular. Remove all carbon or other media from the quarantine as they will also remove it. Not much will be absorbed if you follow those suggestions.

Ensure that your water you replace during water changes has the copper mixed in already, so the idol is never out of therapeutic copper for even a moment.

Also, to kick start the nitrogen cycle and omit most ammonia issues, I highly recommend dr tims or bio spira “bacteria in a bottle”. They work absolute magic, each of my new qt tanks gets both (but in truth only one is needed if you follow instructions).

Make sure you have an ammonia alert badge by Seachem to monitor ammonia, as most ammonia tests show false positives in copper. If the badge reads anything other than safe (yellow), do a large water change again and add more bacteria in a bottle.

 

[puffy127]

I increase copper with dosing in the morning and the afternoon. One thing to be mindful of is that the dosing on the bottle is completely incorrect. In my 55 qt, I usually add one capful in the am and one capful at night until I reach therapeutic (tested via api test kit) at 2.0 ppm.

Regarding fluctuations, live rock and live sand can absorb copper, live rock in particular. Remove all carbon or other media from the quarantine as they will also remove it. Not much will be absorbed if you follow those suggestions.

Ensure that your water you replace during water changes has the copper mixed in already, so the idol is never out of therapeutic copper for even a moment.

Also, to kick start the nitrogen cycle and omit most ammonia issues, I highly recommend dr tims or bio spira “bacteria in a bottle”. They work absolute magic, each of my new qt tanks gets both (but in truth only one is needed if you follow instructions).

Make sure you have an ammonia alert badge by Seachem to monitor ammonia, as most ammonia tests show false positives in copper. If the badge reads anything other than safe (yellow), do a large water change again and add more bacteria in a bottle.

Great, thanks. I have a seeded sponge filter in there right now for biological filtration. Will that absorb copper?