Two Methodoligies to keep a reef tank

Sabellafella · Dec 23, 2015

Paul B said:
Cb684, thank you for responding. I agree with most of what you said as I have researched this extensively before I wrote what I linked above. As I said, I can only go by my experiences and my fish have been totally immune from everything for at least 35 years. Some of my fish are in their 20s and all of my paired fish are spawning. I can, and do put fish in my tank with obvious ick and velvet infections. I have put copperband butterflies in my tank even though the rest of them just died in the store. I recently added 3 shrimpfish and one died the next day covered in parasites, I just left him in there for the crabs. I collect NSW along with mud and amphipods weekly in the summer and dump all of that in my tank. I have been called lucky but I doubt that is it. The reason I decided to delve into immunity was to try to figure out why my fish just don't get sick. Never. So far no one can answer that for me. I think it is due to the live foods or more exactly, the bacteria with possible parasites I feed every day. I do not know how long immunity lasts and I am sure it varies due to species. But if you search on any forum as you know you will find countless examples of tanks that were lost due to disease even though they were quarantined. As I said, quarantining is one way to go. But getting your fish immune through pathogen exposure and live, bacteria and parasite laden foods seems to keep them safe. I can't explain what else is keeping my fish healthy. I have my tank going continousely since 1971 and it has never crashed for the last 35 years or so through disease or anything else. Do you have a theory on that? I am at a loss.

Paul my take on this is the reason why this law of physics its not murdering ur fish is stress in the wild every fish prob has some crazy parasite on them but when you go diving youll never see one sugar sprinkled fish, i understand the parasite is concentrated in a home aquarium but then again the fish in the wild arent lockedup in a 6 foot by 2 foot cell everyday, i think if a fish is in a suitable comfy environment with or without parasites stress free they should be fine, my first tank i had about every outbreak of anything imaginable and the only thing i lost after 7 years was a copperband butterfly

Longnose Hawkfish · Dec 23, 2015

Good read. I used to not put any of my fish through quarantine. I always feed frozen food and keep my water parameters in check. However, I introduced the flukes into my system through a new fish and just like that I lost over half my fish. I treated the rest with prazipro and metroplex and they are doing fine. After dealing with this I always want to quarantine my fish. I think proper quarantining can save a lot of headaches in the future.

Wiz · Dec 23, 2015

Happy bday and merry xmas paul. great debate. Which I will leave to the rest of you and learn. My instinct is that it can't be bad to make the enviornment as it would be in nature. I do not quarentine. I take my chances. And I hate dipping. I love diversity even in my microfauna. Visual inspection only. I would hate to kill all the cool critters that I want on the chance a bad guy made it in. Ill cross that bridge when I come to it. 10 years and goin strong. A lot of little annoyances but overall very satisfying!

KPhilly · Dec 24, 2015

I love discussions like this. I like the biological side of the hobby. I know articles were posted already and some books, but does anyone have any readings they would suggest. If it betters my knowledge then I'm all in to learn. It can only help make my tank more successful.

Paul B · Dec 24, 2015

cb684, the purpose of this thread was just to get people thinking and start a discussion which is why I said that quarantining is one way to go. It is of course not the only way. As Buzzword mentioned he lost more fish in quarantine than anywhere else and that is a common problem because a stressed fish will be many times more stressed in a sterile quarantine tank as that is not a normal situation for a fish to be in. I realize a tank is also not the best place for a fish to be in. We can tell if our tanks are suitable for fish easily. That is if the fish are spawning. Spawning fish are in the healthiest state they can be in and if your paired fish are not spawning, they are not healthy. All fish spawn all the time and mine do. I am only talking about fish that will spawn in a tank which would be just about all fish that make some sort of nest, not egg scatters like tangs as they need more room.
I believe food has a lot to do with this which is why I use no dry sterile food. I certainly want the nutrients in fresh food but I also want the bacteria in their gut and the oil in their gut. A fishes diet contains a large portion of fish oil as all fish have a liver and that liver could be 20% of the weight of the fish. The liver is almost all oil. I try to get this oil into my fish at every meal which is one reason they are always spawning. A fishes spawn is almost all oil and those eggs could be a third of the weight of the Mother fish. That oil also helps the immune system function as it was designed.
If a shark eats a 100lb grouper, it is getting about 15lbs of fish oil. That's a lot of oil. That oil would kill us but fish were designed to eat other fish so they would eat a lot of oil.
Some articles I wrote.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/fish-biology-lesson-3230/

http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/in-praise-of-fish-oil-6127/

Paul B · Dec 24, 2015

Sabellafella, while it may be true that my fish all like Supermodels, the reason my fish don't get sick is, as you said, lack of stress. Much of that is because I run a simple tank with very little tinkering with the water. I like natural so I don't use pellets, or any other weird stuff although I have experimented with everything just for fun. None of those experiments improved my tank and virtually all of them made it worse. My fish feel secure because the tank is not fiddled with much and I don't change much water. I realize the first thing people say when there is a problem is to change the water. Does that ever work? No it doesn't. Water actually gets better as it ages, "to an extent". Did you ever see a brand new tank with all new water? Did it look healthy? No, it didn't. Why is that? You would think new anything is better but not in all cases. When does a car give you the most problems? Right after you drive it home from the showroom. That is because it is new and gets recalled or something doesn't work. After a few months all the bugs get ironed out and the thing lasts for a number of years before new problems start. New tanks with new water are horrible at keeping things alive so why do we change so much water? If you changed 100% of your water what do you think would happen? I can tell you. Your tank would probably have a huge hair algae bloom along with the fish coming down with ich or a social disease. Don't believe me! Try it.
Live food is also a big part of keeping fish healthy. Remember when we were all keeping fresh water fish? If we wanted to breed them what's the first thing we read to do? Feed live food. We can't all the time get live food (I can) but we can use either live or frozen clams because clams also have bacteria in them especially because for 7 years before they were collected they were sitting on the bottom of a bay filtering the water. They are also full of minerals including calcium. Do you know why fish need calcium? I am glad you asked. If a fish eats another fish (which is their main food in the sea) do they spit out the bones? No they don't. They don't because fish bones, like Christie Brinkley's bones are made of calcium and fish need calcium. Calcium and oil. Do you think there is bacteria, and oil in dry foods? No there isn't. Do you know why? Because fish oil stinks and goes bad with oxygen and dry food is baked and has preservatives. This stuff is so easy but so many people continue to feed their fish dry, sterile foods and wonder why they spend more on fish medications, hospital tanks and quarantine tanks then they do on their girlfriends. Feed your fish, and your girlfriend the proper foods and they will both reward you.

http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/want-healthy-spawning-fish-feed-them-properly-5010/

cb684 · Dec 24, 2015

Paul B I am a scientist. The fact that you have a very successful tank where fishes spawn frequently and live long tells me you are doing something right...
What it does not tell me is that quarantine is not the best way to go, or that people should try to add fish to their tanks that were not quarantined before.
But in this discussion I feel like the old chubby physician trying to tell people that açai berry will not get them a six-pack. The guy that is telling people to buy the berry have a six pack and swear that is what makes the difference. He is a supermodel! Again, he is doing something right, I just do not have enough evidences to believe it is the açai berry.

Paul B · Dec 24, 2015

cb684 I am a retired electrician/writer and inventor. I can now say that because I have a couple of patents and wrote a book besides a bunch of threads full of mostly nonsense.

I did not tell or advise people not to quarantine. I just said that is one way to go, but not the "only" way. You can also quarantine your fish "and" keep them immune which may be the best way . I also said all noobs and people who feed mostly dry food should quarantine as well as all people who's fish are not spawning. That is the criteria and that also excludes most of the people in this hobby. This thread was just to get people to think and maybe advance their skills or at least know about advanced skills. As a scientist you know that research is what drives the scientific community. Research on ornamental fish is limited and the little research that is done would be done on food fish. All research takes place until a conclusion is found or, like in most cases the money runs out. Research on ich lasts for a few months or a couple of years, hardly enough time to come to any conclusions as the lifespan of even the smallest fish is much longer than that. I have been researching this for about 35 years as my tank is 44 years old. But in the first few years, when the hobby started I thought all fish had spots as part of their decoration. In other words, I was housing an ich farm.

. In those days I kept copper pennies in my tank continuously just to keep parasites at bay. But after about 10 years of that I realized that there was a better way. I learned how to get my fish immune from just about everything except jumping on the floor which is now the only way I lose fish. Except for that, virtually all of my fish die of old age and spawn along the way as "all" healthy fish do. So my experiment or research has been going on without a sickness for 35 years. I think that is long enough to determine that my fish are immune. How do you feel about that? Or should I wait another 6 years when my tank will be 50? At that time I may take it down because I will be like 100.

People call me lucky but there are still no Supermodels banging at my door. Go figure.

http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/seasoned-saltys-marine-aquarium-success-2966/

eatbreakfast · Dec 24, 2015

Paul B said:
cb684 I am a retired electrician/writer and inventor. I can now say that because I have a couple of patents and wrote a book besides a bunch of threads full of mostly nonsense.
I did not tell or advise people not to quarantine. I just said that is one way to go, but not the "only" way. You can also quarantine your fish "and" keep them immune which may be the best way . I also said all noobs and people who feed mostly dry food should quarantine as well as all people who's fish are not spawning. That is the criteria and that also excludes most of the people in this hobby. This thread was just to get people to think and maybe advance their skills or at least know about advanced skills. As a scientist you know that research is what drives the scientific community. Research on ornamental fish is limited and the little research that is done would be done on food fish. All research takes place until a conclusion is found or, like in most cases the money runs out. Research on ich lasts for a few months or a couple of years, hardly enough time to come to any conclusions as the lifespan of even the smallest fish is much longer than that. I have been researching this for about 35 years as my tank is 44 years old. But in the first few years, when the hobby started I thought all fish had spots as part of their decoration. In other words, I was housing an ich farm. . In those days I kept copper pennies in my tank continuously just to keep parasites at bay. But after about 10 years of that I realized that there was a better way. I learned how to get my fish immune from just about everything except jumping on the floor which is now the only way I lose fish. Except for that, virtually all of my fish die of old age and spawn along the way as "all" healthy fish do. So my experiment or research has been going on without a sickness for 35 years. I think that is long enough to determine that my fish are immune. How do you feel about that? Or should I wait another 6 years when my tank will be 50? At that time I may take it down because I will be like 100.
People call me lucky but there are still no Supermodels banging at my door. Go figure.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/seasoned-saltys-marine-aquarium-success-2966/

In fairness, while you are observing the results of what you are doing, and having a lot of success in doing it, you are advocating a combination of steps, but really any one of these steps could be the sole key, or a combination of a couple and some of what you are advocating could be completely useless (not saying that it is, it just could be). There is no control group. Have you stopped feeding live foods and seen the fish stop spawning and begin to develop disease? Only by taking steps such as these and repeating them with same or similar results can anything be proven. Right now we are observing a correlation, but without testing it it could simply be due to some other facet that hasn't been considered.

Paul B · Dec 24, 2015

Eatbreakfast, of course you are totally correct. It may just be my good looks or what I, and my fish watch on TV that keeps them healthy. I have no idea. I think the only things I do differently than most people is add mud from the sea and feed live foods every day along with clams. The rest of the stuff I do, everybody does. I do know that for the first few years that I kept fish they did not spawn at all. They were all damsels as that was all that was available but they didn't spawn until about 2 weeks after I started to feed live worms. I have been feeding live worms ever since. I have never stopped feeding live foods as that would be silly.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/

This is that blue devil circa 1972 over his nest of eggs.

Here are his eggs.

These are spawning mandarins.

These are spawning clown gobies, you can see the eggs.

Here is a pregnant blue stripe pipefish

Pregnant ruby red dragonette.

Watchman gobi with her eggs.

Here is a video a couple of weeks ago of the 23 year old fireclowns spawning

This is the condition healthy fish are always supposed to be in. In this shape they will be immune as long as they are occasionally exposed to pathogens.

watchguy123 · Dec 24, 2015

I like what you do (feed live food) and I am very impressed about your fish spawning.

Healthy and stress free fish that live long lives and spawn, wow! Undoubtedly, it is the live food. And I'm pretty sure it's not because of your undergravel filter! Although I am not so sure about the bacteria in their belly. Regardless, whether it is gut induced immunity or just improved vitality, you indeed have healthier fish due to live food.

eatbreakfast · Dec 24, 2015

I think you would be crazy to stop doing anything you were doing, much like a ball player on a hitting streak, even though it's probably the batting practice and pregame prep that is responsible for his success, there is still the notshaving the beard that just may be part of it. I tend to agree with most of your hypotheses, particularly with fish oils and gut probiotics, but would still like to see them tested to know for sure.

chefjpaul · Dec 24, 2015

Maybe quarantine has nothing to do with anything.

Paul feeds live foods, nutritional based diet.

He also introduces natural bacteria from the sea.

I'm a firm believer in bacterias good and bad & nutritional foods, (as a chef), Maybe the combo of these is the key.

I will state, I have never quarantined a fish being keeping them since I was 8yrs. , only coral and great success so far.

I do introduce bacterias via probiotics and feed home made & fresh seafoods.

dochow · Dec 25, 2015

Excellent read. This is why I'm on this forum, to learn from experience. It's always good to read, but conversations like this are invaluable.

What live foods are people using?

Can I go to my grocery store and buy some clams, oysters, shrimp, chop them up and feed them? How fine to chop them?

I don't really have other live foods available and I'm in PA and land-locked...

How about tangs? Live foods for them? Live algae?

paraletho · Dec 25, 2015

Paul I had sharks in a 360 gallon tank. I am a biological technician 22 yrs. now for a state natural resources agency. I had access to fresh fish, shrimp, and squid. Not frozen caught that day and fed that day. My sharks layed purses in the tank and we hatched them hanging from veggie clips. The young sharks did not fare so well. They all died within weeks. A shark expert from Ohio of all places explained that it is a common mistake that many people make. I was trying to use my fresh seafood frozen and then thawed for convenience to feed the young sharks. When frozen food is thawed it should be done gradually in a refrigerator. Why? Because quick thawing destroys a large percentage of the HUFA's critical to the fishes health( especially young developing sharks). I agree with the old saying "You are what you eat" and I agree with your approach. Everything we do the good and the bad with our tanks helps us to understand not just the inhabitants but the place that they come from.

Paul B · Dec 26, 2015

I have an answer to both queries. Shrimp, squid, octopus and fish fillets are not a great food. They are good but not great. I don't know about destroying HUFAs as that may be true, I don't know. But what I do know is that when we feed shrimp, squid or fish we are only feeding the muscles of those animals and fish need the guts. We don't eat the guts, but we are not fish. The only foods where the guts are fed is shellfish or worms. When we buy shrimp in the US we are only getting the tail muscle. (except fresh caught whole shrimp and squid) Squid and octopus we are also only getting muscle. This is not the part of those animals our fish need, especially sharks. All whole fish have a liver and that liver is huge. It could be 20% of the weight of the fish and it is used for at least two purposes. Fish use the oil in their liver for buoyancy along with their swim bladder because fish are heavier than water and oil floats. Sharks have a larger liver because sharks have no swim bladder and depend on their liver exclusively for buoyancy. Of course sharks also use their fins to correct course but the oil in the liver is a big part of their swimming ability.
When a shark eats a fish such as a 100lb grouper, it is getting maybe 12lbs of pure fish oil. That's an awful lot of oil but sharks need a lot of oil and they get it with every meal as sharks do not eat only shrimp tails and squid tentacles. we do. So fish evolved eating about 10% of their meal as fish oil but do we feed that? No, we don't. Why? A few reasons. It stinks. It goes bad in the presence of oxygen. It is hard to come by in normal fish food that we can buy. It is not in dry foods for the reasons I mentioned and it doesn't dry well. Heating destroys is. But it is in whole fish which we can almost never find in fish small enough to get to our fish. I use whole clams or any shellfish because when you feed a shellfish, you feed the entire thing along with the guts and the oil in their liver (which is not the same as fish oil but still oil and probably as good) Mysis is good as they have guts, but Mysis are mostly shell and that shell is not calcium so it is just wasted bulk and supplies no nutrition. For me the best all around food we can get besides tiny, whole fish that we can't get is live blackworms. They have the guts, the oil in their liver (I think they have a liver but I am not the God of worms so I can't be sure) and the living bacteria in their gut that I am always espousing as a source of immunity. So in conclusion, I feed what I feel is the best foods, clams, live worms and a little Mysis. For my small fish I feed new born, live brine shrimp as they have a yolk sac that is an excellent food. Not getting enough oil is the biggest reason most fish in captivity don't spawn as a fish spawn is almost all oil and could be a third of the weight of the fish. It could also be the reason baby sharks die.
See these fish fry? They are all over the place and the normal diet of most reef fish, not flakes, angle formula 22, pellets, or shrimp tails.

Clams.

If you have oysters, send them to me to eat, let the fish eat cake.

See this watchman (or watchgirl) gobi with her eggs? Those eggs are almost all oil which she gets in her diet because she is in my tank.

See these baby octopus that hatched out in my tank? These would make excellent food, but they were just to cute to feed.

chefjpaul · Dec 26, 2015

That was my point Paul, foods and bacterias.

I personally have access to whole - fresh sea foods, I use a variety in my mixes.

I keep the filets to eat or serve to customers, rest is fishy food blends. Different sizes, different natural oils, guts, proteins, ofals, etc.

My fish prefer muffins over cake BTW, maybe has to do with a different bacteria being introduced than your snobby cake eating fishes.

Paul B · Dec 26, 2015

Hi Chef. You are correct, my fish are Snobs.

Mightyfish · Jan 2, 2016

Paul B said:
I have an answer to both queries. Shrimp, squid, octopus and fish fillets are not a great food. They are good but not great. I don't know about destroying HUFAs as that may be true, I don't know. But what I do know is that when we feed shrimp, squid or fish we are only feeding the muscles of those animals and fish need the guts. We don't eat the guts, but we are not fish. The only foods where the guts are fed is shellfish or worms. When we buy shrimp in the US we are only getting the tail muscle. (except fresh caught whole shrimp and squid) Squid and octopus we are also only getting muscle. This is not the part of those animals our fish need, especially sharks. All whole fish have a liver and that liver is huge. It could be 20% of the weight of the fish and it is used for at least two purposes. Fish use the oil in their liver for buoyancy along with their swim bladder because fish are heavier than water and oil floats. Sharks have a larger liver because sharks have no swim bladder and depend on their liver exclusively for buoyancy. Of course sharks also use their fins to correct course but the oil in the liver is a big part of their swimming ability.
When a shark eats a fish such as a 100lb grouper, it is getting maybe 12lbs of pure fish oil. That's an awful lot of oil but sharks need a lot of oil and they get it with every meal as sharks do not eat only shrimp tails and squid tentacles. we do. So fish evolved eating about 10% of their meal as fish oil but do we feed that? No, we don't. Why? A few reasons. It stinks. It goes bad in the presence of oxygen. It is hard to come by in normal fish food that we can buy. It is not in dry foods for the reasons I mentioned and it doesn't dry well. Heating destroys is. But it is in whole fish which we can almost never find in fish small enough to get to our fish. I use whole clams or any shellfish because when you feed a shellfish, you feed the entire thing along with the guts and the oil in their liver (which is not the same as fish oil but still oil and probably as good) Mysis is good as they have guts, but Mysis are mostly shell and that shell is not calcium so it is just wasted bulk and supplies no nutrition. For me the best all around food we can get besides tiny, whole fish that we can't get is live blackworms. They have the guts, the oil in their liver (I think they have a liver but I am not the God of worms so I can't be sure) and the living bacteria in their gut that I am always espousing as a source of immunity. So in conclusion, I feed what I feel is the best foods, clams, live worms and a little Mysis. For my small fish I feed new born, live brine shrimp as they have a yolk sac that is an excellent food. Not getting enough oil is the biggest reason most fish in captivity don't spawn as a fish spawn is almost all oil and could be a third of the weight of the fish. It could also be the reason baby sharks die.
See these fish fry? They are all over the place and the normal diet of most reef fish, not flakes, angle formula 22, pellets, or shrimp tails.

Clams.

If you have oysters, send them to me to eat, let the fish eat cake.

See this watchman (or watchgirl) gobi with her eggs? Those eggs are almost all oil which she gets in her diet because she is in my tank.

See these baby octopus that hatched out in my tank? These would make excellent food, but they were just to cute to feed.

Hi Paul,

Very interesting read. I have tried both quarantine and without quarantine but i still ended up having ich in both occasions. Now i have started my third round of fish this time i went back to no quarantine. They are all small fish like ventralis anthias , decora firefish and possum wrasse i think they are too small fish to eat clam. What live food should i try with them? Can i buy fresh fish take the liver out and blend it with something to make food for them?

Paul B · Jan 2, 2016

Mightyfish, Small fish just need smaller pieces of clam. Here is a video of my possum wrasse which I have had for a few years. He eats clam, Mysis and his favorite, live worms. Just freeze large clams and shave off paper thin slices. You can make them as small as you like. I would not blend up a fish liver unless you are planning to use it right then as that is very messy and stinks. I think it would be great if you want to go through that but it is a pain I would think. You can sometimes buy tiny salt water spearing but where you live, I am not sure what you can get. I did my first dive in Sydney Australia as I was there in 1970 on R&R from Viet Nam. I stayed in Kings Cross. Loved the place and the diving. The Opera house was under construction then.