Two Methodoligies to keep a reef tank

Paul B

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There are actually two very different methodiologies to run a reef tank. I am not talking about dosers, controllers, bio pellets, etc. I am talking about either qurantining everything or not quarantining anything but keeping everything immune. There are advantages and dis-advantages of each method.

I will start with the benefits of quarantining. Of course the theory here is to keep disease organisms out of our tanks by keeping the fish, corals and every thing else we put in our tanks seperate from the rest of the livestock for a long enough period where we think parasites would live out their life cycle. At the end of the parasite's life cycle, if we don't see any new parasites, we assume there are none and the fish can be acclimated to our tank. In a quarantine tank we will also examine the occupants to see if we notice any disease organisms or problems so we can then medicate for that particular problem. Some people medicate the quarantine tank for parasites and bacterial infections just to make sure the creature is healthy before exposing it to the existing livestock. ( I used to do that years ago) Many people believe that a new fish is stressed and life in a quarantine tank would be better because that fish can be hand fed and kept away from possable bullies. The fish can be fattened up without having to contend with faster fish that were in the tank longer and would steal all of the food. That, as we all know is the theory of quarantining.



Now for the disadvantages of a quarantined tank. Virtually all quarantine tanks are much smaller and less decorated than a real reef. The hiding places will be something like PVC elbows, glass, flowerpots or pictures of your girlfriend. The circulation will be much different than the fish is acustomed to as will be the lighting. We will "dote" on the fish more and no matter how good looking we think we are, the fish do not like looking at us all the time with no where but a PVC fitting to hide in. The fish will have no place to forage or feel secure. They will also have to stay in this small tank for a long period of time, usually 72 days. Almost all fish like to look for food continousely, even if they just ate. But if kept in a smaller, bare tank for an extended period, they stop looking for food as they know there isn't any. They will develop a blank look on their face from boredom. OK, stop laughing. If you don't believe me, lock yourself in your bathroom for 72 days with just some PVC elbows to look at. Then look in the mirror and see what you look like.

The main disadvantage of quarantined fish, is they lose some or all of their immunity from everything. Immunity only lasts so long if the fish is not exposed to a disease organism. This immunity varies with the species. This may not be much of a disadvantage in a tank where everything is quarantined because the fish should never be exposed to a disease organism in such a tank. But the fish will "never" be as healthy as it could be because a fishes immune system helps the fish stay healthy even if it is not exposed to a pathogen. Also when a fish spawns, the female fish passes that immunity to it's fry to keep it safe until it grows it's own slime with it's associated immunity just as our babies also pick up immunity from their Mothers which protects them until they are exposed to pathogens and can develop their own immunity. Also fish, like us depend on bacteria in their guts to digest food. It has been shown recently that fish (and us) depend on that gut bacteria for general health. A quarantined fish will only have the bacteris in it's gut from it's food. And in a quarantine tank, that food will be sterile because we would not want to feed live food to a fish in quarantine for fear we would add pathogens. Of course the biggest concern is accidently introducing a disease organism into a tank of fish with no immunity. You can easily find a plethora of tanks that crashed to disease even though they have been quarantined.



Now I will discuss the benefits of "not" quarantining and keeping the fish immune from disease. At first this seems silly and as so many people point out this is like playing Russian Roulette. I have never been to Russia so I can't comment on that. But the benefits of having immune fish are many. We can buy a fish, coral or crustacean and after a short acclimation, put it right in our tank. We can also collect natural sea water or creatures from the sea that we may want to use as food such as amphipods, worms, snails etc. If our fish are truely immune, we will never have any use for medications or a hospital tank. These fish will be healthier than quarantined fish (all else being equal) because the fishes immune system does more for a fish than our immune system does for us. An immune fish will never get sick. It may get a swim bladder disease, popeye or have an accident, but it will never become infected from bacteria or parasites. If it does, it was not truely immune, now was it?



Trying to get and keep fish immune also has disadvantages. First off all the fish we buy are stressed and maybe all of them have some sort of malady, either in the form of parasites or bacteria. Even if the rest of our fish are immune, the new one is not and may succumb to disease after it is introduced to the tank. The new fish may be weak and scared so it may not find enough food. If the fish we buy was at the dealer's for a long time it was probably swimming in water treated with copper or antibiotics as many dealers have to use such measures to keep fish healthy "looking" until they are sold. Those fish will all have a very weak immune system and if our tank was not quarantined there will be parasites, viruses and bacteria sitting there just waiting for such a fish. So the introduction phase of a non quarantined fish has it's dangers and we may lose some fish. I have not found this to happen but I can't explain why. I can, and do add fish from all different places including the sea and never in over 35 years have any of them ever had a disease. But to keep fish in this condition they should be fed either fresh or live food such as clams, fish or the best thing live blackworms. Frozen foods would be the second choice but dry foods shoulsd be used very rarely or not at all. It is not that dry foods are bad or they don't have the proper nutrients. It is that they are sterile and will not allow the immune system to recognize a threat and make antibodies against it. Much of a fishes immune system is in it's slime and the correct foods "with" it's associated bacteria are necessary to get and keep a fish immune.



Of course if you don't believe in immunity, (or Bigfoot) you just wasted ten minutes reading this. And should stop calling me names. I also think that newbees to this hobby should "always" quarantine until such time where you can recognize subtle problems with fish. This can take a number of years and is not an overnight thing. As I said quarantining has advantages and is easier to do for a newcomer to the hobby. Many tanks of fish have been lost to disease and fish with a weak immune system will sicken and die within a day or two. It is not easy to tell if your fish are immune and only experience will tell you that. But if you started the hobby one or two years ago, feed your fish mostly dry food like flakes or pellets and your fish are not spawning I can quarantee they are not immune and you should be careful and quarantine everything.

Now I know the majority of people do not agree with me. I did not write this to be agreeable. I wrote it from the experience of doing this for six decades. I could be wrong and would like to hear your thoughts and opinions. You can even call me names because I am old and probably wouldn't understand those names. Also my birthday is on Christmas Day so I am in a good mood and no amount of name calling will change that.
 

CastAway

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Happy birthday, and Merry Christmas Paul!

Excellent read. Have not used a quarantine process myself yet, and love to feed fresh clams and shrimp.
 

melypr1985

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Happy Birthday and Merry Christmas Paul!
 

tj w

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Great read Paul, i wonder if sometimes a lot of us over think this hobby too much. Have a great birthday and merry christmas! I wont call u any names[emoji2]
 

saltyfilmfolks

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Got really quiet in here didn't it? That's usually what happens when people speak truths they cant refute.

Thanks again for your wisdom and experience. And helping me finally figure out why my Coris wrasse probably died.

Merry Christmas to you and yours. And a very Happy Birthday.
 

AlexG

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Personally I have never run a quarantine tank at home. With my new system I was planning to add a separate quarantine system as there are going to be a lot of fish. I do find that a healthy system can mean a lot as fish that are not stressed are in better shape to fight of disease. I am still thinking that I will be adding a quarantine system but I am not sure if I am going to blast every fish with medications. I do think you had a well balanced write up on the topic Paul B.
 
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Paul B

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cb684

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So, I will have to complete disagree. This is a oversimplification of immunity, and it does not work like that. There is not only immune fish and fish without immunity, there is a lot of in-between within a given species and differences between species. That may work "a little" for Ich but for sure that is not the rule. Players in the immunebalance that will define if a fish will get sick or not include the infectious agent dose (how many of one given pathogen you are introducing in your tank) , if the host has a higher or a lower sensitivity to the pathogen (species specific sensitivity), morbidity rate of the pathogen for each given species (percentage of animals will get sick), and the mortality (how many animals that will die due to the infection). There is also the general health status of the animals that will affect not only the adaptive response (ability of responding more specifically to a pathogen that was learned by the imune system) and innate response (response that will be somewhat similar for different pathogens).
The time that will take to an animal to loose the adaptive immunity will depend on the pathogen, and how the animal was "immunized" to begin with (and likely on the species). The innate response will not be lost, unless the animal is in very poor health state. Presence of high titters of antibodies in the blood after contact with some pathogens may last for more than one year, memory cells to produce antibodies fast may be present for many years (in humans and mammals, not sure about fishes but the immune system has many similarities and some differences, at least in some of the species that there is research done )
So the goal of a quarantine is not only clear pathogens (among the other goals that you cited), but is also to minimize the infectious agent dose that you introduce in your tank. And there is no reason to believe that after quarantine the animal will loose its immunity against any of the pathogens it had adaptive immunity to begin with.
Hope it helps to clear a little things up...
 
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Cb684, thank you for responding. I agree with most of what you said as I have researched this extensively before I wrote what I linked above. As I said, I can only go by my experiences and my fish have been totally immune from everything for at least 35 years. Some of my fish are in their 20s and all of my paired fish are spawning. I can, and do put fish in my tank with obvious ick and velvet infections. I have put copperband butterflies in my tank even though the rest of them just died in the store. I recently added 3 shrimpfish and one died the next day covered in parasites, I just left him in there for the crabs. I collect NSW along with mud and amphipods weekly in the summer and dump all of that in my tank. I have been called lucky but I doubt that is it. The reason I decided to delve into immunity was to try to figure out why my fish just don't get sick. Never. So far no one can answer that for me. I think it is due to the live foods or more exactly, the bacteria with possible parasites I feed every day. I do not know how long immunity lasts and I am sure it varies due to species. But if you search on any forum as you know you will find countless examples of tanks that were lost due to disease even though they were quarantined. As I said, quarantining is one way to go. But getting your fish immune through pathogen exposure and live, bacteria and parasite laden foods seems to keep them safe. I can't explain what else is keeping my fish healthy. I have my tank going continousely since 1971 and it has never crashed for the last 35 years or so through disease or anything else. Do you have a theory on that? I am at a loss.
 

cb684

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Paul B, first congratulations! Something you are doing right... Adequate nutrition and system stability are important part of fish immunology, and I am pretty sure you got that in your tank.
I am a little cautious believing that it is due to immunization, since there are many factors that would need to fall in place for that to work. You would need get the right infectious agents dose, right interval of challenge, and even then depending on the virulence of the agents some animals would get sick and even die. That would be different for each pathogen, and likely there would be differences between how different fish species respond.
I also, do not believe you would be causing any negative impact on the health of your system if you were to start quarantining fish before adding them.
I know very little about your system, and your animal husbandry to try to come up with a sound theory about why you have a healthy system. But, I could come up with easy explanations on how some people quarantine and still introduce diseases in their tanks.
What worries me is that other people might think it is a good idea to stop quarantining their livestock, or stop buying from stores that do quarantine before selling their fishes, based only on one system that apparently is impervious to pathogens. I would not do that before there is a clear understanding on why your system behaves as it does.
 

saltyfilmfolks

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People who live on farms have less allergies.
Agreed we need a better methodology for quarantine, or a better understanding for the laymen and LFS.
 

saltyfilmfolks

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Paul B, first congratulations! Something you are doing right... Adequate nutrition and system stability are important part of fish immunology, and I am pretty sure you got that in your tank.
I am a little cautious believing that it is due to immunization, since there are many factors that would need to fall in place for that to work. You would need get the right infectious agents dose, right interval of challenge, and even then depending on the virulence of the agents some animals would get sick and even die. That would be different for each pathogen, and likely there would be differences between how different fish species respond.
I also, do not believe you would be causing any negative impact on the health of your system if you were to start quarantining fish before adding them.
I know very little about your system, and your animal husbandry to try to come up with a sound theory about why you have a healthy system. But, I could come up with easy explanations on how some people quarantine and still introduce diseases in their tanks.
What worries me is that other people might think it is a good idea to stop quarantining their livestock, or stop buying from stores that do quarantine before selling their fishes, based only on one system that apparently is impervious to pathogens. I would not do that before there is a clear understanding on why your system behaves as it does.
http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/tank-birthday-40-years-162151.html
 

cb684

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People who live on farms have less allergies.
The problem with this, is that one needs to get infected with other pathogens to get less allergies or immune-mediated diseases.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841828/pdf/cei0160-0001.pdf

A 40 years old tank is amazing! But is not the average 1 or 2 year-old tank (2 in 1,000,000?!?!) that we see most frequently here. I am not saying he is not on to something, I am just saying that I would be careful to apply that to others.
 

saltyfilmfolks

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The problem with this, is that one needs to get infected with other pathogens to get less allergies or immune-mediated diseases.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841828/pdf/cei0160-0001.pdf

A 40 years old tank is amazing! But is not the average 1 or 2 year-old tank (2 in 1,000,000?!?!) that we see most frequently here. I am not saying he is not on to something, I am just saying that I would be careful to apply that to others.
Absoloutly aree. On the tank. We have a lot to learn. we also dont pay as much attention to success's as opposed to failures. (headlines)
People who dont "properly" quarantine are shamed. When I read up DEEP on proper dipping methods for parasitic hitchikers early on, Advanced Aquarist said by their testing PH balanced fresh water dip yeilded the best result.
And I have to disagree on the immunology. Its still sooo hotly debated and under huge research. Consider the difference between exposed and infected. Low level exposure is infected. kinda.
My daughter has allergies and we've been dealing with it for 13 years. And my gut was wiped out due to anitbiotics. still jacked and researching.
And Ive lost totally healthy fish "properly" quarantined and medicated. None of them mandarins. (medication)
Id love the heavyweights on the forum to chime in. Or an immunologist. :)

I think the point Paul has is less the never quarantine but a moderate lets look at the current practice and talk about it. LFS are stores that have to protect the investment in money and time in equipment so the copper wall is the easiest solution. If an easier solution is available and more common knowledge and becomes more popular. we should use it. But I imagine the thing is, It doesnt come in a bottle. and free dont make money.
You need this because something bad will happen is a very very old trick.

This kept me up last night.
 
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Paul B

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cb684, thank you for that link, but that is about warm blooded humans and not fish whose immune system is vastly different. A fishes immunity comes mostly from their kidneys and are affected directly by the bacteria in their gut. Much of a fishes immune system is in their slime which has antibodies against parasites and bacteria. Their immune defenses are better than ours for a couple of reasons, fish are older than us so had a longer time to evolve and fish live in water where it is much easier to become infected because pathogens swim better than they fly. The seawater a fish swims in is actually an extension of it's circulatory system as it is in constant close proximity to it through the gills and mouth.
Here is part of one of the links in my previous post:

(ISRN ImmunologyVolume 2012 (2012), Article ID 853470, 29 pageshttp://dx.doi.org/10.5402/2012/853470Review ArticleAn Overview of the Immunological Defenses in Fish SkinMaría Ángeles Esteban)
Quote: Immunity associated with the parasites depends on the inhabiting discrete sites in the host. Especially important for this paper are the ectoparasites, those habiting in or on the skin. Until recently there had been little direct evidence of innate immune mechanisms against parasites associated with mucosal epithelium [285]. The active immunological role of skin against parasitic infection has been shown recently [286288], and now mucosal immunity against them start to be elucidated.
Non-parasitic fishes usually die following infection, but animals surviving sublethal parasite exposure become resistant to subsequent challenge. This resistance correlates with the presence of humoral antibodies in the sera and cutaneous mucus of immune fishes.
According to these authors "probiotic for aquaculture is a live, dead or component of a microbial cell that, when administered via the feed or to the rearing water, benefits the host by improving either disease resistance, health status, growth performance, feed utilisation, stress response or general vigour, which is achieved at least in part via improving the hosts or the environmental microbial balance."The first demonstration that probiotics can protect fishes against surface infections was against Aeromonas bestiarum and Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in rainbow trout [330]. The research on this topic is considered of high priority at present because enriched diets could be used as preventive or curative therapies for farmed fishes. End Quote
Another interesting fact found in a recent issue of Scientific American By Ferris Jabr | September 12, 2012 |
States that zebra fish whose guts were rich in bacteria absorbed more fats from their food as compared to fish in a germ free envirnment which in turn increased the number of energy-rich fat bubbles stored within the fish's intestinal cells for later use.

I also wrote this about fish slime:
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/

Remember, I am not saying to anyone to stop quarantining. I did mention that a few times. I just want people to think about this. I feel we should try to learn how to keep fish healthy rather than spend so much time trying to cure them. If my fish don't get sick, no one's fish should get sick. A few years ago I asked if anybody wanted to get and put a parasite infected fish into my reef as a test. No one came forward, but that is how certain I am that my fish are immune. I don't know why and I wish I did but if we could figure out the exact mechanism, how great would that be for this hobby?

These fireclowns are in their 20s and are still spawning as all my paired fish. None of them were ever quarantined but they do get live food and clams every day.
 
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cb684

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@Paul B thank you for this discussion! It is always good to challenge what I think I know and understand!

First of, my link was in response to the statement I quoted, not implying that mechanism is also present on fishes (I really don't know if it is. It actually made me wonder how frequently we see immune-mediated diseases in fishes without knowing... This year I lost a 6 year old koi, about 2.5 feet, with ovary cancer. She was beautiful...). Unfortunately in this forum, there is no way to know the others' background, so that paper had the epidemiological data and immunological data that could explain that statement.

If the thread goal was not to get people to stop quarantining but to get people thinking about fish immunology that is great, and I completely agree with that!

The article you shared ( http://www.hindawi.com/journals/isrn/2012/853470/ ) is great! Thank you for sharing! I am not sure why it was shared as "in contrary" of what I said, as most of my statements are based on knowledge present on that article. The immunology of fish is remarkably similar (giving the evolutionary distance) to mammals. Most of the molecules and slime use of physical barriers are also part of mammals mucosa innate immunity. The regulation and antibody production, as well as, other cell mediated adaptive immunity is also very similar.

The statements on sublethal exposure to Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in the article is exactly what I said here:
That may work "a little" for Ich but for sure that is not the rule.
And also what I meant when talking about infectious agent dose.

Now, probiotics may help to avoid some of the diseases, and it is mostly based on improving innate immunity. What we do not know in this case is how much it protects against each of the diseases we commonly see. Also, it makes more sense to feed a known probiotic instead feeding blindly, hoping that will work as probiotic.

And thank you for sharing the video. Twenty years old clowns is just awesome!
 

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Thanks for the read Paul B and chiming in cb684. For what it is worth I have been in the hobby since 1999 and have had 3 tanks. The first not so successful, second very successful for 10 years where I never quarantined fish and lost only a handful, to my new tank which so far is a bit of a struggle but coming along.
On this point with my new tank I decided to quarantine. I got a 30g and started quarantining using the protocol I found here at R2R and asking some of the more experienced on here. To this point I have lost vastly more fish in quarantine than I ever lost before quarantine. I used prazipro 3 doses over the first 12 days then only treated with copper if a fish was visibly infected. I have used copper once. I have only had 10 fish make it out of quarantine alive and have lost 10. It may be something I am doing wrong. I do water changes every other day of 10-15g, use an ammonia badge. I am at a loss. I have recently added 4 fish ( angels and wrasses) to the display without quarantine and all 4 have lived. No disease noted on them or the original inhabitants. Was I just lucky with these 4?
Now I know there are many variables involved but it begs the question why? I do feed live black worms ( thank you Paul) every day and only LRS and ova other than that. I fed the same to the fish in QT. The 2 recent losses that sent me over the edge and decided to skip QT were a Bellus angel and a Male swallowtail angel. Both eating like pigs, fat and apparently healthy. 2 weeks into QT great one day dead on the bottom the next morning, no signs of any infection. This was 2 separate QT instances. Water parameters both times were normal, no ammonia detected.
So now I debate with myself over QT after my no QT experiment has so far had better results than Qt'ing my fish. That said do I really want to risk my fish and the money invested to potential disease?
I am in the medical field and understand the immune response and building immunity and I believe that diet has a dramatic affect on all living things health. Could Paul's success be in part that he adds creatures, mud and water from the ocean, the fishes natural environment to assist in boosting their immune system? I am curious.
I am not taking sides I am just putting forth my findings from my experiences of my tanks.
 

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I was just saying that in another thread. I do not quarantine. In my current situation I do not believe I can do a good job. I don't have a good stable system ready for that, I do not want to play with copper close to my reef, and so on...
What I have been doing is buying from Divers Den (that go through a very strict quarantine protocol). And I do not mean LiveAquaria, I mean only from their Divers Den selection. It is amazing how all the fishes I buy, that were not quarantined die. With that said, I did not loose one fish that I bought from Divers Den.
 

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