Unethical, Wrong or Ok?

[jasonrusso]

Look at the tips of the torch. They tell you the light it is under.

https://www.tidalgardens.com/golden-torch-2.html

 

[ADAM]

Don't blame yourself for not asking. I recently made a purchase from a pretty well known smaller coral provider who had been recommended to me as being very "ethical". They had two types of coral on their site, one white, one green. I'd been recently burned on a purchase from another large scale seller (who did make it right though) so I made it a POINT to ask them specifically if the corals were that color because of the light. I was told, "they don't look that color the ARE that color."
Guess what, when they arrived they were no where NEAR that color. One was pink the other purple with a frosted white texture to the trunk, but obviously not a white coral. And when I messaged them and asked I was told I needed to have the right lighting cause my white light (20K t-5) turns corals brown so if I wanted color I had to have blues. I'm sorry, I've been in this too long for that level of crap. So I put them under blue just to see (I also have kessils) and guess what, still no green or white. I said something and was then told I had to have a specific BRAND of light set at the presets for LPS coral (and this wasn't an LPS).
So no. Even when you ask, way too many vendors will lie and then use the light excuse.
While others may not agree with with what I'm about to say, I will stand by it; if it takes UV lighting to make a coral a particular color, then its not that color. It fluoresces that color, but it isn't white, green, blue, yellow, unless those colors show under 20K lighting or something close too it.

And yes, I am fully aware that corals grown under blue light will develop morphology. But again, these are not conditions in a well lighted tank and the sellers KNOW once that coral is moved into different conditions those colors will fade, because guess what, they aren't normal and they aren't natural. And that needs to be divulged as well rather than letting people believe otherwise.
If the fluorescing color (or artificially manufactured color) is fine by the buyer, great, but *** don't lie to them. Just say it, "X coral will only show these colors when fluorescing under X lighting and house in these conditions." And if it's under X at a specific setting, include that info. Then show a picture under white 20K light just so there is no misunderstanding. Trust me, that one 150.00-350.00 sale isn't worth losing a possible life time client who will spend thousands with you over the years.
And for those itching to say "white light pictures will hurt sales" or "People need to do their own research instead of expecting to be told" then you're the a part of the problem.
Honesty is a requirement of good business.
One day, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next week, one of these vendors will screw over the wrong person who has the resources to take them to court for false/misleading advertisement and devastate them with court costs, bad press, and the vender could then face state and federal charges for false and misleading advertisement on top of that that chocolate dipped, rocky road disaster.
And yeah, go ahead and chuckle... But if a clothing company can wind up with millions in fines over a 1 cent button don't think for a moment any dishonest seller is untouchable.
Eventually it will happen, then EVERYONE even the honest sellers, will be stuck facing the backlash, which is completely unfair to the honest sellers.

Ditto! So tired of people saying that X or Y have such amazing corals and I only purchase from them, but I know the coral won’t look as good in my tank until I get better lights or learn how to dose trace elements better! Half are running Ecotech, AI, or ATI T5 already and have near perfect water chemistry!!! It couldn’t possibly be that the photos are more “juiced up” than the WWE staff....
The name game is horrible too, one vendor really jumps to mind as of late. They obviously juice the photo to the point where you know it’s juiced and they don’t really argue that. However they will give it some fancy shmancey name to go with that photo and charge a remarkably high price (exponentially higher than most that do this already also) I noticed a pretty basic trachy brain coral, green center with reddish outer rim....$50-100 at nearly all vendors and LFS, and to my astonishment since the name was fancy and they had NASA engineers come up with the lighting combo to make it glow a little more....they wanted $350, it sold too! It doesn’t bother too much until I imagine a proverbial newbie buying it, sorta like this thread, and end up with a run of the mill coral and blame it on their lighting or water chemistry!
The biggest problem I have is that misleading photos and names cause people to blame themselves unfairly. It’s kind of a perverted business model. If I sold you an Ultra Quiet and Super Efficient Air Conditioner and then installed a hunk of junk that drank electricity and sounded like a fighter jet I don’t think any of you, vendors included, would settle for the excuse that you have to wear ear muffs and only run the AC 30 minutes a day for the system to be ultra efficient and quiet!!!

 

[jasonrusso]

Ditto! So tired of people saying that X or Y have such amazing corals and I only purchase from them, but I know the coral won’t look as good in my tank until I get better lights or learn how to dose trace elements better! Half are running Ecotech, AI, or ATI T5 already and have near perfect water chemistry!!! It couldn’t possibly be that the photos are more “juiced up” than the WWE staff....
The name game is horrible too, one vendor really jumps to mind as of late. They obviously juice the photo to the point where you know it’s juiced and they don’t really argue that. However they will give it some fancy shmancey name to go with that photo and charge a remarkably high price (exponentially higher than most that do this already also) I noticed a pretty basic trachy brain coral, green center with reddish outer rim....$50-100 at nearly all vendors and LFS, and to my astonishment since the name was fancy and they had NASA engineers come up with the lighting combo to make it glow a little more....they wanted $350, it sold too! It doesn’t bother too much until I imagine a proverbial newbie buying it, sorta like this thread, and end up with a run of the mill coral and blame it on their lighting or water chemistry!
The biggest problem I have is that misleading photos and names cause people to blame themselves unfairly. It’s kind of a perverted business model. If I sold you an Ultra Quiet and Super Efficient Air Conditioner and then installed a hunk of junk that drank electricity and sounded like a fighter jet I don’t think any of you, vendors included, would settle for the excuse that you have to wear ear muffs and only run the AC 30 minutes a day for the system to be ultra efficient and quiet!!!

Don't get me started on the names. You put a JF in front of a fancy name and the price goes up 300%

 

[User]

While I think it is wrong/unethical, it’s your responsibility to know what you’re buying.

How can he be sure when buying online and can’t put eyes on it?

 

[jasonrusso]

Buy Steve's LED! This is my son's tank. Totally customizable color!!

I have the Steve's LEDs on my RSM C-130. It took me over a year to tweak the lighting. It's all good now!! The whites are VERY powerful and I was burning corals.

 

[Jfarooqpak]

LOVE IT

 

[jlts21]

How can he be sure when buying online and can’t put eyes on it?

By asking the questions that everybody has already stated??? Ask the vendor about how much blue is in the picture, ask for a white light picture, etc.) compare pictures of the same coral using a google search or live aquaria.

 

[Katrina71]

I have the Steve's LEDs on my RSM C-130. It took me over a year to tweak the lighting. It's all good now!! The whites are VERY powerful and I was burning corals.

Agreed. My son still doesn't use the intensity recommend on the site. His tank is happy with how he runs them though.

 

[User]

By asking the questions that everybody has already stated??? Ask the vendor about how much blue is in the picture, ask for a white light picture, etc.) compare pictures of the same coral using a google search or live aquaria.

Yeah, because vendors won’t bend the truth for a sale, and google ImageSearch can’t be shopped?

Dudes new. How was he supposed to know that there are no natural blue tip torches? I didn’t know that and I’ve been looking at torches for 2 years. Are we suppose to assume EVERYTHING that is blue is actually white but tinted due to lights? No, of course not.

How about we don’t accept the practice of pics with only blues? Stop buying from stores that only supply blue light pics?

 

[sghera64]

Your question goes to "intent". If the seller is truly ignorant of the proper name and simply gives it a generic descriptive name as it appears to them, with no intent to deceive, than I believe it would not be considered unethical. It is simply "unskilled".

If they know better and simply name it something to increase appeal and know that it likely misrepresents the true nature of the item, then that is unethical.

[How often do we see this sort of practice in health related claims for supplements and foods? It is becoming so normal that we must not use social norms as the basis of our ethos. But I know it is difficult to prove 'intent' - - hence why so many plaintiff lawyers are resistant to prosecute a case based on intent.]

 

[Marie7]

I am a newbie (Comparatively speaking), bought a coral with “blue tip” in its name. Gorgeous piece in the pictures. Turns out the tips are white and look blue in blue light. So the question is “Is this unethical, wrong or ok practice by the seller”. When I reached out to them they just confirmed the whole light thing.
is this ethical, wrong or ok?
should I have known to ask if the blue is due to light or if it is actually blue?Great learning experience.

He shouldn't never sold u a coral that it is not such things as blue tip, but should of told u right there without u ask him about light or what he is referring as blue tip, it is unethical, wrong and a biggest dishonesty from his side, I will of ask for my money back specially if u pay a lot for a misleading “blue tip” cuote

 

[Lowell Lemon]

So I see a potential problem with the seller and the buyer.

Not only do you have to learn to frag, grow, sell, and account for your overhead cost you must be an expert at photography and know everything there is to know about color, saturation, value, hue, and a thousand other variables. I honestly don't believe most sellers think they will get rich on the onetime sale. They depend on developing a stable costumer list and strive for satisfied customers. That said most sellers want you to be a return customer so that is to the buyers advantage. Buying online is a risk no matter how you cut it. Supporting the local fish store is a better alternative due to the ability to inspect before you buy. Also a little snorkeling in some of the regions that provide the live corals will help you all understand natural light and natural color. I have never seen a living reef look like a black light poster so you should catch a clue from that reality.

Blue lighting is necessary to help grow and maintain corals in captivity. In natural sunlight the blue is just washed out until you get to certain water depths. Then all the corals look blue, brown, gray, and green until you get up close and see some natural variations.

The only way to stop the debate is to stop using made up names and use the scientific name, identify the light source for the photo and do your best to show natural coloration. Since the use of Actinic 03 lamps way back in the beginning that may not happen. Some people will prefer the blue lamp due to the pop of phosphorescent colors induced by near UV spectrums.

I need to rethink my retirement plans and sell used cars...welcome to "Lemon's lot of used Lemons". At least that is honesty in advertising but I don't think anything will sell? What do you think?

 

[sfin52]

I would completely expect the color difference in your coral, when considering the marked difference in your lighting and the seller's. When I look closely, it appears the tips of your torch are light blue, so it does seem that there is some blue in there.

In my opinion, the seller has done nothing wrong, and neither have you. A good lesson for purchasing online, and the need for understanding your lighting better, definitely stands out to me. Moving forward, make sure you ask about the specific lighting setup - both for the photograph, and for normal photoperiod. This will help give you a better idea of what you are buying, and can help you plan better with regards to light acclimation, and long-term care.

If you are unhappy with the purchase, I would let the seller know, but I certainly wouldn't do it under the pretense of false advertising, or that the seller did anything wrong at all.

I did as well. There is a faint blue in the tips. If there wasn't some blue it wouldn't glow blue under antic lights.

 

[Gp!]

I am a newbie (Comparatively speaking), bought a coral with “blue tip” in its name. Gorgeous piece in the pictures. Turns out the tips are white and look blue in blue light. So the question is “Is this unethical, wrong or ok practice by the seller”. When I reached out to them they just confirmed the whole light thing.
is this ethical, wrong or ok?
should I have known to ask if the blue is due to light or if it is actually blue?Great learning experience.

I don't particularly think it is ethical or right, but it is difficult to say it is "wrong". It's commonplace with our society and acceptance of advertising claims. Think... Smart water or Coke zero. You're picking a much larger battle than the aquarium industry if you intend to quash this behavior.

I can think of lots of examples... Here is one: I was in home Depot the other day. I assume you have one near you, if not it is a national retail chain that sells home improvement and maintenance supplies. Anyways, I looked at their mowers waiting to be done shopping and noticed their zero turn mowers advertised fully welded seams on the mower decks. And upon further inspection these factory applied stickers were placed on mowers designed to cut costs with chain welded (not fully welded) seams.

You can see similar occurrences walking through any big box store that sells anything you are knowledgeable enough to perform a cursory inspection.