Unique Frag Tank Plumbing

[Charlie the Reefer]

Hey everyone,

I have a 125G SCA tank (60" x 24" x 20.5") (for details see build thread) with 40G sump. I have been mulling over the design for an additional frag tank for the last 6 months or so. I would appreciate some thoughts or suggestions on my ideas. Honestly, the main goal of the frag tank is another display that offers top-down views (versus my main display which is def designed to look thru the glass). I'm thinking dimensions somewhere along the lines of 48" x 24" x 14-16".

On my display, I'm running reef moonshiners, and doing an ICP approx every 3 weeks. I also test big three 4 times each day via trident, and nitrates/phosphates about every other day via hanna checker. Basically, I'm very closely managing the chemistry.

Thus, I am dead set on somehow engineering the system so that I only need to manage one chemistry. But here's the issue... For a few different reasons, I'm opposed to the idea of actually plumbing the two systems together. First, with the way my system is currently plumbed, I think the best solution would be draining the main tank to the frag, then drain frag to sump. The issue is in my "sump room" (which is the utility room), the plumbing for this would just be really hard to fit in (limited space). In addition, the idea of completely re plumbing my three drain bean animal setup seems daunting, and frankly risky. Finally, having an entirely different junction, with piping to the frag tank, in my opinion just offers more opportunities for failures / leaks. It just scares me.

Thus.... I devised a potential "in-between" solution that I think simply marries the above concepts - I'd like to hear yalls thoughts on it. What if every day I used a neptune DOS pump to "swap" 4 gallons of water between each the frag tank and display tank. That would essentially marry the chemistry of each system, while not having to worry about actually plumbing them. The frag tank would be approx 75-90 gallons, so 4g / day would be 30-40% each week.

The only issue I foresee is eventually the pumps wear out / get out of synch, i.e. not exactly 4 gallons on each. Could cause potential issues with salinity, so maybe I'd get a salinity probe (but I hear these suck) for the frag tank.

What are your guys thoughts on this? Thanks in advance.

 

[blaxsun]

Yes, using a Neptune DOS is a great idea as they're very accurate (after calibration), extremely reliable, can have very lengthy tubing runs and you can program it to run every hour or just during a set timeframe. I don't think you'd have to worry about replacing the heads more than once every year or so. You will also need an Apex controller, though.

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

Yes, using a Neptune DOS is a great idea as they're very accurate (after calibration), extremely reliable, can have very lengthy tubing runs and you can program it to run every hour or just during a set timeframe. I don't think you'd have to worry about replacing the heads more than once every year or so. You will also need an Apex controller, though.

Thanks very much for your response - much appreciated! I'm going to try and roll with this setup.

 

[ReefEco]

Hey Charlie - It looks like you are looking for confirmation of your proposed idea - but this is potentially a very challenging setup. My main concern would be that the ALK/CAL uptake in either tank could be very different, depending on coral load. While your monthly volume sounds good (30-40%), even just a 10% difference in uptake between the two tanks can mean the levels could drift in your frag tank over even just a week. Over just a month, since you aren't changing 100% of the water volume, there is no way to ensure the uptake will match if your frag tank is uptaking more. (less of a concern if the frag tank is uptaking less) If not, you might set this up and see it work for a while when your frag tank coral load is low, but down the road I could see the swings being significant if your frag tank is stock full of SPS frags. Separate from the uptake concern, and the reliability from the Dose, evaporation rates will also likely differ between the tanks - potentially causing the same issues - will you have a separate ATO system on the frag tank? You'll have to heat the frag tank separately too. I have some frag tanks plumbed into my sump system, and just added an additional pump from the common sump to the frag system, and return to the same sump. This way you need an extra pump, but no need to re-plumb your display. Common heating, ATO system. And, by doing this your two tanks can run independently of each other, which is very useful for maintenance.

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

Hey Charlie - It looks like you are looking for confirmation of your proposed idea - but this is potentially a very challenging setup. My main concern would be that the ALK/CAL uptake in either tank could be very different, depending on coral load. While your monthly volume sounds good (30-40%), even just a 10% difference in uptake between the two tanks can mean the levels could drift in your frag tank over even just a week. Over just a month, since you aren't changing 100% of the water volume, there is no way to ensure the uptake will match if your frag tank is uptaking more. (less of a concern if the frag tank is uptaking less) If not, you might set this up and see it work for a while when your frag tank coral load is low, but down the road I could see the swings being significant if your frag tank is stock full of SPS frags. Separate from the uptake concern, and the reliability from the Dose, evaporation rates will also likely differ between the tanks - potentially causing the same issues - will you have a separate ATO system on the frag tank? You'll have to heat the frag tank separately too. I have some frag tanks plumbed into my sump system, and just added an additional pump from the common sump to the frag system, and return to the same sump. This way you need an extra pump, but no need to re-plumb your display. Common heating, ATO system. And, by doing this your two tanks can run independently of each other, which is very useful for maintenance.

Actually - I'm looking for pushback on this idea! I really appreciate the thoughtful, detailed response.

Plan is to have only LPS / Euphyllia - but I think your point still stands RE: uptake. Planned equipment on the frag tank (besides the obvious) is: Tunze ATO, Heater/Probe, PH Probe, ORP Probe, potentially a skimmer, and potentially some macroalgae for export.

RE: water change... I mulled things over, and decided I would aim to do 8-10% DAILY water change. I decided I'd aim for a 50G frag tank (24" x 48" x 10"). The neptune DOS could move 1.3g / hr so I'd aim for 3 hrs of full power each day. That would entail an 100% water change at least every two weeks.

What do you think given the above information? It's probably irrational, but the idea of a separate pump / plumbing concerns me. I have a lot of livestock in my main display at this point, and the idea of "semi-isolating" the chemistries, (but not fully isolating) is attractive to me. If crap hits the fan in the main tank, it won't immediately transfer to the frag and vice versa. I also think this plan has less "points of failure" than doing a separate pump/plumbing directly. Really the main thing I need to worry about is the DOS getting clogged / going out of synch, and then monitoring whether the water changes are sufficient to manage the frag tank chemistry.

Thanks again for your thoughts and feedback, it is much appreciated!!

 

[Jason_MrFrags]

why not just plumb the 2nd tank into the main sump. Drop in a pump and just run the drain into sump

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

why not just plumb the 2nd tank into the main sump. Drop in a pump and just run the drain into sump

I feel that with an aquarium, there are a lot of "points of failure". I.e. toxins, general chemistry, heaters, leaks/ATO... I feel like plumbing them directly, if one tank crashes for whatever reason, they will both crash. If you're only changing 8% water each day on the other hand, the chemistry is somewhat married, but you get a tad more insurance. If one tank crashes for whatever reason, there's a palpable chance the other one will still be standing.

Does that make a bit more sense? My supposition may be unfounded....

 

[Jason_MrFrags]

But you also need additional heater/controller and ATO for 2nd tank, in addition to $300 DOS that you need to keep up with to make sure that it is exchanging the correct amount of water.

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

But you also need additional heater/controller and ATO for 2nd tank, in addition to $300 DOS that you need to keep up with to make sure that it is exchanging the correct amount of water.

Correct. To be honest, cost is not such a prohibiting factor. The most important factors for me are the outcomes, especially ease of maintenance, health of the livestock, and "security" / ability of the frag tank to be somewhat of a "backup". I like the idea of, if the DT crashes for whatever reason (lets say a seam gives out or the heater fails), well now I don't necessarily have the chemistry in my frag tank going haywire on the day that happens, and I have backup colonies/a place to chuck surviving livestock in. At the same time, I don't totally need to manage a separate chemistry....

Again, appreciate the dialogues.

 

[ReefEco]

I hear your logic, and it is relatively sound - however I think the devil is in the details. It would seem that your proposal would significantly increase the points of failure - separate ATO, Heater, Skimmer, Dose calibration has to be spot on between two heads, etc. And you are looking at multiple additional points of failure in terms of water chemistry - alk/cal uptake, salinity (which can additionally shift faster if the Dose exchange is not absolutely perfect everytime. If this shifts, your alk/cal will also not be accurate!) - and an entire another set of water tests to do on the frag tank to make sure the system you have set up is working as intended. Whereas just adding another pump and creating a loop from the common sump is just one point of failure - the pump (and I guess the overflow plumbing, but those are pretty bullet proof with a bean animal). I have QT tanks for fish and corals, and when I'm running the QT coral tank I can tell you it is a pain to maintain and test a whole other aquarium. But that might just be me, LOL. If the tanks not succumbing to each other's crashes is your goal - any toxin, parasite, or bacteria will transfer between, so you can't count on isolating that - so I guess you have to make a choice about whether your proposed system is more stable and can be a hedge against chemistry swings, or is the system you propose going to precipitate more chemistry swings than a single body of water. I'm guessing the latter. I have a 900g system and try to simplify wherever I can, due to sheer task loading. But, everyone is different with different goals and tolerances for husbandry and maintenance.

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

I hear your logic, and it is relatively sound - however I think the devil is in the details. It would seem that your proposal would significantly increase the points of failure - separate ATO, Heater, Skimmer, Dose calibration has to be spot on between two heads, etc. And you are looking at multiple additional points of failure in terms of water chemistry - alk/cal uptake, salinity (which can additionally shift faster if the Dose exchange is not absolutely perfect everytime. If this shifts, your alk/cal will also not be accurate!) - and an entire another set of water tests to do on the frag tank to make sure the system you have set up is working as intended. Whereas just adding another pump and creating a loop from the common sump is just one point of failure - the pump (and I guess the overflow plumbing, but those are pretty bullet proof with a bean animal). I have QT tanks for fish and corals, and when I'm running the QT coral tank I can tell you it is a pain to maintain and test a whole other aquarium. But that might just be me, LOL. If the tanks not succumbing to each other's crashes is your goal - any toxin, parasite, or bacteria will transfer between, so you can't count on isolating that - so I guess you have to make a choice about whether your proposed system is more stable and can be a hedge against chemistry swings, or is the system you propose going to precipitate more chemistry swings than a single body of water. I'm guessing the latter. I have a 900g system and try to simplify wherever I can, due to sheer task loading. But, everyone is different with different goals and tolerances for husbandry and maintenance.

Okay... I'm definitely really on the fence, going to mull it over more before I make any big decision. Thanks a lot for playing a (very thoughtful!) devil's advocate. Much appreciated!

 

[o2manyfish]

Either marry the frag tank into the system or make them 100% independent.

If the 2 tanks are connected in any way, then anything bad that occurs in one tank is going to transfer to the other tank. In the event of a tank seam failure - if both tanks are plumbed using overflows then when the seam blows and the sump gets pumped dry the remaining tank is still full of water up to the over flow - You aren't getting any additional 'protection'. The only 'protection' is isolating the tanks.

But at the same time, if you have isolated tanks, if you get a pathogen in Tank A and you want to keep it out of Tank B - You not only need a 2nd isolated complete system, but 1) You need to scrub your hands and arms any time you work from system to system. 2) You need separate tools for each aquarium - nets, siphon tubes, cleaning tools, etc. And even then I have know some QT facilities that have seen pathogens jump from one isolated system to the other via the air in the room.

Given that's so difficult to control in your small (home/basement) environment - Save yourself a lot of headaches and put some thought into plumbing the two tank to one system. Using gravity, and overflows to insure that should either tank fail mechanically the other tank keeps enough water in it to sustain life in the tank till you can turn some valves and fix the issue.

I have a 1500g System - 750g Display, (2) 180g Frag Tanks, 120g Anemone tank all plumbed into 1 sump. I don't have redundant coral colonies in the event something horrible happens to the system - And this has broken my heart several times over the decades. But in the long run maintaining one system makes my life much easier and means I have more time to enjoy my system and spend less time working on the system.

Also the bigger your water volume gets the more stable your system will get.

Dave B

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

Either marry the frag tank into the system or make them 100% independent.

If the 2 tanks are connected in any way, then anything bad that occurs in one tank is going to transfer to the other tank. In the event of a tank seam failure - if both tanks are plumbed using overflows then when the seam blows and the sump gets pumped dry the remaining tank is still full of water up to the over flow - You aren't getting any additional 'protection'. The only 'protection' is isolating the tanks.

But at the same time, if you have isolated tanks, if you get a pathogen in Tank A and you want to keep it out of Tank B - You not only need a 2nd isolated complete system, but 1) You need to scrub your hands and arms any time you work from system to system. 2) You need separate tools for each aquarium - nets, siphon tubes, cleaning tools, etc. And even then I have know some QT facilities that have seen pathogens jump from one isolated system to the other via the air in the room.

Given that's so difficult to control in your small (home/basement) environment - Save yourself a lot of headaches and put some thought into plumbing the two tank to one system. Using gravity, and overflows to insure that should either tank fail mechanically the other tank keeps enough water in it to sustain life in the tank till you can turn some valves and fix the issue.

I have a 1500g System - 750g Display, (2) 180g Frag Tanks, 120g Anemone tank all plumbed into 1 sump. I don't have redundant coral colonies in the event something horrible happens to the system - And this has broken my heart several times over the decades. But in the long run maintaining one system makes my life much easier and means I have more time to enjoy my system and spend less time working on the system.

Also the bigger your water volume gets the more stable your system will get.

Dave B

Hey Dave... I read through your post last night and thought about it for awhile. Also, I stalked all of your past build threads and whatnot (dang, you have a lot of experience!). Thanks very much for your input, I think I'm putting the kabosh on my "partial" idea and just plumbing them together.

Thanks everyone for your awesome input!

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

Thanks again everyone for the input... After a lot of thought I've decided to just plumb them together the "normal" way....

That said, I have done some research on this and am seeking additional advice to anyone who can spare it...

To re-iterate earlier sentiments, I'm running RM /carefully monitoring trace/nutrients on my main DT. When I hook up this 50-60G frag tank to my display, do I need to worry about a potential massive parameter fluctuation? It's easy enough to match salinity.... Alk / Calcium a bit tougher... Nutrients/trace will be even tougher!

Any thoughts on that guys? Thanks again for your help!