Upgrade disaster

[brandon429]

This thread is being used constantly in tank move planning
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/hurry.813208/

it’s so important for tank relocation jobs to read this thread first. Just about daily we complete a new tank blend or move using 100% tap rinses. I noticed our reef board still lacks a no-rinse move thread...the way we move is the safest known in reefing so it’s the default until a better way is known.

and another, job isn’t even started yet. We try and catch in the planning phase so the move goes well.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/moving-a-tank.813601/#post-8716593

 

[redeyejedi]

I won’t be surprised, here’s why-


1. the forum doesn’t have as a reference sticky a tank move thread with live time jobs to copy, people assemble the plan based off their collective best approach guess

2. all owners of large, old reefs with untouched sandbeds have stated it’s ideal to do it that way exclusively, deep cleaning during a move is not an option in anyone’s book. But it’s the only option that works without fail. result = 30% moves go bad. The majority transfer but have real invasion issues, but those successes still make the recommends to do the job without a rinse bc it worked


https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/what’s-your-opinion-on-the-role-of-detritus-in-a-reef-tank.701884/


in that thread above, any reader will leave thinking their sandbed should not be cleaned especially when moving and to do so will kill the bacteria, cause a cycle, and cause the sandbed biology and substrate filter to crash (all untrue) its written right there above. it’s codified in reefing, rinsing kills bac and dead bac kills a reef


someone has literally made that up and it stuck as rule material for us all




there are two types of sandbed work options:

-what worked for one, custom jobs where old sand was just moved
vs
-what works for pages and pages and pages for the public

in order to get consistency we r going to need tap water, thats ironic for a reef tank.

I moved my 130l tank that had been set up for 2 years, never cleaned the sand. Emptied the tank so only the sand and a inch of water left in the tank, transported the tank to my new house and by the time it arrived the leftover water was almost black. Just filled it with all the water i took out previously and added rock, coral and fish etc. Apart from a algae bloom i luckily lost zero livestock lol.

 

[brandon429]

We agree that’s been done, it’s been discussed on the three prior pages here.

exactly like quarantine debate, many skip it, and advise others to, but they can’t make work threads for proof using others tanks it always has to be their own example. It’s always just their own example...never uses others tanks so we can verify patterning

hop in someone’s move thread, tell them you’re sure it’s safe to move old sand, post outcome. it will be fine, for a little while



What we are doing is tracking both these methods ( rinse or no rinse tank moves ) for outcome comparison. After fifty pages of tap rinsing, we have no losses.

in the fish disease forum, what method is saving fish for the first twenty pages? But hasn’t Paul skipped quarantine for fifty years? why even use it in the fish disease forum? Repeatability is why.

 

[brandon429]

I really do agree no rinse moves outnumber rinsed ones. Where the stats change markedly is when we have others use the method then report back.

years ago we tried making a no rinse move technique over at nano-reef.com and it didn’t work. What that means is we took time to build examples of -other people’s moves- and we noticed fish dying, shrimp dying, tons of gha and cyano in the new setup tanks

are the rinse examples I’m linking having issues?

this upgrade disaster thread has lots of tank transfer testimonies, no rinsing, it will be easy for you guys to make the counter work thread for sure. Just have twenty random reefs who have sand in various states do the unrinsed move and log the outcome.

 

[Aqua Man]

IMO one of the factors in moving a sand bed is length of time. The longer the time without oxygen increases the risk of death. Also how Full of crud and life the bed is. Temperature too.

Moved a tank awhile back and the sand was full of little snails. Rinsing with hot tap probably would of killed all the snails.

We replaced the sand at a later time, just to be safe.

Yes, the new sand was rinsed for hrs in tap.

 

[brandon429]

I truly think if someone makes a no rinse move thread it’ll work about 90% of the time or better. the rare losses will be thousands of dollars in fish though, painful losses.


there’s a legit debate here on what killed OP’s fish, great points have been made that it wasn’t smelly ammonia or sulfide and that gives doubters room to doubt, combined with their own experiences of safe moves no rinse.

In my opinion approaching fifty pages now in the sand rinse thread and no losses really does isolate problems down to the unrinsed sand, whatever it contains that is causing the loss is tbd but the going theme here is that only the sand rinse thread uses other peoples reefs as examples and the non rinse group has only single testimonies. The gap in between these two practices is where the fun science and discovery will be found. Within that gap the uncontrolled massive losses are found, related solely to sand event and not days delayed after.

 

[brandon429]

We had someone make a thread recently on no qt procedure. At nine pages, there isnt a single work they can track, nobody signed up it’s been rolls of discussions about the owners tanks who don’t qt.


but in the fish disease forum every single page has a work thread for quarantine and fallow, med issuance, and direct follow up using others tanks where details aren’t conveniently omitted at times. Losses still happen, just like no quarantine advocates have fish die in their tanks and didn’t do a necropsy to be able to comment about that death.

when following a given claim, non compliant tank owners will post fervently/ loudly when things don’t work...it’s why work threads have a sting element to them and most steer clear. Posting about our own tanks only is safe. We control all the info, we omit conflicting information just the same.


what this hobby needs, specifically, is for someone here to copy and paste this sentence below into a thread post in the general forum, then you run the entire job set live time. I think this thread will instead get ten more pages of personal testimony.


-How to transfer and combine reef tanks without sand rinsing-

Salstrom, Lasse, any takers? we seem resolved here it’s not the sand, let’s test. Anyone who likes nitrification and surface area science would jump on that. Post it in the general forum.

 

[davidcalgary29]

That is a great idea. When I bought my used RSM 250 in January, complete with 50 lbs of live rock and another twenty or so of live sand, I should have set this up as an experiment! I didn't rinse out the sand...because I hadn't read that you were supposed to do this. I just dumped the uncleaned sand and rock in the tank (which was a mistake, as the rocks had aiptasia and majanos), and didn't experience an ammonia spike (I tested). The sand was stinky, but the tank only had two snails at that point (I should have asked when the fish were removed). I wasn't really concerned about nuking the tank, as I didn't have any livestock in it except the two trochus snails that came with it.

 

[brandon429]

+1 for personal testimony

we need a thread titled above, not someones own move testimony we agree 90% go well, and the move testimonies here are those majority. the next nine posters who didnt rinse their sand need to present with a study link, a thread we click on where someone tested counter claims.
It’s not a surprise if moving over waste that gha and cyano likes doesn’t cause an ammonia spike.

let’s see a mere ten of those jobs ran, to show total control. Let entrants self update on gha and cyano four months later.
We trust rinsing here enough to make the thread:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/official-sand-rinse-and-tank-transfer-thread.230281/
I hope it stand out it’s not me making a point with my own reef. When someone can align that many variables in a no rinse thread, or a quarter of the amount, we will have something.

 

[brandon429]

My issue is I think this is dangerous info for the 90% to be advocating here, pressing a little firmer than normal for that work thread. We can’t have an opinion on the matter without making a work thread. We can type one out, but without the thread we miss any form of proofing.



I don’t think the original poster here needs much convincing.


what did Dr. Tim say right here about disturbing sand killing tanks?
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/creating-a-safe-anoxic-environment.714723/
how about here, Vette almost kills a twenty thousand dollar reef tank by disturbing the sand with a powerhead:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-white-sand-method.252861/page-11