Urchin ate my wrasse?

[Lavey29]

They eat meat, sorry to say but thats just how it is, I’m not wanting to convince you or argue with you.

I suppose they could be omnivores. I like steak but eat an occasional salad too.

 

[i cant think]

Hello reefers,

I have a question, is it possible that my tuxedo urchin killed my Pink streaked wrasse...
I have a 26gal RS nano that's currently home to a pair of black storm clowns, tailspot blenny, fire shrimp, one scarlet hermit, three blue legged hermits (all four are small), and various snails. I've also seen an abundance of small serpent starfish in the rock work. All inhabitants are doing well, and I've not seen any aggression problems with any of the fish. Anyway, I came home today to feed my tank and noticed that the pink streaked wrasse was missing. Right away, I had a feeling that it was a goner because since day one, it's never been one of the shy ones. It was always out swimming in the open or hunting over the rockwork. I noticed the urchin was stationary over a spot of rock where I keep some ricordias. I lifted the tuxedo urchin, and to my surprise, pieces of the pink streaked wrasse were stuck to the urchins spines right where its mouth is. I highly doubt the pink streak wrasse was sick. Is it possible for tuxedo urchins to kill fish? What do you guys think?

I have had urchins eat wrasses, usually they get them when asleep.
I have a photo of my Pincushion (who got banished to my 4’ tank) munching a Possum I had 4 years ago (just posted below). Unfortunately, it’s not often you get a true herbivore or carnivore in the wild, they all eat some form of meat or some form of plant to help the digestive system or deficiencies in nutrients.

From vendor algaebarn -

Where many snails, crabs, etc. won't eat much (or any) hair algae, tuxedo sea urchins seem to relish it. Given that sea urchins are such well-known as herbivores to the average reef aquarist, it might be a little surprising how often they are overlooked in clean-up crews

This may just change your mind… One noise I’ll never forget is that grinding sound.

 

[i cant think]

Hello reefers,

I have a question, is it possible that my tuxedo urchin killed my Pink streaked wrasse...
I have a 26gal RS nano that's currently home to a pair of black storm clowns, tailspot blenny, fire shrimp, one scarlet hermit, three blue legged hermits (all four are small), and various snails. I've also seen an abundance of small serpent starfish in the rock work. All inhabitants are doing well, and I've not seen any aggression problems with any of the fish. Anyway, I came home today to feed my tank and noticed that the pink streaked wrasse was missing. Right away, I had a feeling that it was a goner because since day one, it's never been one of the shy ones. It was always out swimming in the open or hunting over the rockwork. I noticed the urchin was stationary over a spot of rock where I keep some ricordias. I lifted the tuxedo urchin, and to my surprise, pieces of the pink streaked wrasse were stuck to the urchins spines right where its mouth is. I highly doubt the pink streak wrasse was sick. Is it possible for tuxedo urchins to kill fish? What do you guys think?

Also how long have you had the pink streak for and what size was he when you got him?

 

[i cant think]

Urchin does not have speed or ability to hunt down a fish unless it is very weak.
Any lost of appetite, heavy breathing or odd behavior with wrasse most recently?

They do also take advantage of fish when they’re asleep, especially if they’re in a corner. Urchins may not be incredibly fast but when a fish is easy to grab, they can take the chance especially if deprived of some form of nutrient or foods.

 

[JNalley]

From vendor algaebarn -

Where many snails, crabs, etc. won't eat much (or any) hair algae, tuxedo sea urchins seem to relish it. Given that sea urchins are such well-known as herbivores to the average reef aquarist, it might be a little surprising how often they are overlooked in clean-up crews

From an educational Institute specializing in Oceanography and Marine Biology:

Sea Urchins

Sea urchins will eat just about anything that floats by. Its sharp teeth can scrape algae off rocks, and grind up plankton, kelp, periwinkles, and sometimes even barnacles and mussels.

 

[JNalley]

duplicate post

 

[vetteguy53081]

From an educational Institute specializing in Oceanography and Marine Biology:

Sea Urchins

Sea urchins will eat just about anything that floats by. Its sharp teeth can scrape algae off rocks, and grind up plankton, kelp, periwinkles, and sometimes even barnacles and mussels.

As they are scavengers.

 

[Lavey29]

From an educational Institute specializing in Oceanography and Marine Biology:

Sea Urchins

Sea urchins will eat just about anything that floats by. Its sharp teeth can scrape algae off rocks, and grind up plankton, kelp, periwinkles, and sometimes even barnacles and mussels.

Keep in mind the OP referenced tuxedo urchin.

We can go back and forth on this. There are dozens of websites that list them as herbivores. Exampl From one site:

Diet Requirements: Tuxedo urchins are voracious herbivores. They consume various algae on the live rock, including hair algae. If insufficient algae is present, we recommend supplementing sheet algae to prevent starvation.

I speculate that when they are hungry enough they may scavenge other meals though.

URCHIN - TUXEDO Mespilia globulus - Aquatics Unlimited

The Tuxedo Urchin comes in two variations: the Blue Tuxedo Urchin, with broad bands that are blue to black in color in between bands.

aquaticsunlimited.com

Tuxedo Urchin - Algae Destroyer For Your Clean Up Crew

The tuxedo urchin is one of the most and useful clean up crew members and will eat annoying Green Hair Algae. They are peaceful and reef safe.

fragbox.ca

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

As mentioned, an urchin may take to eating dead/dying fish, but they don't generally go for live fish.


With regards to the herbivore vs. omnivore vs. carnivore thing with urchins (and keeping in mind that all species of urchins have different diets) - I had a similar conversation a while ago about a specific species of starfish, so here's my two cents on the matter:

We tend to think of herbivores and carnivores in black and white terms - thinking that something is either a pure herbivore, a pure carnivore, or an omnivore. In reality, though, these terms are more of a sliding scale/spectrum than separate categories, and only the extreme ends of the spectrum have "pure" diets.

For example, cows (well known for being herbivores) have been known to sometimes eat insects (or even mice/in extreme cases, chickens) - this would, by strict definitions, make them omnivores, but they're not considered to be such. Similarly, carnivores eat the guts of their prey, and often end up eating undigested plants in the process - but they're still carnivores. Frugivorous (fruit-eating) toucans also have been known to purposefully eat insects during their breeding season for extra protein, so they may be considered omnivores during their breeding season, but they're not considered omnivores during the rest of the year.


So, a better way to think about herbivore, omnivore, and carnivore is like this:

-Does the species need one or more specific feeds to survive, and, if so, which category/categories are these feeds from?

-On average, what percentage of the species' diet comes from which category? Does a substantial portion of the diet consistently come from more than one category?

-Is the ingestion of each food item purposeful, or incidental? (i.e. Does the species purposefully seek out foods from a specific category when they have the chance to do so, or not? Does it happen to eat foods from a specific category while consuming foods from another?)

-How does the species' diet change throughout the year? (Edit: How does the species' diet change throughout its life? [some species have drastically different diets at different life stages; for examples, Crown of Thorns Starfish are herbivores as larvae/juveniles, but carnivores as adults]).


Pretty much all species will branch out a little from their natural diet on occasion (hence why we sometimes get tangs eating corals, though it is rare), so there are frequently exceptions to the above, but these questions should get you the big picture.

To apply this to tuxedo urchins:
-If the species only requires one food (algae) to survive, then it's likely an herbivore.

-If the majority of a species' diet consists of foods from only one category, and only an insignificantly small portion of the species' overall diet consists of a food outside of that category (say, like a dying wrasse), then it's likely an herbivore.

-If the ingestion of foods from outside of its primary food category is incidental rather than purposeful, then it's likely an herbivore (in this case, there's a good chance the ingestion was purposeful - so one point for the omnivore category).

-Tuxedo urchin diets don't really change drastically throughout the year, so no change here.


So, using the criteria above, tuxedo urchins are herbivores, but they're not pure herbivores (and neither are herbivorous fish, which are really more omnivores, but eating significant portions of algae is uncommon among fish, so they're considered herbivores).

An example of a pure herbivore would be an Elysia species Sacoglossan slug, which only feeds on macroalgae. Several nudibranchs are examples of pure carnivores.

So, most creatures are technically omnivores, but may be considered as herbivores or omnivores depending on the criteria above.

 

[Lavey29]

As mentioned, an urchin may take to eating dead/dying fish, but they don't generally go for live fish.


With regards to the herbivore vs. omnivore vs. carnivore thing with urchins (and keeping in mind that all species of urchins have different diets) - I had a similar conversation a while ago about a specific species of starfish, so here's my two cents on the matter:

We tend to think of herbivores and carnivores in black and white terms - thinking that something is either a pure herbivore, a pure carnivore, or an omnivore. In reality, though, these terms are more of a sliding scale/spectrum than separate categories, and only the extreme ends of the spectrum have "pure" diets.

For example, cows (well known for being herbivores) have been known to sometimes eat insects (or even mice/in extreme cases, chickens) - this would, by strict definitions, make them omnivores, but they're not considered to be such. Similarly, carnivores eat the guts of their prey, and often end up eating undigested plants in the process - but they're still carnivores. Frugivorous (fruit-eating) toucans also have been known to purposefully eat insects during their breeding season for extra protein, so they may be considered omnivores during their breeding season, but they're not considered omnivores during the rest of the year.


So, a better way to think about herbivore, omnivore, and carnivore is like this:

-Does the species need one or more specific feeds to survive, and, if so, which category/categories are these feeds from?

-On average, what percentage of the species' diet comes from which category? Does a substantial portion of the diet consistently come from more than one category?

-Is the ingestion of each food item purposeful, or incidental? (i.e. Does the species purposefully seek out foods from a specific category when they have the chance to do so, or not? Does it happen to eat foods from a specific category while consuming foods from another?)

-How does the species' diet change throughout the year?


Pretty much all species will branch out a little from their natural diet on occasion (hence why we sometimes get tangs eating corals, though it is rare), so there are frequently exceptions to the above, but these questions should get you the big picture.

To apply this to tuxedo urchins:
-If the species only requires one food (algae) to survive, then it's likely an herbivore.

-If the majority of a species' diet consists of foods from only one category, and only an insignificantly small portion of the species' overall diet consists of a food outside of that category (say, like a dying wrasse), then it's likely an herbivore.

-If the ingestion of foods from outside of its primary food category is incidental rather than purposeful, then it's likely an herbivore (in this case, there's a good chance the ingestion was purposeful - so one point for the omnivore category).

-Tuxedo urchin diets don't really change drastically throughout the year, so no change here.


So, using the criteria above, tuxedo urchins are herbivores, but they're not pure herbivores (and neither are herbivorous fish, which are really more omnivores, but eating significant portions of algae is uncommon among fish, so they're considered herbivores).

An example of a pure herbivore would be an Elysia species Sacoglossan slug, which only feeds on macroalgae. Several nudibranchs are examples of pure carnivores.

So, most creatures are technically omnivores, but may be considered as herbivores or omnivores depending on the criteria above.

Well stated..... let's say a prayer for the OP fish and move on. Hopefully the rest of his inhabitants are ok.

 

[RudeDawg]

Also how long have you had the pink streak for and what size was he when you got him?

About 2", and I've had it about 4-5months. It was the third addition to the tank after the pair of clownfish. I made the mistake of adding a pygmy angel to this nano tank about 2 weeks after the wrasse. Needless to say, it immediately displaced the wrasse from the rockwork and would constantly harass it. But I removed that angelfish from my tank immediately so I doubt that harassing was the cause of the wrasse dying as it happened months ago. Again, the wrasse was eating and always out swimming. Never had a problem catching food, and ate out in the open with the clownfish and waterflow of two Nero 3s.

 

[Dodge Ram]

Had a wrasse. She was a wild and powerful swimmer. There is alot of rockwork and I think she ran into the pencil urchin I have. Lost a couple Filefish too.
Urchins score either way. Defense or offense. Eating time.

 

[RudeDawg]

As mentioned, an urchin may take to eating dead/dying fish, but they don't generally go for live fish.


With regards to the herbivore vs. omnivore vs. carnivore thing with urchins (and keeping in mind that all species of urchins have different diets) - I had a similar conversation a while ago about a specific species of starfish, so here's my two cents on the matter:

We tend to think of herbivores and carnivores in black and white terms - thinking that something is either a pure herbivore, a pure carnivore, or an omnivore. In reality, though, these terms are more of a sliding scale/spectrum than separate categories, and only the extreme ends of the spectrum have "pure" diets.

For example, cows (well known for being herbivores) have been known to sometimes eat insects (or even mice/in extreme cases, chickens) - this would, by strict definitions, make them omnivores, but they're not considered to be such. Similarly, carnivores eat the guts of their prey, and often end up eating undigested plants in the process - but they're still carnivores. Frugivorous (fruit-eating) toucans also have been known to purposefully eat insects during their breeding season for extra protein, so they may be considered omnivores during their breeding season, but they're not considered omnivores during the rest of the year.


So, a better way to think about herbivore, omnivore, and carnivore is like this:

-Does the species need one or more specific feeds to survive, and, if so, which category/categories are these feeds from?

-On average, what percentage of the species' diet comes from which category? Does a substantial portion of the diet consistently come from more than one category?

-Is the ingestion of each food item purposeful, or incidental? (i.e. Does the species purposefully seek out foods from a specific category when they have the chance to do so, or not? Does it happen to eat foods from a specific category while consuming foods from another?)

-How does the species' diet change throughout the year?


Pretty much all species will branch out a little from their natural diet on occasion (hence why we sometimes get tangs eating corals, though it is rare), so there are frequently exceptions to the above, but these questions should get you the big picture.

To apply this to tuxedo urchins:
-If the species only requires one food (algae) to survive, then it's likely an herbivore.

-If the majority of a species' diet consists of foods from only one category, and only an insignificantly small portion of the species' overall diet consists of a food outside of that category (say, like a dying wrasse), then it's likely an herbivore.

-If the ingestion of foods from outside of its primary food category is incidental rather than purposeful, then it's likely an herbivore (in this case, there's a good chance the ingestion was purposeful - so one point for the omnivore category).

-Tuxedo urchin diets don't really change drastically throughout the year, so no change here.


So, using the criteria above, tuxedo urchins are herbivores, but they're not pure herbivores (and neither are herbivorous fish, which are really more omnivores, but eating significant portions of algae is uncommon among fish, so they're considered herbivores).

An example of a pure herbivore would be an Elysia species Sacoglossan slug, which only feeds on macroalgae. Several nudibranchs are examples of pure carnivores.

So, most creatures are technically omnivores, but may be considered as herbivores or omnivores depending on the criteria above.

Wow! Didn't think my question would elicit such passionate responses from you guys.

 

[RudeDawg]

Completely anecdotal but I still believe the Urchin killed the wrasse and made a partial meal of it. More than likely caught it by surprise over night while the wrasse slept. As stated before, it had no obvious signs of illness or injury. What I do know is my wrasse was extremely docile. To the point where I could reach into the tank and grab it. Maybe other pink streak wrasse owners can chime in to the docile and peaceful nature of these wrasses.

 

[Toob]

Keep in mind the OP referenced tuxedo urchin.

We can go back and forth on this. There are dozens of websites that list them as herbivores. Exampl From one site:

Diet Requirements: Tuxedo urchins are voracious herbivores. They consume various algae on the live rock, including hair algae. If insufficient algae is present, we recommend supplementing sheet algae to prevent starvation.

I speculate that when they are hungry enough they may scavenge other meals though.

URCHIN - TUXEDO Mespilia globulus - Aquatics Unlimited

The Tuxedo Urchin comes in two variations: the Blue Tuxedo Urchin, with broad bands that are blue to black in color in between bands.

aquaticsunlimited.com

Tuxedo Urchin - Algae Destroyer For Your Clean Up Crew

The tuxedo urchin is one of the most and useful clean up crew members and will eat annoying Green Hair Algae. They are peaceful and reef safe.

fragbox.ca

I don’t have an opinion on the Urchin discussion, but you should really use better sources than product page blurbs at online stores for biology debates.

 

[Lavey29]

I don’t have an opinion on the Urchin discussion, but you should really use better sources than product page blurbs at online stores for biology debates.

This thread has been thoroughly discussed but there is plenty of material via Google on urchins such as this article from the Professor of Biology at this university.

The Urchins of Hagfors - Augsburg Now

www.augsburg.edu

 

[reefermadnes5]

I had a tux that loved the glass. All day. Never saw it touch the krill. I have a long spine currently that prefers the krill and will perch on the glass in the flow where the food is dropped and it funnels the chunks with its spines and will sit there all day slowly eating it away. I grip that it was supposed to be a cleaner and not stealing the krill from the swimmers. Tbh i liked my tux better.