Using ground probes in aquariums

[BeanAnimal]

Agree. . . . probes are great but an alternative and not a solution until the leaking source of energy is located.

They can create danger In some edge case if not used in conjunction with full GFCI protection.

 

[capted]

Very true. A ground probe can actually cause fires if the breaker doesn't "pop" when they are used without gfci protection. It will complete the path of the hot lead if there is a leak of voltage. Almost like it's a load on the current...

 

[Lasse]

NO GFCI and NO PROBE - The tank IS NOT grounded. You likely DO NOT get shocked.

My bold - I disagree - you are grounded by your feet on the floor - and believe - that´s enough grounding to get a shock even with working shoes on. I have been doing the 50 Hz solo dance so many times that I for sure know that.

Fist of all - electricity DOES NOT take the path of LEAST RESISTANCE. It takes ALL PATHS in proportion to their resistance.

True but it takes the part that exist in that specially moment. If you are grounded both by your hand in the water and your feet on the ground - most current will go through neck to hand for sure but if you not have your hand in the grounded water or if it's not is grounded - all will got the path from your neck to your feet and if that current is over 30 mA for a prolonged period - you will be hurt or even killed

GFCI Alone - The GFCI breaker may or may not have tripped, depending on the grounding status of the reflector itself. If it has not tripped when you contact the reflector and water (with shoes on) nothing changes. Bare Feet? The GFCI trips and protects you because the current leaks through you to the floor (not the tank). So still safe for the tank, and now safe for you.

I do not know how the US form of GFCI works but here in Sweden it trips regardless of which path the current takes to the ground because the ground is the same for both the ground probe and your feet or grounded wall sockets. Here they also trips if a child come in contact with the phase of a wall socket even if the socket is not grounded. Swedish GFCI for personal protection trips at 30 mA

If you have any 110V/240V AC equipment in or close to your salt water aquarium/water - IMO - its important to use a ground probe (or as in my case a grounded titan heather) In my case - I have no 240V AC into or near the water excluding the titan heater (grounded). Only works with 12 - 24 V DC - even the ballast to my LED fixture is outside the aquarium.

The heather is the most critical equipment (according power and temperature security) Using glas heaters with internal thermostats is IMO to ask for trouble sooner or later. Titan heaters with outside temp control (or controlled by an aquarium computer) is the best to use in saltwater. These are always protectively grounded and should be connected to a protectively grounded outlet. Hence they act as grounded probe for you.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[BeanAnimal]

Hi Lasse - If you get shocked, there is a path to ground for sure. The different scenarios were general situations. Some shoes are better insulators than others :)

The basic premise for each scenario still stands, and the goal was to simply illustrate that a ground probe used without full GFCI protection is far more dangerous than a tank with NO GFCI or probe. We can draw each of the scenarios out as a simple circuit and apply Kirchhoff's Voltage Law to show where the current goes. That is the beauty about this subject, there is no guesswork!

GFCI - it works the same everywhere. GFCI measures current differential between hot and neutral. If you make contact with the hot and neutral and are not grounded, you will be shocked, as you become the load and the GFCI doesn’t know or care.

Heaters- wrote an article years ago on then subject and agree, though many/most (en titanium shell) are not grounded. If they are, then as above, it is insane to not protect the entire tank with GFCI.

 

[Lasse]

GFCI - it works the same everywhere. GFCI measures current differential between hot and neutral. If you make contact with the hot and neutral and are not grounded, you will be shocked, as you become the load and the GFCI doesn’t know or care.

Talk about it - Once my doctor ask me why I had 2 holes in my hand and I answer him that it was a new form of two holes in the wall :):)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[BeanAnimal]

Talk about it - Once my doctor ask me why I had 2 holes in my hand and I answer him that it was a new form of two holes in the wall :):)

Sincerely Lasse

I have a terrible habit plugging things in blind, using my fingers to feel the receptacle blades and the slots in the receptacle... sometimes....

I spent a decent part of my adult life (underground mining) working around 480-575 AC 3-phase and up to 650 DC at high available current (1kA in some cases). There is no "breaker" on the feeder for an electric track locomotive... The trolly wire will melt in two before anything "trips". In any case, getting an ear into low hanging trolley wire is always a memorable experience. The taste of licking a battery is unforgettable, esp when you didn't lick a battery. Wet rubber boots don't always make good insulators!

Here I had to reconnect my electric mains service after a panel upgrade ~20 years ago. Hot from the pole to the house. Fiberglass ladder, with rubber mat underneath. Wrenches and wire cutters wrapped in electrical tape and lineman's gloves... Was still a nervous wreck. The worst part is trying to keep the phase conductors from touching each other or touching two of them at once. Will NEVER do that again. My neck gets tense even thinking about it.

 

[Flameback Pair]

I can end all this constant bickering of the so called experts here with a simple statement. First you all need to explain what a GFCI really is. It's nothing but a circuit breaker in the breaker box. All you experts are causing reefers to run out and buy circuit breakers that are built-in to the wall outlet once installed. I have obsoletely no electrical experience but I know the whole confusion is that the word, "circuit breaker" is slang for GFCI and that it can be put directly in the wall outlet but is better in the breaker box if setup properly. This post should be enshrined, set aside from the rest of the thread, and be agreed upon by all the electrical guru's.

 

[Lasse]

First you all need to explain what a GFCI really is. It's nothing but a circuit breaker in the breaker box

from this page

Sincerely Lasse

 

[gbroadbridge]

.

 

[Flameback Pair]

These two accomplish the same thing.

 

[Lasse]

I´m not familiar with US equipment - but IMO - the first picture looks like normal automatically fuses for me - not GFCI.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Nano_Man]

Great information from Brew 12

 

[Paul B]

All you experts are causing reefers to run out and buy circuit breakers that are built-in to the wall outlet once installed. I have obsoletely no electrical experience but I know the whole confusion is that the word, "circuit breaker" is slang for GFCI and that it can be put directly in the wall outlet but is better in the breaker box if setup properly.

LOL, I actually am an expert on this as I was a master electrician in Manhattan for 50 years and the company that invented GFCIs sent me to school for them. But for me, I just added 2 electric eels to my tank and that confuses the circuit breaker into thinking it is a GFCI which caused the thing to trip any time I go near the tank or walk by it in my Speedo. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

 

[itgoeson]

I have a grounding probe plugged into a surge protector which is plugged into a GFCI outlet. My tank is several feet from the outlet, so I can’t plug the probe directly into the outlet. The instructions say to plug it directly into an outlet… why? Will it still help at all plugged into the surge protector?

 

[gbroadbridge]

I have a grounding probe plugged into a surge protector which is plugged into a GFCI outlet. My tank is several feet from the outlet, so I can’t plug the probe directly into the outlet. The instructions say to plug it directly into an outlet… why? Will it still help at all plugged into the surge protector?

Yes, as long as the surge protector earth connection is not faulty.

Of course if the outlet earth is faulty it wont work even if plugged in directly

 

[Lasse]

Of course if the outlet earth is faulty it wont work even if plugged in directly

GFCI works even in not grounded outlets

From here

When you view a normal 120-volt outlet in the United States, there are two vertical slots and then a round hole centered below them. The left slot is slightly larger than the right. The left slot is called "neutral," the right slot is called "hot" and the hole below them is called "ground." If an appliance is working properly, all electricity that the appliance uses will flow from hot to neutral. A GFCI monitors the amount of current flowing from hot to neutral. If there is any imbalance, it trips the circuit.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Euphyllia098]

These two accomplish the same thing.

I'm sorry, but those are not the same thing and work entirely different. If anything your post is dangerous.

A circuit breaker only trips if the circuit is overloaded, aka drawing more current than the breaker is rated for.

A GFCI looks for an imbalance between the neutral and hot and disconnects power to the outlet if an imbalance is there.

Relying only on the circuit breaker in your panel you can basically absorb the entire capacity of the circuit before it would trip and you could very well be dead.

 

[gbroadbridge]

GFCI works even in not grounded outlets

From here



Sincerely Lasse

Sorry, problem between chair and keyboard.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I can end all this constant bickering of the so called experts here with a simple statement. First you all need to explain what a GFCI really is. It's nothing but a circuit breaker in the breaker box. All you experts are causing reefers to run out and buy circuit breakers that are built-in to the wall outlet once installed. I have obsoletely no electrical experience but I know the whole confusion is that the word, "circuit breaker" is slang for GFCI and that it can be put directly in the wall outlet but is better in the breaker box if setup properly. This post should be enshrined, set aside from the rest of the thread, and be agreed upon by all the electrical guru's.

A GFCI and a circuit breaker are not the same thing.

A "Circuit Breaker" is traditionally an overcurrent device and is designed to protect the WIRING and NOT YOU!!!

A GFCI can break a circuit, but it has nothing to do with overcurrent or protecting the wire. It is designed to protect YOU.

A GFCI is a simple device. It measures the amount of current that passes through two wires (in this case the HOT and the NEUTRAL) and they if they are unequal DOWNSTREAM of the GFCI by more than (usually 20ma) they circuit is disconnected at the point if GFCI installation.

Some CIRCUIT BREAKERS also INCLUDE GFCI (ground fault) and AFCI (arc fault) protection.

I suggest (in the kindest manner) not giving electrical advice if you (by your own words) know nothing about electricity ;)
Happy Reefing

 

[vetteguy53081]

A GFCI and a circuit breaker are not the same thing.

A "Circuit Breaker" is traditionally an overcurrent device and is designed to protect the WIRING and NOT YOU!!!

A GFCI can break a circuit, but it has nothing to do with overcurrent or protecting the wire. It is designed to protect YOU.

A GFCI is a simple device. It measures the amount of current that passes through two wires (in this case the HOT and the NEUTRAL) and they if they are unequal DOWNSTREAM of the GFCI by more than (usually 20ma) they circuit is disconnected at the point if GFCI installation.

Some CIRCUIT BREAKERS also INCLUDE GFCI (ground fault) and AFCI (arc fault) protection.

I suggest (in the kindest manner) not giving electrical advice if you (by your own words) know nothing about electricity ;)
Happy Reefing

I have references for electrical (below) but agree as to giving advice which may not end well