Using NP-Bacto-Balance

[Hans-Werner]

Pod_01 has explained a lot already, thank you for filling in!

Spdjnky, like Pod_01 explained, Plus-NP would be the right product in your nutrient situation.

Usually we get reported that nitrate concentration drops when using NP-Bacto-Balance although nitrogen and even nitrate is added. A rising nitrate concentration while phosphate concentration is dropping is quite unusual. I suspect, together with the tank conditions, the organic carbon may have reduced nitrate to nitrite and the nitrite is giving a false-high concentration of nitate.

To find this out, could you please check for nitrite?

 

[Spdjnky]

Thanks again and really nice pictures I have just talked to Lou and I will be talking to him on a zoom call this afternoon thank you I will keep you in the loop well I figured this out with a lot of help thank you again

 

[Pod_01]

Pod_01 has explained a lot already, thank you for filling in!

Spdjnky, like Pod_01 explained, Plus-NP would be the right product in your nutrient situation.

Usually we get reported that nitrate concentration drops when using NP-Bacto-Balance although nitrogen and even nitrate is added. A rising nitrate concentration while phosphate concentration is dropping is quite unusual. I suspect, together with the tank conditions, the organic carbon may have reduced nitrate to nitrite and the nitrite is giving a false-high concentration of nitate.

To find this out, could you please check for nitrite?

Hans-Werner,
the part on “organic carbon may have reduced nitrate to nitrite” how does that happen?

I observed this in my tank, PO4 went down NO3 was going down and suddenly it increased. I measured NO2 and that was up and I could not explain it “nothing died, no extra food etc…”. I assumed the test kits were defective and ignored the phenomenon “nothing to see here type of deal”. But here I see you mentioned it that it might be an actual phenomenon.
Also is this a potential problem and how does one solve it?
Or does one need to solve/address it?

 

[Spdjnky]

There are many ways to get nice tank, also lot of the methods and how to deal with mature tanks full of corals that are stable. I have not found clear methods for beginners, and I struggled a lot.
What worked for me 1) use TM All For Reef 2) weekly 10% water changes 3) use TM Nitrobiotic and ReefActif weekly 4) use NP Bacto ballance 5) coral feeding (still struggling with correct amount)
6) Skimmer for filtration 7) Activated carbon (30g per 100l of water) change once a month, passive.
This seems to work for me and it is simple.
Here are some pictures:

I just wanted to thank you again pod for helping me out and bringing Lou in on the problem. I cannot tell you how excited I was to have Lou to talk to on a zoom call where he could see everything and give me pointers on which way to go now all I have to do is try to follow them I will be keeping in touch with him through email regularly this all would not have happened if it wasn't for you so just thank you again and I will keep you updated on the reef and hopefully soon I will be able to start to have something that looks close to as good as yours does

 

[Pod_01]

I just wanted to thank you again pod for helping me out and bringing Lou in on the problem. I cannot tell you how excited I was to have Lou to talk to on a zoom call where he could see everything and give me pointers on which way to go now all I have to do is try to follow them I will be keeping in touch with him through email regularly this all would not have happened if it wasn't for you so just thank you again and I will keep you updated on the reef and hopefully soon I will be able to start to have something that looks close to as good as yours does

You are welcome, reefing hobby can be very confusing with a lot of conflicting information (good and bad). The trick is to get on the right journey at the start and Lou and TM does that, from my experience. Good luck and provide updates because I am still learning as well. Hopefully someone else will find the information useful as well.

 

[Spdjnky]

You are welcome, reefing hobby can be very confusing with a lot of conflicting information (good and bad). The trick is to get on the right journey at the start and Lou and TM does that, from my experience. Good luck and provide updates because I am still learning as well. Hopefully someone else will find the information useful as well.

You are right about that this is not an easy hobby. As I discussed with Lou and he showed me and told me what I need to do is have my refugium basically slow down a little bit for lack of better words meaning is actually working too good so I have cut back on the light schedule and I will cut back a little further in a few weeks two hopefully work on the balance of my nitrates and phosphates.
And the other thing I am trying to learn which is probably the hardest for me at least is too slow down and not test every day two three times a day like I have been and stop trying to make adjustments too fast right now I feel like it's killing me not to test but I said I would wait until tomorrow that's what I plan on doing LOL.

 

[Rams]

You are right about that this is not an easy hobby. As I discussed with Lou and he showed me and told me what I need to do is have my refugium basically slow down a little bit for lack of better words meaning is actually working too good so I have cut back on the light schedule and I will cut back a little further in a few weeks two hopefully work on the balance of my nitrates and phosphates.
And the other thing I am trying to learn which is probably the hardest for me at least is too slow down and not test every day two three times a day like I have been and stop trying to make adjustments too fast right now I feel like it's killing me not to test but I said I would wait until tomorrow that's what I plan on doing LOL.

Nice.any update after cutting back refugium light?

 

[Spdjnky]

		KH dKH	Ca ppm	Mg ppm	NO3 ppm	PO4 ppm	S SG
Apr 30	Sat	8.7	442	1440	3.5	0.09	1.025

here's an update tested everything this morning as you can see nitrate and phosphate are just right without dosing this is after cutting the light on the refugium back to 8 hours and taking another big ball of Algae out. I have to make note that the phosphates started at .19 ppm after cutting the light cycle back and removing more algae. So now they are at .09 ppm have to keep an eye on him and see if they're going to keep dropping or level out.

 

[Rams]

https://www.aquaticlog.com/aquariums/spdjnky/9/parameter/Alkalinity		KH dKH	Ca ppm	Mg ppm	NO3 ppm	PO4 ppm	S SG
Apr 30	Sat	8.7	442	1440	3.5	0.09	1.025

here's an update tested everything this morning as you can see nitrate and phosphate are just right without dosing this is after cutting the light on the refugium back to 8 hours and taking another big ball of Algae out. I have to make note that the phosphates started at .19 ppm after cutting the light cycle back and removing more algae. So now they are at .09 ppm have to keep an eye on him and see if they're going to keep dropping or level out.

Looking solid

 

[fishy408]

Following - Started using NP Bacto-Balance last week on a 100g tank. Started dose at 1Ml/Day.

 

[Spdjnky]

Just another update it's been three days now that I haven't dosed anything and my NO3 is 4.2 ppm and PO4 is .09 ppm. So far I attribute reducing the lighting on my Refugium and removing and thinning out the amount of algae in it to the stabilization of the nutrients PO4 and No3.
But I do realize that I am adding more fish this week and as I feed more I will have to keep an eye on them and the work that the refugium does and I may have to use them again but for now considering where I've come from and the trouble I've had in the past I'm pretty happy.

 

[hivelyj6]

Hans-Werner,
the part on “organic carbon may have reduced nitrate to nitrite” how does that happen?

I observed this in my tank, PO4 went down NO3 was going down and suddenly it increased. I measured NO2 and that was up and I could not explain it “nothing died, no extra food etc…”. I assumed the test kits were defective and ignored the phenomenon “nothing to see here type of deal”. But here I see you mentioned it that it might be an actual phenomenon.
Also is this a potential problem and how does one solve it?
Or does one need to solve/address it?

Yeah I'd really like to know what this mechanism is.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Sorry for not answering earlier, somehow I missed this question.

Every reduction or oxidation process of nitrogen you can imagine may take place somewhere in a reef tank. Most aquarists have heard about the nitrification process, but also the reverse process called nitrate reduction may take place.

There are two possible ways of nitrate reduction to ammonium, the assimilatory and the dissimilatory nitrate reduction. In the assimilatory nitrate reduction, nitrate is reduced to ammonia for incorporation into amino acids, assimilation means incorporation.

In dissimilatory nitrate reduction nitrate is used for respiration instead of oxygen, similar as in denitrification, but it may be reduced even further to ammonium.

Since sometimes we find nitrite in systems with sulfur nitrate reactors or with organic carbon dosing, obviously nitrite in the two-step reduction process to ammonium or N2 may be excreted and build up in the water to concentrations we find with a test kit and which may impair nitrate determination.

Since nitrite is relatively non-toxic in saltwater the nitrite concentrations we find in reef tanks are not harmful to fish.

 

[Pod_01]

Sorry for not answering earlier, somehow I missed this question.

Every reduction or oxidation process of nitrogen you can imagine may take place somewhere in a reef tank. Most aquarists have heard about the nitrification process, but also the reverse process called nitrate reduction may take place.

There are two possible ways of nitrate reduction to ammonium, the assimilatory and the dissimilatory nitrate reduction. In the assimilatory nitrate reduction, nitrate is reduced to ammonia for incorporation into amino acids, assimilation means incorporation.

In dissimilatory nitrate reduction nitrate is used for respiration instead of oxygen, similar as in denitrification, but it may be reduced even further to ammonium.

Since sometimes we find nitrite in systems with sulfur nitrate reactors or with organic carbon dosing, obviously nitrite in the two-step reduction process to ammonium or N2 may be excreted and build up in the water to concentrations we find with a test kit and which may impair nitrate determination.

Since nitrite is relatively non-toxic in saltwater the nitrite concentrations we find in reef tanks are not harmful to fish.

Thank you for the answer Hans-Werner. Since I am not Biologist or Chemist it is lot to digest, as they say above my pay grade but I will get there.

If I observe this process in my reef tank and I am carbon dosing, does it mean there is an issue? Do I need to do anything?

I do understand that nitrite is not an issue for saltwater vs. freshwater.

 

[hivelyj6]

Sorry for not answering earlier, somehow I missed this question.

Every reduction or oxidation process of nitrogen you can imagine may take place somewhere in a reef tank. Most aquarists have heard about the nitrification process, but also the reverse process called nitrate reduction may take place.

There are two possible ways of nitrate reduction to ammonium, the assimilatory and the dissimilatory nitrate reduction. In the assimilatory nitrate reduction, nitrate is reduced to ammonia for incorporation into amino acids, assimilation means incorporation.

In dissimilatory nitrate reduction nitrate is used for respiration instead of oxygen, similar as in denitrification, but it may be reduced even further to ammonium.

Since sometimes we find nitrite in systems with sulfur nitrate reactors or with organic carbon dosing, obviously nitrite in the two-step reduction process to ammonium or N2 may be excreted and build up in the water to concentrations we find with a test kit and which may impair nitrate determination.

Since nitrite is relatively non-toxic in saltwater the nitrite concentrations we find in reef tanks are not harmful to fish.

So the reduction is benign? If I'm understanding, NO3 is reduced to NO2 and NH3 to form aminos only? As in, the assimilatory does not allow NH3 to remain in solution for long. However, NO3 may also reduce to NO2 and NH4 and remain in solution, thus detectable but harmless?

Edit: just remembered ammonium can dissociate from hydrogen depending on parameters. Sorry for the silly question.

 

[Hans-Werner]

There are no silly questions!

NO2- is quite harmless in saltwater because of the high concentration of chloride ions Cl-. Fish, and most likely other organisms also, have difficulties to discriminate between Cl- and NO2-. While freshwater fish take up Cl- and enricht NO2- internally in this way, marine fish excrete Cl- and consequently rather excrete NO2- instead of taking it up from the water. This is the reason why nitrite is toxic in freshwater, active uptake.

In my opinion the reduction of nitrate to ammonium in limited quantities is also positive since ammonium is the nitrogen form preferred by corals. Corals will take it up and remove it from the water rapidly, so it is unlikely that it will build up to significant concentrations.

 

[hivelyj6]

There are no silly questions!

NO2- is quite harmless in saltwater because of the high concentration of chloride ions Cl-. Fish, and most likely other organisms also, have difficulties to discriminate between Cl- and NO2-. While freshwater fish take up Cl- and enricht NO2- internally in this way, marine fish excrete Cl- and consequently rather excrete NO2- instead of taking it up from the water. This is the reason why nitrite is toxic in freshwater, active uptake.

In my opinion the reduction of nitrate to ammonium in limited quantities is also positive since ammonium is the nitrogen form preferred by corals. Corals will take it up and remove it from the water rapidly, so it is unlikely that it will build up to significant concentration

I use np bacto balance myself. I have a 15 gallon coral only nano. I've noticed my test kit started showing a presence of NH3/NH4 after I started using it. Before I used np bacto, the test kit constantly showed 0ppm. It never caused a problem but this definitely gives me a causal reason. I also had no idea corals preferred to uptake nitrogen through ammonium! You've solved several mysteries for me.

 

[Patx]

https://www.aquaticlog.com/aquariums/spdjnky/9/parameter/Alkalinity		KH dKH	Ca ppm	Mg ppm	NO3 ppm	PO4 ppm	S SG
Apr 30	Sat	8.7	442	1440	3.5	0.09	1.025

here's an update tested everything this morning as you can see nitrate and phosphate are just right without dosing this is after cutting the light on the refugium back to 8 hours and taking another big ball of Algae out. I have to make note that the phosphates started at .19 ppm after cutting the light cycle back and removing more algae. So now they are at .09 ppm have to keep an eye on him and see if they're going to keep dropping or level out.

Yup old thread !
But im in the same place...
Dosing np bacto (1ml/day for 55gallons)
Dosing KH2PO4 ( for +0.03ppm in system) or they will be 0.
Good light in refugium

No3: 20-30ppm (may be no2 related idk)
Po4: 0.03...0.04...

How lowering the light in refugium help recucing no3 (huh?)
Did i miss read something ?