UWC Reaches Settlement with EPA

[sixty_reefer]

"Skeptical thinking is a method, not a position. Officially, skepticism is defined as ‘a method of intellectual caution and suspended judgment’. A skeptic is not closed minded to new ideas, but is cautious of ideas that are presented without supporting evidence."

We are in a hobby where “knowledgable” is passed via echoing and rarely understood. Skeptical thinking may be too much to ask from the average aquarist that just wants a solution to a problem without wanting to understand the underlying issue.

 

[taricha]

Add step 0 to your baloney meter... does the claimant actually have support for their own claims? What a world it would be if consumers required companies to show their work.

So true. I've had this moment before, I get way down the path thinking how could I possibly test something I'm interested in checking. Then I think "Wait, how did they figure out that it actually does this thing they claim?" And after getting into the nitty gritty of what you'd have to do to test it, then I realize they almost certainly didn't do any such checking.

The path of much lower resistance for generating product claims is take a thing from a paper that's been shown to do X in some radically different context (such as a microbe that reduces organics in pig farm wastewater, or a material that binds heavy metals out of some highly contaminated source) and simply print that claim on the the bottle for a reef product because it's already been "demonstrated that it works"
and it would work for those people whose reef tanks are run on water from the metal refinery/pig farm... but nobody else.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

and it would work for those people whose reef tanks are run on water from the metal refinery/pig farm... but nobody else.

lol nice

 

[Joe31415]

I will also say that if you put yourself out there as an authority with videos, video series, reviews, etc.,

I used to watch all the BRS/AskBRS videos. I stopped a few years ago when I realized, at least with respect to the videos, they weren't authorities, they were advertisers. That's not to say that they're not 'authorities' or at least that they don't know what they're talking about, but they're advertising. They're doing good reviews for things they sell and subtly knocking the ones they don't. And worse, when the 'reviews' are framed as a normal hobby how-to video. I'm sure, for example, I've seen 'how to set up a skimmer' type videos that aren't so much 'how to set up a skimmer' as they are 'it's, like, a million times harder to tune any skimmer that isn't this expensive DC skimmer that I'm going to demonstrate on. Have fun getting that brand new AC skimmer with it's single knob to do anything other than overflow or do nothing at all for the first two weeks'.

I've given up on a number of youtubers that I really liked as their youtube channel gets bigger and they seem to quietly shift from doing videos strictly in service of the hobby to doing videos which are in service of a brand. Don't get me wrong, you can be an expert, do great, informative videos, and still make money from sponsors. But if, over a few months I see your shop filling up with a bunch of yellow welding equipment while you're telling me how crappy the blue ones are...I'm going to assume you're getting paid by the yellow ones.

 

[Reefer Matt]

I've given up on a number of youtubers that I really liked as their youtube channel gets bigger and they seem to quietly shift from doing videos strictly in service of the hobby to doing videos which are in service of a brand.

Yeah, most yt channels are for marketing. Money and free products are usually their motivation. But that’s what most yt viewers want to see, the latest products. Making informational home videos with no outside support is a lot of time, effort, and money, with a lot less of an audience. So the motivation to do it dwindles sometimes as well.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Yeah, most yt channels are for marketing. Money and free products are usually their motivation. But that’s what most yt viewers want to see, the latest products. Making informational home videos with no outside support is a lot of time, effort, and money, with a lot less of an audience. So the motivation to do it dwindles sometimes as well.

Yeah, the whole ASMR unboxing thing. I don’t get it, I’m just too old I guess. I have zero interest hearing how the box feels to the touch, hearing the knife blade cutting through the tape in surround sound, the war and peace description of how well something is packaged to the animal planet description of the journey the box took to get from a to b… sorry I got sidetracked with this

 

[jda]

So true. I've had this moment before, I get way down the path thinking how could I possibly test something I'm interested in checking. Then I think "Wait, how did they figure out that it actually does this thing they claim?" And after getting into the nitty gritty of what you'd have to do to test it, then I realize they almost certainly didn't do any such checking.

The path of much lower resistance for generating product claims is take a thing from a paper that's been shown to do X in some radically different context (such as a microbe that reduces organics in pig farm wastewater, or a material that binds heavy metals out of some highly contaminated source) and simply print that claim on the the bottle for a reef product because it's already been "demonstrated that it works"
and it would work for those people whose reef tanks are run on water from the metal refinery/pig farm... but nobody else.

Many of them do just bottle up what they read about in the papers/literature somewhere. The TM CBD product has verbiage taken from a study with I think tilapia in freshwater farms... only they don't make any mention of it anywhere, totally missed the point of the study and got really mad when I suggested that they don't have any labs to test anything (nor could give any proof of a lab when others pushed back too).

I get that many products are for other industries. Ironically enough, Flatworm Exit is the pig dewormer Prohibit/Levamisole, but when Salifert put it out, they also had at least some attempt at showing how they came up with a reef-safe concentration and how it still killed standard Red Planaria.

I think that you all know my thought on any one specific study... had professor in college with like 20 honorary PhDs (or something like that, seriously) that said that he could commission a study to prove that your mom was your dad and you dad was your mom. However, it would be better than what we have. Like data, a lot of these companies use a study how a drunk person uses a lamppost... more for support and than for illumination (Andrew Lang.)

 

[jda]

Yes, BRS always has had their own best interests in mind. It is too bad that not more can see it. Like any source who editorializes, nobody expects perfection but public retractions and fixing mistakes is a must if you have any integrity. They have none.

When Marty Scorsese makes the 3 hour movie of the UWC Scandal, I am imagining DeNiro replaying his scene in Casino firing the slots manager when they get taken for a bunch of big jackpots in the same day... he screams "You were either too stupid to know what was happening or you were in on it!"

 

[GARRIGA]

Advertisers wouldn't earn a living were they 100% truthful and why we the consumer need to educate ourselves and question outlandish claims, within reason. First I heard of Vibrant assumed it might just have FW only bacteria reinforced by the fact BRS was promoting it and they seem rather knowledgeable and less peddling of profits. Perhaps I should have remained skeptical and did m ore research on that which I didn't understand.

Best question everything even if it annoys those you contradict or selling the dream. End of day. I'm ultimately responsible for that I allow into my life.

 

[Tamberav]

Wasn't it more than double the cost of algaefix though? Selling an algaecide as a harmless bacteria with a hunger for algae is fraud, is it not. Next up, people selling bottle bacteria that contain pathogenic microbes.

ahhh well Eco balance was tested twice and Serratia Marcescens was found in both samples.. and there is this:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2761.1992.tb00632.x

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

I was curious about the spillover from this. I just noticed a rumor floating around that Aiptasia x was discontinued. If true (being the internet and all so I have my doubts) I’m wondering if this played a part.

 

[jda]

It was pointed out to me that Vibrant is completely gone from Amazon - like not even around to search but unavailable to buy. Gone, gone. I have no idea what this means. Anybody have access to a wholesale list to see if it is still available from them?

 

[Reefer Matt]

It was pointed out to me that Vibrant is completely gone from Amazon - like not even around to search but unavailable to buy. Gone, gone. I have no idea what this means. Anybody have access to a wholesale list to see if it is still available from them?

Not seeing it with my suppliers.

 

[Reefer Matt]

I was curious about the spillover from this. I just noticed a rumor floating around that Aiptasia x was discontinued. If true (being the internet and all so I have my doubts) I’m wondering if this played a part.

I can’t find it with my suppliers, but Amazon still has some. This could be the industry ripple I was talking about or a coincidence.

 

[jda]

Aiptasia X was likely just watered down calcium hydroxide. You could make it at home in a stronger concentration. It is not like even CoralRx that while likely natural will need tea tree, witch hazel, lavender, citronella, hemp oil, orange oil and who knows what else to copy even if they did list the ingredients - nobody is buying ingredients to make this at home.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

Aiptasia X was likely just watered down calcium hydroxide. You could make it at home in a stronger concentration. It is not like even CoralRx that while likely natural will need tea tree, witch hazel, lavender, citronella, hemp oil, orange oil and who knows what else to copy even if they did list the ingredients - nobody is buying ingredients to make this at home.

Understood, just like f Aiptasia. No quote pesticides involved, but as I read it, and as you posted at the start of the thread…..it sounds like any product claiming to eliminate pests must be registered (regardless of chemical composition). I don’t even use the product (have many years ago), then just a Kalk slurry as you mentioned. I wasn’t trying to come up with a diy solution as a replacement, just commenting on the rumor that it’s discontinued and me connecting the dots to the possibility it’s related to this ruling.

Edit. And to be clear, this was just an internet rumor. I’m not claiming the product has actually been discontinued…but someone is.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

I can’t find it with my suppliers, but Amazon still has some. This could be the industry ripple I was talking about or a coincidence.

I think Amazon still has vibrant (at least until recently)! Ha

 

[jda]

It appears that you have to honestly and accurately fill out an EPA document and list the ingredients accurately on the label. This is not some sort of overly cumbersome or restrictive act. The approval process is different if they deny your registration, but with natural stuff in the product, it won't likely need approval. If a company cannot figure this out, then you should think twice about using their products anyway.

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

It appears that you have to honestly and accurately fill out an EPA document and list the ingredients accurately on the label. This is not some sort of overly cumbersome or restrictive act. The approval process is different if they deny your registration, but with natural stuff in the product, it won't likely need approval. If a company cannot figure this out, then you should think twice about using their products anyway.

I’m not arguing here…..I’m on your side