Valentini and spiny box puffer needing urgent help

[Tonic]

I posted several days ago regarding the same issue, but something else is happening.

I got a very new valentini (from what I now know to be a less than reputable shop) and a spiny box puffer from a different place, within days of each other. As such, they are in the same QT. Initially, the valentini was not doing so well, and the bicolor blenny he came with died pretty quickly. However, with advice from folks here, combined with advice from a puffer-specific forum, he managed to pull through, and the day after I expected he wouldn't make it, he was acting completely normal again. The suspected diagnosis was marine velvet.

Within the same time, I had the spiny box puffer come in, with another blenny. After getting them acclimated to the QT, the box puffer had some visible spots on his fins that looked exactly like ich.

Given that information, I was using Humblefish's method to treat both. We did a freshwater dip a few days ago, and another last night before a ruby reef rally bath (which I didn't get in until yesterday). During this entire time, they have been at a half-dose of cupramine (puffer-specific directions from a forum that I trusted), and Kanaplex as a precaution, as advised by Humblefish. I've been doing 50% water changes daily, as advised, removed substrate and filter media, and keeping a close eye on parameters. They have, until this point, been acting and looking great, getting used to eating a little, and calming down.

However, as of this afternoon, I noticed that the second blenny was breathing extremely hard, and he was dead within a could of hours. I also noticed the valentini breathing slightly harder, colors getting dark, and is starting to tip to one side or the other occasionally...going back to the same symptoms I saw when I first got him in. The box puffer has seemed a bit more frantic, and his breathing seems slightly labored - enough to make me worry.

After the blenny died and I noticed the labored breathing from both puffers, I decided to do a full water change (to be clear, I have no cycle in QT right now, it's all manual given the circumstance), in order to make absolutely sure that cupramine levels were correct (the Seacham copper test I have is very hard to read accurately), and to pull the plug completely on the Kanaplex, in case that was causing complications. I drip accimated them back in, and they're chilling with the lights off right now.

One of the things I'm pretty worried about is the water itself - I know adding conditioner (Prime is what I'm using, though I have others), can make copper more toxic. But I don't have access to RODI water (it's completely not an option right now, and wouldn't even know where to start with that). I've been under the impression that I can't just give them chlorinated water, and I also can't dechlorinate, so I've been using Prime at half-dose, just as a best guess.

Ultimately, I can't tell if they're just stressed, if the Kanaplex was the cause, or if something to do with the cupramine is not being tolerated. If it's the cupramine, should I pull the plug on that too? Obviously that will mean the velvet/ich will crop back up. To be clear, I definitely don't have the money for chloroquine phosphate right now, or really anything else that's not very reasonably priced...I've spent all the money I have available on saving these two so far. I'm at a loss.

Tank info:
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm
PH: 8.0
Salinity: 1.024

 

[vetteguy53081]

I posted several days ago regarding the same issue, but something else is happening.

I got a very new valentini (from what I now know to be a less than reputable shop) and a spiny box puffer from a different place, within days of each other. As such, they are in the same QT. Initially, the valentini was not doing so well, and the bicolor blenny he came with died pretty quickly. However, with advice from folks here, combined with advice from a puffer-specific forum, he managed to pull through, and the day after I expected he wouldn't make it, he was acting completely normal again. The suspected diagnosis was marine velvet.

Within the same time, I had the spiny box puffer come in, with another blenny. After getting them acclimated to the QT, the box puffer had some visible spots on his fins that looked exactly like ich.

Given that information, I was using Humblefish's method to treat both. We did a freshwater dip a few days ago, and another last night before a ruby reef rally bath (which I didn't get in until yesterday). During this entire time, they have been at a half-dose of cupramine (puffer-specific directions from a forum that I trusted), and Kanaplex as a precaution, as advised by Humblefish. I've been doing 50% water changes daily, as advised, removed substrate and filter media, and keeping a close eye on parameters. They have, until this point, been acting and looking great, getting used to eating a little, and calming down.

However, as of this afternoon, I noticed that the second blenny was breathing extremely hard, and he was dead within a could of hours. I also noticed the valentini breathing slightly harder, colors getting dark, and is starting to tip to one side or the other occasionally...going back to the same symptoms I saw when I first got him in. The box puffer has seemed a bit more frantic, and his breathing seems slightly labored - enough to make me worry.

After the blenny died and I noticed the labored breathing from both puffers, I decided to do a full water change (to be clear, I have no cycle in QT right now, it's all manual given the circumstance), in order to make absolutely sure that cupramine levels were correct (the Seacham copper test I have is very hard to read accurately), and to pull the plug completely on the Kanaplex, in case that was causing complications. I drip accimated them back in, and they're chilling with the lights off right now.

One of the things I'm pretty worried about is the water itself - I know adding conditioner (Prime is what I'm using, though I have others), can make copper more toxic. But I don't have access to RODI water (it's completely not an option right now, and wouldn't even know where to start with that). I've been under the impression that I can't just give them chlorinated water, and I also can't dechlorinate, so I've been using Prime at half-dose, just as a best guess.

Ultimately, I can't tell if they're just stressed, if the Kanaplex was the cause, or if something to do with the cupramine is not being tolerated. If it's the cupramine, should I pull the plug on that too? Obviously that will mean the velvet/ich will crop back up. To be clear, I definitely don't have the money for chloroquine phosphate right now, or really anything else that's not very reasonably priced...I've spent all the money I have available on saving these two so far. I'm at a loss.

Tank info:
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm
PH: 8.0
Salinity: 1.024

Given the circumstances, I’m concerned with zero readings posted. I assume you are using api kits
There has been a lot of various treatments in a short amount of time leading to possible poisoning or low oxygen
When treating with copper or coppersafe, it is important to treat at full not 1/2 dosages and for a full 30 days . Seachem is hard to read yes and Hanna both reliable and friendly
With puffers, cupramine is somewhat harsisnd copper power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 is better bet
You can empty the tank and restart at with copper power
As for RODI, as a substitute you can use:
-Drinking water from grocery dtore
-Water refill station water at Walmart
Distilled water to get you by

Refrain from mixing meds…. And while humble fish is a well respected person and source, you have to determine what’s happening and proceed than reading 3-4-5 humble fish posts , add treatment, then call for help
Hopefully info above will get you on track

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I posted several days ago regarding the same issue, but something else is happening.

I got a very new valentini (from what I now know to be a less than reputable shop) and a spiny box puffer from a different place, within days of each other. As such, they are in the same QT. Initially, the valentini was not doing so well, and the bicolor blenny he came with died pretty quickly. However, with advice from folks here, combined with advice from a puffer-specific forum, he managed to pull through, and the day after I expected he wouldn't make it, he was acting completely normal again. The suspected diagnosis was marine velvet.

Within the same time, I had the spiny box puffer come in, with another blenny. After getting them acclimated to the QT, the box puffer had some visible spots on his fins that looked exactly like ich.

Given that information, I was using Humblefish's method to treat both. We did a freshwater dip a few days ago, and another last night before a ruby reef rally bath (which I didn't get in until yesterday). During this entire time, they have been at a half-dose of cupramine (puffer-specific directions from a forum that I trusted), and Kanaplex as a precaution, as advised by Humblefish. I've been doing 50% water changes daily, as advised, removed substrate and filter media, and keeping a close eye on parameters. They have, until this point, been acting and looking great, getting used to eating a little, and calming down.

However, as of this afternoon, I noticed that the second blenny was breathing extremely hard, and he was dead within a could of hours. I also noticed the valentini breathing slightly harder, colors getting dark, and is starting to tip to one side or the other occasionally...going back to the same symptoms I saw when I first got him in. The box puffer has seemed a bit more frantic, and his breathing seems slightly labored - enough to make me worry.

After the blenny died and I noticed the labored breathing from both puffers, I decided to do a full water change (to be clear, I have no cycle in QT right now, it's all manual given the circumstance), in order to make absolutely sure that cupramine levels were correct (the Seacham copper test I have is very hard to read accurately), and to pull the plug completely on the Kanaplex, in case that was causing complications. I drip accimated them back in, and they're chilling with the lights off right now.

One of the things I'm pretty worried about is the water itself - I know adding conditioner (Prime is what I'm using, though I have others), can make copper more toxic. But I don't have access to RODI water (it's completely not an option right now, and wouldn't even know where to start with that). I've been under the impression that I can't just give them chlorinated water, and I also can't dechlorinate, so I've been using Prime at half-dose, just as a best guess.

Ultimately, I can't tell if they're just stressed, if the Kanaplex was the cause, or if something to do with the cupramine is not being tolerated. If it's the cupramine, should I pull the plug on that too? Obviously that will mean the velvet/ich will crop back up. To be clear, I definitely don't have the money for chloroquine phosphate right now, or really anything else that's not very reasonably priced...I've spent all the money I have available on saving these two so far. I'm at a loss.

Tank info:
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm
PH: 8.0
Salinity: 1.024

There are a number of possible issues here, it would be impossible to identify which one or ones are causing this issue.

I agree with @vetteguy53081 it is impossible to have all zeros for nitrogen compounds except in certain low nutrient reef tanks. Something is likely wrong with your test kits or testing methods. Food is going into the tank and fish are producing ammonia, that either builds up as ammonia, or it get converted to nitrate.

It is also possible that the velvet/Amyloodinium is still circulating in the tank. You should always wait 30 days after the onset of a disease event before adding new fish. The new fish could have brought disease in themselves.

Never dose any Cupramine with Prime. It creates toxic free copper. Even at a half dose, this can happen. The Seachem web site says: If Prime® is added to a tank that contains Cupramine™, it converts the Cupramine™ into a more toxic form. If this happens accidentally, you'll need to remove the Cupramine™ right away using activated filter carbon or CupriSorb™.

Never dose antibiotics "as a precaution" only to treat known disease. Never dose copper at half dose - it will NOT work. The dose of copper needed to kill parasites is very close to the amount that will harm puffers, but if you drop below the treatment level, copper doesn't just work slowly, it stops working all together. Cupramine is harsher than Coppersafe. You should use Coppersafe, or perhaps Copper Power on puffers, but at full dose.

This is a fish-only treatment tank. Tap water is fine, you do not need RODI for that. Just aerate it for 24 hours prior to using it (Unless you live in a city that uses chloramines).

Jay

 

[Tonic]

There are a number of possible issues here, it would be impossible to identify which one or ones are causing this issue.

I agree with @vetteguy53081 it is impossible to have all zeros for nitrogen compounds except in certain low nutrient reef tanks. Something is likely wrong with your test kits or testing methods. Food is going into the tank and fish are producing ammonia, that either builds up as ammonia, or it get converted to nitrate.

It is also possible that the velvet/Amyloodinium is still circulating in the tank. You should always wait 30 days after the onset of a disease event before adding new fish. The new fish could have brought disease in themselves.

Never dose any Cupramine with Prime. It creates toxic free copper. Even at a half dose, this can happen. The Seachem web site says: If Prime® is added to a tank that contains Cupramine™, it converts the Cupramine™ into a more toxic form. If this happens accidentally, you'll need to remove the Cupramine™ right away using activated filter carbon or CupriSorb™.

Never dose antibiotics "as a precaution" only to treat known disease. Never dose copper at half dose - it will NOT work. The dose of copper needed to kill parasites is very close to the amount that will harm puffers, but if you drop below the treatment level, copper doesn't just work slowly, it stops working all together. Cupramine is harsher than Coppersafe. You should use Coppersafe, or perhaps Copper Power on puffers, but at full dose.

This is a fish-only treatment tank. Tap water is fine, you do not need RODI for that. Just aerate it for 24 hours prior to using it (Unless you live in a city that uses chloramines).

Jay

Thank you both, this is very helpful. Jay, do mean specifically chloramines, or all DBPs - because we definitely have trihalomethanes. Sorry - just not sure how all this interacts.

 

[MnFish1]

Thank you both, this is very helpful. Jay, do mean specifically chloramines, or all DBPs - because we definitely have trihalomethanes. Sorry - just not sure how all this interacts.

IN addition to what Jay and vetteguy said - why can't you 'dechlorinate'? There are many other products than Prime that you could use. There should be water available from an LFS - or distilled water to make up your water. IMHO - the risk of trihalomethane is far far lower than the risk of velvet to your fish. As you have seen - velvet can kill quickly - often in the matter of hours. I did not see Jay mention Chloramines. Does your water supply use them?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you both, this is very helpful. Jay, do mean specifically chloramines, or all DBPs - because we definitely have trihalomethanes. Sorry - just not sure how all this interacts.

Adding ammonia to city water is how some agencies reduce the level of trihalomethane in the water. Makes it safer for people, but the amine/chlorine bond is tough to break...time doesn't work well, you need to add a double dose of dechlor. However, any excess dechlor will also break the ammonia/copper bond in the Cupramine, allowing free copper to be released, poisoning the fish.

Note: I'm not a chemist, but that is how I've always understood it....

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

Adding ammonia to city water is how some agencies reduce the level of trihalomethane in the water. Makes it safer for people, but the amine/chlorine bond is tough to break...time doesn't work well, you need to add a double dose of dechlor. However, any excess dechlor will also break the ammonia/copper bond in the Cupramine, allowing free copper to be released, poisoning the fish.

Note: I'm not a chemist, but that is how I've always understood it....

Jay

Curious - for everyone's education - if that were the case - why are these cities not seeing multiple fish deaths From the additional ammonia. My 'total guess' is that these products are designed to take care of magnitudes of ammonia above the concerning amount - or - it's mostly freshwater. Just curious about your opinion

 

[MnFish1]

Curious - for everyone's education - if that were the case - why are these cities not seeing multiple fish deaths From the additional ammonia. My 'total guess' is that these products are designed to take care of magnitudes of ammonia above the concerning amount - or - it's mostly freshwater. Just curious about your opinion

PS - at the pH of the normal reef tank - do you think that the amount of ammonia released would be toxic

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Curious - for everyone's education - if that were the case - why are these cities not seeing multiple fish deaths From the additional ammonia. My 'total guess' is that these products are designed to take care of magnitudes of ammonia above the concerning amount - or - it's mostly freshwater. Just curious about your opinion

When Ann Arbor, MI switched to chloramines in the late 1970's their water treatment folks forgot to tell anyone. That weekend, every marine aquarists doing water changes on their tanks lost fish, it was horrible. The FW folks got by because some of their tanks had really low pH levels, so the ammonia wasn't toxic.

We contacted the newspaper and put up signs in our store, but it was still months before we stopped getting calls, "I did a water change and all my fish died!"

Eventually, the city was able to better dial in their dose and it hasn't been as much of an issue. Still you need to use double dechlor and do < 25% water changes.

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

When Ann Arbor, MI switched to chloramines in the late 1970's their water treatment folks forgot to tell anyone. That weekend, every marine aquarists doing water changes on their tanks lost fish, it was horrible. The FW folks got by because some of their tanks had really low pH levels, so the ammonia wasn't toxic.

We contacted the newspaper and put up signs in our store, but it was still months before we stopped getting calls, "I did a water change and all my fish died!"

Eventually, the city was able to better dial in their dose and it hasn't been as much of an issue. Still you need to use double dechlor and do < 25% water changes.

Jay

Hi Jay - Thanks - I was thinking more about the OP's question that he cannot 'dechlorinate' - because I know that there are chemicals that take care of chlorine and chloramines. I also was wondering about his comments concerning trihalomethane. I.e. what would you recommend for someone that needs to make a QT tank - in an area where chloramines are being used? A certain product?, running through carbon for a couple days before using, etc etc?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Jay - Thanks - I was thinking more about the OP's question that he cannot 'dechlorinate' - because I know that there are chemicals that take care of chlorine and chloramines. I also was wondering about his comments concerning trihalomethane. I.e. what would you recommend for someone that needs to make a QT tank - in an area where chloramines are being used? A certain product?, running through carbon for a couple days before using, etc etc?

The best way to deal with chloramines is to batch treat the tsp water; double dose of dechlor and then running zeolite before adding salt. The next best way is to double dose dechlor and add Amquel.
Jay

 

[MnFish1]

The best way to deal with chloramines is to batch treat the tsp water; double dose of dechlor and then running zeolite before adding salt. The next best way is to double dose dechlor and add Amquel.
Jay

And Amquel and copper are ok together?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

And Amquel and copper are ok together?

Probably not Cupramine. Amquel needs to be dosed the the FW before the salt is added. Then, you add the mixed seawater to your tank, measure the copper and redose accordingly. Don’t use any reducing agents in excess with any amine-based copper, the chemistry just isn’t well known.
Jay