Velvet, brook, and bacterial infection

[FarmerTy]

I'm at a loss. I've lost over half my fish tank stock. I feel like I have the perfect storm of 3 diseases.

I definitely have velvet as several fish were covered in the fine dust seemingly overnight and some swam towards the top of the tank and in front of powerheads.

What gets me though is my emperor is covered in white film over his eyes and body and the white film is flaking off, very reminescent of brooklynella. My regal angelfish died a couple days ago and strings were coming off its fins, very reminiscent of brook.

Lastly, several fish have red sores around their fin areas, mouths, and bodies. They look like bacterial sores. I'm baffled at this as both QTs are dosed with 3 combined antibiotics.

So do I have the perfect storm of velvet, brook, and secondary bacterial infections?

Here's what I am doing to counteract with little success.

-Freshwater dip daily for 5 mins
-acriflavin bath for 60-90 mins (ruby reef rally at 1 teaspoon/gallon)

I don't have access to prescription CP so I am using the NLS Ich Powder as an alternative for now for the QT. I have dosed the QT with furan 2, Erythromycin, and kanaplex for a triple threat dose of antibiotics.

Sores still getting more red, emperor completely covered with white mucus over body and eyes, and everybody has a white velvety appearance to their bodies.

I do have coppersafe and may try that next with antibiotics if I don't see general improvement. It'll knock out marine velvet and ich but I don't think it'll work for the potential brook.

Any thoughts are much appreciated.

 

[aykwm]

Brook is possible since you have a clown fish with them which is common to be infected with brook. If I may suggest you to add metroplex, it will help fight bacterial infections and also it might cure brook. I think the red sores are caused by bacterial infection due to the primary infections.
For ich shield I have no idea of the CP amount available and how effective is it. That said, I can't see signs of velvet, maybe photos aren't clear (for angel hard to say if its indeed velvet or not with all the skin flaking). Do you see any other symptoms of velvet like sensitivity to light, flashing, ....
Going up to surface of tank might be due to heavy breathing caused by infection in gills.

Be sure to monitor ammonia since you are dosing antibiotics which might affect the bio filtration.

 

[GHsaltie]

Firstly, I am going to call in the experts because this is a little bit out of my league. @Humblefish @melypr1985 @ngoodermuth @Brew12
Next a couple questions, how long have they been in QT? Do you have any pictures of the red sores? I'm not familiar with the NLS ich powder, do you know the active ingredients? What species of fish are you treating? If it appears that it's not being effective then I think you should switch over to the coppersafe. You would however have to run carbon for at least 24 hours to remove the ich powder or transfer to a brand new tank. For the brook acriflavine bath is a good treatment however you may want to try switching out the erythromycin for metronidazole. Now I'm no expert, but I am wondering, if you have another QT that you can setup at least 10ft away, if it would be an effective idea to give fish an acriflavine bath then transfer them into a new QT with metro, kana, furan-2, and first dose of coppersafe.
Hopefully everyone will come in soon with their expertise and help you out. I'll be rooting for you, this is a tough situation.

 

[melypr1985]

How many days have you been treating them for? Ick Shield does contain CP but the purity isn't going to be pharmaceutical grade so there's no way to know that the fish are getting the therapeutic dose. Since they aren't getting better, we assume they are not. Copper is going to be the better way to go here.

I do believe you have velvet. It's possible that they had brook, but with daily freshwater dips (not recommended) and daily Rally baths, that's unlikely to still be the case. I'd say there are bacterial infections going crazy here as well. The next time you do a Rally bath, clean out the entire QT and sterilize the best you can. Refill and start using copper. You'll want to run Kanaplex, Furan2 and Metroplex if you have all those. You'll dose them every other day right after a water change. Remember to keep copper levels at therapeutic range during this time as well. Add plenty of extra O2 to the water with a small powerhead or airstones while treating with all these meds at the same time. You can continue the Rally baths if you feel they are helping, but I don't know if I would do them daily at this point.

 

[FarmerTy]

Thanks guys for the quick responses!

To answer your questions, I'm pretty sure on the velvet though none of my pictures posted show it. I've had it before so the symptoms are easy to spot now with the trained eye. While dealing with potential ammonia issues, would it hurt to use some prime with the coppersafe/antibiotics?

NLS Ich Shield is supposed to be a derivitive if chloroquine phosphate but not sure if you end up with the same results or not.

I'll definitely add metro to the fight and guess I'll switch to coppersafe now as the two immediate changes. It may be too late for the emperor I feel but hopefully I can save the rest.

QT has been running for 2 weeks now. Currently have a flame angel, regal angel, 2 clownfish (which oddly show no symptoms of brook so maybe I don't have it), a flame hawkfish, an emperor angel, and a naso tang.

 

[melypr1985]

While dealing with potential ammonia issues, would it hurt to use some prime with the coppersafe/antibiotics?

Never use prime or any ammonia reducers in conjunction with copper or any other medications. While we KNOW it can make copper more toxic and cause serious issues, it's just better being safe than sorry when it comes to using it with other meds..

 

[Barrett]

Do not use prime with coppersafe it becomes toxic.

 

[FarmerTy]

How many days have you been treating them for? Ick Shield does contain CP but the purity isn't going to be pharmaceutical grade so there's no way to know that the fish are getting the therapeutic dose. Since they aren't getting better, we assume they are not. Copper is going to be the better way to go here.

I do believe you have velvet. It's possible that they had brook, but with daily freshwater dips (not recommended) and daily Rally baths, that's unlikely to still be the case. I'd say there are bacterial infections going crazy here as well. The next time you do a Rally bath, clean out the entire QT and sterilize the best you can. Refill and start using copper. You'll want to run Kanaplex, Furan2 and Metroplex if you have all those. You'll dose them every other day right after a water change. Remember to keep copper levels at therapeutic range during this time as well. Add plenty of extra O2 to the water with a small powerhead or airstones while treating with all these meds at the same time. You can continue the Rally baths if you feel they are helping, but I don't know if I would do them daily at this point.

Thanks Mely! I'm really surprised by the rampant bacterial infections with currently kanaplex, furan2, and erythromycin in the water but I understand antibiotics aren't instant and take awhile to be effective.

They are all currently in a ruby reef rally bath right now and I'll do as you say and sterilize the QT as best as I can and dose coppersafe along with the kana, furan2, and now metro.

I've never run copper before. Anybody have a link I can read over or give me the quick basics?

Like slowly ramp up concentration, keep it at therapeutic level for X days, with water changes, dose more copper to keep at therapeutic level, etc. Don't use Y chemicals with it... Etc. Thanks!

 

[FarmerTy]

Never use prime or any ammonia reducers in conjunction with copper or any other medications. While we KNOW it can make copper more toxic and cause serious issues, it's just better being safe than sorry when it comes to using it with other meds..

Do not use prime with coppersafe it becomes toxic.

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[melypr1985]

Copper This link will give you all the detailed info you need.

My quick notes:
Be sure to dose any water change water with copper before adding it back to the QT.
Never use ammonia reducers with copper
Raise the levels slowly, but with velvet you want it to be at therapeutic levels within 24 hours.
Be sure you have the proper test kit for the type of copper you are using.
I like coppersafe better than cupramine. It seems to be a little easier on most fish than cupramine is in my experience.

 

[juicemanatx]

Never use prime or any ammonia reducers in conjunction with copper or any other medications. While we KNOW it can make copper more toxic and cause serious issues, it's just better being safe than sorry when it comes to using it with other meds..

I see this post a lot. Are the ammonia reducing Sponges under the same restriction?

Also, is that just for Copper or is that for really any medication?

Like with regular antibiotics also?

 

[FarmerTy]

Copper This link will give you all the detailed info you need.

My quick notes:
Be sure to dose any water change water with copper before adding it back to the QT.
Never use ammonia reducers with copper
Raise the levels slowly, but with velvet you want it to be at therapeutic levels within 24 hours.
Be sure you have the proper test kit for the type of copper you are using.
I like coppersafe better than cupramine. It seems to be a little easier on most fish than cupramine is in my experience.

Thanks Mely! I had ordered coppersafe on the whim to use it and picked it out because I remember Bobby saying it was his favorite copper product to use. I appreciate the copper tips.

So the main way to combat ammonia is just water changes at this point? I have a seeded sponge filter in the tank as well as a spinning biowheel. Should I remove both to sterilize and go water changes from this point to combat ammonia?

 

[aykwm]

I would avoid the ammonia reducing sponges too. Usually you want to avoid them when using any medications, but some medications has been tested with them and they cause no harm. You can use antibiotics with ammonia reducers.
Also for velvet, CP can also be used to treat that.
For the photo, unfortunately it looks like velvet.
You need to start medicating fast, either CP or copper. I suggest copper because its hard to find CP and you don't have enough time to lose. You can do FW or acriflavine bath to provide relied for the fish. Also you need to treat the rest of the fish too, if one fish is infected, then all the fish are.

 

[melypr1985]

So the main way to combat ammonia is just water changes at this point? I have a seeded sponge filter in the tank as well as a spinning biowheel. Should I remove both to sterilize and go water changes from this point to combat ammonia?

Yes, water changes will be your friend. The sponge filter and biowheel are great and will be your main combatant against ammonia in the QT, but if you are going to really sterilize, then you'll want to sterilize them as well and start over. You can use a bacteria in a bottle product to re-seed the filters when you start over, though water changes will be needed frequently until they colonize to the point of being useful.

 

[FarmerTy]

I would avoid the ammonia reducing sponges too. Usually you want to avoid them when using any medications, but some medications has been tested with them and they cause no harm. You can use antibiotics with ammonia reducers.
Also for velvet, CP can also be used to treat that.
For the photo, unfortunately it looks like velvet.
You need to start medicating fast, either CP or copper. I suggest copper because its hard to find CP and you don't have enough time to lose. You can do FW or acriflavine bath to provide relied for the fish. Also you need to treat the rest of the fish too, if one fish is infected, then all the fish are.

Thanks for the info! I'll attack it with coppersafe now and just swap out my erythromycin with metro. I currently am treating all fish... Helps that there are only a few left... [emoji53]

Yes, water changes will be your friend. The sponge filter and biowheel are great and will be your main combatant against ammonia in the QT, but if you are going to really sterilize, then you'll want to sterilize them as well and start over. You can use a bacteria in a bottle product to re-seed the filters when you start over, though water changes will be needed frequently until they colonize to the point of being useful.

Alright, I'll remove all sponges and sterilize the QT and just do water changes with copper added to replace any water removed. I'll seed a new filter with bacteria in a bottle and stay on top of it until the bacteria seeds.

 

[FarmerTy]

Quick question, for the emperor, I forgot to mention that his eyes are clouded over and white bacterial looking material was sloughing off him. Does velvet symptoms ever include cloudy eyes and sloughing slime? That was the reason I thought I may have brook too but two freshwater dips and 2 acriflavin baths later, its still there so I assume bacterial?

 

[melypr1985]

Quick question, for the emperor, I forgot to mention that his eyes are clouded over and white bacterial looking material was sloughing off him. Does velvet symptoms ever include cloudy eyes and sloughing slime? That was the reason I thought I may have brook too but two freshwater dips and 2 acriflavin baths later, its still there so I assume bacterial?

Yes. Infected eyes often accompany velvet. The sloughing you see is likely the slime coat going into overdrive to combat all these issues at once.... assuming brook wasn't part of the issue in the first place of course. They are definitely infected at this point though, so that and the velvet are what I would concentrate on.

 

[FarmerTy]

Thanks Mely!

 

[melypr1985]

Thanks Mely!

any time sweetie.

 

[Humblefish]

Ty - I'm very sorry to see/hear this. Any idea what introduced the disease(s)? New coral frag?

I agree with switching over to copper, as NLS Ick Shield's purity can be questionable. I would also add metronidazole to address the possibility of brook.

Consider this "emergency protocol" as an option since your fish seem to have parasites PLUS a bacterial infection: https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/the-bacterial-infection-predicament.315/