Velvet, help and advice from lessons learned, PLEASE??

[ReeferinTX]

Well, we have a velvet epidemic unfortunately. We have lost half of our small population so far and have the remaining 3 in QT with Copper (Cupramine is all we could get overnight). We have lost a Scopas Tang, Blue Tang and an Oscellaris Clown (surprising because there were no symptoms and with the clown Friday night and it was gone in the am). We have a Foxface, Paddlefin Wrasse and the other clown in the hospital right now.

Background: We started very slowly, cycling empty for 9 weeks using Dr. Tim's and Ammonium Chloride until the biofilter was strong and healthy. We did a lot of research and visited a lot of LFS until we were comfortable with one. I wanted to stay with a single source that quarantines all incoming livestock. We had a good comfort level (until now, and its not because of the outbreak).
Week one, we added the Foxface first (in hindsight probably a mistake because of how social they are and are much less stressed with more fish, they're certainly not solitary).
Week two, we added the Scopas Tang and Paddelfin Wrasse (the wrasse is just a bull in a china shop BTW).
Week three, we added the Blue Tang and two paired Oscellaris Clowns (this was October 13th).

We were not prepared for week seven. Since we were using a LFS with a quarantine program, we thought we were safe adding fish directly into the DT. We did not have a QT/hospital tank set up at the time, again unprepared and lesson well learned at the expense of 3 fish (devastating really as we are avid scuba divers and marine conservationists).
31 days after adding the last additions my wife calls and sends pics of the Scopas with spots, there were not many so I thought we were looking at Ich, well, turns out I was wrong as the Scopas was dead the next morning with the Blue Tang and one of the Clowns 24 to 36 hours later.
We did the 5-minute freshwater dip with the survivors to this point and they are in the QT (hastily set up) dosing with copper (CUPRAMINE, the best we could do on short notice). We could not get Acriflavine or Formaline for the 90-minute bath in the timely manner needed, so we are hoping for the best. We are not using a light in the QT for now. The wrasse, after being a constant swimmer is just laying on the bottom of the QT, I don't expect it to last too much longer.

There are so many posts, so I hate to add another, but I'm just trying to cut to the chase, my head is swimming from the over-information. A few questions...
- Why would the outbreak present itself a month after the last addition? What takes so long? I mean I was about to add more fish after giving the Blue Tang a month to acclimate.
- We seeded the QT with a bag of bio media stored in the sump of the DT (at least I was planning for that part of it). Should we remove that from the QT, Could it bring parasites for the DT to the QT?
- How long until we are out of the woods with the survivors?
- Is velvet an infestation that can disappear for a few weeks and come back? From what I have read, I assume the copper will kill everything that is not already attached to the fish and they just need to fight through what is currently present.
- There are widely ranging opinions on fallow period for he display tank... Any suggestions from experience?
- We wanted to get the fish stocked before adding corals and inverts, so the DT now has no livestock. Should I dose the display and sump with Copper?
- I think I read the copper will kill the nitrifying bacteria, what will it do to the sand and rock, will it leave residue down the road or will adding the carbon bags back to the sump be enough to take the copper out after the fallow period?
- Should I just empty the tank and sump and start over? We have nothing else in there currently. If so, how should I clean everything to make sure we are parasite free upon restart (I would assume they cant live outside of water for THAT long...)?

 

[MnFish1]

- How long until we are out of the woods with the survivors?

Is what you're saying is that all of the survivors in a quarantine/hospital tank and the rest of your tank is fallow? If so the going time is 60 days some do it longer. Otherwise continue to copper for 30 days, and the treat with prazipeo (assuming what you had was velvet - which to me is not completely certain - though almost certain).

- Is velvet an infestation that can disappear for a few weeks and come back? From what I have read, I assume the copper will kill everything that is not already attached to the fish and they just need to fight through what is currently present.

In general that is true. it can come back - especially if you did not use a proper fallow period, or your copper levels were off.

- There are widely ranging opinions on fallow period for he display tank... Any suggestions from experience?

60-76 days. The 76 days is likely overkill, but - when I had this issue - I left my tank fallow for 90 days just because I couldn't bear to add more fish and it gave me time to think over my potential mistakes

- We wanted to get the fish stocked before adding corals and inverts, so the DT now has no livestock. Should I dose the display and sump with Copper?

No - just leave it fallow - adding copper may limit your ability to add inverts later.

- I think I read the copper will kill the nitrifying bacteria, what will it do to the sand and rock, will it leave residue down the road or will adding the carbon bags back to the sump be enough to take the copper out after the fallow period?

I do not believe that copper has much of an effect on an established tank biofilter (edited) - and either way - I would recommend you not treating your display anyway. In your QT/hospital tank you should be monitoring ammonia, copper, etc daily.

- Should I just empty the tank and sump and start over? We have nothing else in there currently. If so, how should I clean everything to make sure we are parasite free upon restart (I would assume they cant live outside of water for THAT long...)?

No there is no reason to do this - and even if you were parasite free - you can always have them added back in - which is why a quarantine system at your house is paramount. My guess is that your LFS quarantine system may not be as long or throrough as needed. I would read through the quarantine protocol (linked at the top of the threads) and carefully plan your next steps how to avoid this in the future.

PS - again I'm not sure this was velvet - it could have been a toxin, oxygenation, ammonia issue. you may have added fish too quickly, and overstocking can rapidly allow disease to spread.

PPS Edit - I meant to ask if you had noticed any symptoms - fast breathing, odd behavior, etc. The fact that you saw spots on one fish somewhat mitigates against velvet - but I guess it could just be mucosal irritation from the infection

 

[MnFish1]

- Why would the outbreak present itself a month after the last addition? What takes so long? I mean I was about to add more fish after giving the Blue Tang a month to acclimate.

Actually this is one of the things that made me question whether it was velvet that killed your fish as compared to ich - since Ich can slowly worsen and cause a very quick death. The treatment for both ich and velvet with be the same

- We seeded the QT with a bag of bio media stored in the sump of the DT (at least I was planning for that part of it). Should we remove that from the QT, Could it bring parasites for the DT to the QT?

It can bring parasites - however the copper will Kell them. If the biomedia is not inert (i.e. plastic etc) - it may make your copper levels a little more difficult to control. However as long as you're keeping that at 2.2 or so you should be fine.

- How long until we are out of the woods with the survivors?

The treatment period is 30 days (with copper) - followed by 2 doses of prazipro 8 days apart, then some people observe for 2 weeks after that - and by the time thats done - its about 60 days - and your fallow period is over

 

[Tamberav]

The problem is anyone can say they "quarantine" something, but what does that mean? It could mean anything... some online venders use the word "quarantine for 7 days" but 7 days isn't long enough, they really should just say they are "held" or "conditioned" for 7 days...

They could say they use copper but at what dosage? how is it maintained? how often is it tested? are new fish added mid quarantine? Because if so... we just broke protocol.

I know of a few LFS that do proper QT but they QT the fish for 30 days in theraputic copper and treat with prazipro and all fish are treated in a entirely separate room to limit transition, and only once the full treatment is done and they look good with no other issues or feeding problems, then they are moved to the separate system on the sale floor. They only do 1 batch of fish at a time so nothing is added mid quarentine. They even had separate tanks for people who return or trade in fish. That way they can still offer to take fish from people but not contaminate their other tanks. All captive bred livestock is also separate in another area.

As you can see it is quite a process and most LFS don't do it right because of the cost/time/space.

 

[ReeferinTX]

60-76 days. The 76 days is likely overkill, but - when I had this issue - I left my tank fallow for 90 days just because I couldn't bear to add more fish and it gave me time to think over my potential mistakes

Thanks, understood.

Is what you're saying is that all of the survivors in a quarantine/hospital tank and the rest of your tank is fallow?

Yes, that is correct.

No - just leave it fallow - adding copper may limit your ability to add inverts later.

Got it.

No there is no reason to do this - and even if you were parasite free - you can always have them added back in - which is why a quarantine system at your house is paramount. My guess is that your LFS quarantine system may not be as long or throrough as needed. I would read through the quarantine protocol (linked at the top of the threads) and carefully plan your next steps how to avoid this in the future.

Agreed. Lesson learned for sure.

PS - again I'm not sure this was velvet - it could have been a toxin, oxygenation, ammonia issue. you may have added fish too quickly, and overstocking can rapidly allow disease to spread.

Since we started adding livestock, I have need diligent about checking ammonia and nutrients to monitor the status of the bio filter and assure we are not adding stock to quickly.
Ammonia has never been above 0.08 ppm since adding livestock, Nitrites are 0.0 ppb and Nitrates have not been higher than 0.7 ppm (I use a Hanna marine master).

PPS Edit - I meant to ask if you had noticed any symptoms - fast breathing, odd behavior, etc. The fact that you saw spots on one fish somewhat mitigates against velvet - but I guess it could just be mucosal irritation from the infection

Yes, the Scopas was swimming into the flow pump and hard breathing. We observed a few spots on the Foxface and I think the timing was right, it looks fine right now. The clown that we found dean yesterday had no symptoms in the evening and was lying on the bottom in the am. The wrasse was covered in spots as well as swimming into the flow pump and rubbing on the rock work. The Blue tang looked OK, although we could tell something wasn't right as it was swimming into the glass and rockwork; we left the house to watch that stupid Tyson fight with friends and by the time we returned it was was covered in white splotches and was dead. After everything I've read, I'm pretty confident its Velvet.
BTW the wrasse is gone as of a few moments ago. The Foxface and Clown look to be hanging in still.
Thanks for your responses. It's appreciated.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks, understood.

Yes, that is correct.

Got it.

Agreed. Lesson learned for sure.

Since we started adding livestock, I have need diligent about checking ammonia and nutrients to monitor the status of the bio filter and assure we are not adding stock to quickly.
Ammonia has never been above 0.08 ppm since adding livestock, Nitrites are 0.0 ppb and Nitrates have not been higher than 0.7 ppm (I use a Hanna marine master).

Yes, the Scopas was swimming into the flow pump and hard breathing. We observed a few spots on the Foxface and I think the timing was right, it looks fine right now. The clown that we found dean yesterday had no symptoms in the evening and was lying on the bottom in the am. The wrasse was covered in spots as well as swimming into the flow pump and rubbing on the rock work. The Blue tang looked OK, although we could tell something wasn't right as it was swimming into the glass and rockwork; we left the house to watch that stupid Tyson fight with friends and by the time we returned it was was covered in white splotches and was dead. After everything I've read, I'm pretty confident its Velvet.
BTW the wrasse is gone as of a few moments ago. The Foxface and Clown look to be hanging in still.
Thanks for your responses. It's appreciated.

Usually with velvet you will not see much of any spots before death - except the behavioral issues already mentioned. Anything affecting the gills can cause the fish to swim towards the powerhead. Either way, whether velvet or ich, the treatment etc will be the same. Good luck with your fish/tnak

 

[Tamberav]

It is quite possible you had both ich and velvet.

Do you have a copper test kit? Cupramin has a smaller threshold between therapeutic and toxic and you definitely don't want to be sub therapeutic and have the disease return once removed from QT.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Well, we have a velvet epidemic unfortunately. We have lost half of our small population so far and have the remaining 3 in QT with Copper (Cupramine is all we could get overnight). We have lost a Scopas Tang, Blue Tang and an Oscellaris Clown (surprising because there were no symptoms and with the clown Friday night and it was gone in the am). We have a Foxface, Paddlefin Wrasse and the other clown in the hospital right now.

Background: We started very slowly, cycling empty for 9 weeks using Dr. Tim's and Ammonium Chloride until the biofilter was strong and healthy. We did a lot of research and visited a lot of LFS until we were comfortable with one. I wanted to stay with a single source that quarantines all incoming livestock. We had a good comfort level (until now, and its not because of the outbreak).
Week one, we added the Foxface first (in hindsight probably a mistake because of how social they are and are much less stressed with more fish, they're certainly not solitary).
Week two, we added the Scopas Tang and Paddelfin Wrasse (the wrasse is just a bull in a china shop BTW).
Week three, we added the Blue Tang and two paired Oscellaris Clowns (this was October 13th).

We were not prepared for week seven. Since we were using a LFS with a quarantine program, we thought we were safe adding fish directly into the DT. We did not have a QT/hospital tank set up at the time, again unprepared and lesson well learned at the expense of 3 fish (devastating really as we are avid scuba divers and marine conservationists).
31 days after adding the last additions my wife calls and sends pics of the Scopas with spots, there were not many so I thought we were looking at Ich, well, turns out I was wrong as the Scopas was dead the next morning with the Blue Tang and one of the Clowns 24 to 36 hours later.
We did the 5-minute freshwater dip with the survivors to this point and they are in the QT (hastily set up) dosing with copper (CUPRAMINE, the best we could do on short notice). We could not get Acriflavine or Formaline for the 90-minute bath in the timely manner needed, so we are hoping for the best. We are not using a light in the QT for now. The wrasse, after being a constant swimmer is just laying on the bottom of the QT, I don't expect it to last too much longer.

There are so many posts, so I hate to add another, but I'm just trying to cut to the chase, my head is swimming from the over-information. A few questions...
- Why would the outbreak present itself a month after the last addition? What takes so long? I mean I was about to add more fish after giving the Blue Tang a month to acclimate.
- We seeded the QT with a bag of bio media stored in the sump of the DT (at least I was planning for that part of it). Should we remove that from the QT, Could it bring parasites for the DT to the QT?
- How long until we are out of the woods with the survivors?
- Is velvet an infestation that can disappear for a few weeks and come back? From what I have read, I assume the copper will kill everything that is not already attached to the fish and they just need to fight through what is currently present.
- There are widely ranging opinions on fallow period for he display tank... Any suggestions from experience?
- We wanted to get the fish stocked before adding corals and inverts, so the DT now has no livestock. Should I dose the display and sump with Copper?
- I think I read the copper will kill the nitrifying bacteria, what will it do to the sand and rock, will it leave residue down the road or will adding the carbon bags back to the sump be enough to take the copper out after the fallow period?
- Should I just empty the tank and sump and start over? We have nothing else in there currently. If so, how should I clean everything to make sure we are parasite free upon restart (I would assume they cant live outside of water for THAT long...)?

Please describe in detail signs you saw. There are some behaviors you will see such as fish will scratch body against hard objects, lethargic behavior, Loss of appetite and weight loss, Rapid, labored breathing, Fins clamped against the body, and typically stay at the surface of the water, or remain in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium.
Ich always shows spots at first. They are less visible in some species, and long term, the spots coalesce into mucus, but it is never seen in just the gills. After flukes, bacterial gill disease is probably the second most common of these symptoms. Velvet is purely a gill disease and does stop fish from eating, but the fish breath really fast.
Cuprion/cupramine is tricky to use, and is toxic if you don’t dose it just right. How are you measuring the copper level and at what level were you dosing?

 

[MnFish1]

Please describe in detail signs you saw. There are some behaviors you will see such as fish will scratch body against hard objects, lethargic behavior, Loss of appetite and weight loss, Rapid, labored breathing, Fins clamped against the body, and typically stay at the surface of the water, or remain in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium.
Ich always shows spots at first. They are less visible in some species, and long term, the spots coalesce into mucus, but it is never seen in just the gills. After flukes, bacterial gill disease is probably the second most common of these symptoms. Velvet is purely a gill disease and does stop fish from eating, but the fish breath really fast.
Cuprion/cupramine is tricky to use, and is toxic if you don’t dose it just right. How are you measuring the copper level and at what level were you dosing?

Correct ich is less likely to just affect the gills - however, IF there are spots on the fish (as this person has - at least some of them) - swimming to the powerhead becomes less of a diagnostic criteria

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thanks, understood.

Yes, that is correct.

Got it.

Agreed. Lesson learned for sure.

Since we started adding livestock, I have need diligent about checking ammonia and nutrients to monitor the status of the bio filter and assure we are not adding stock to quickly.
Ammonia has never been above 0.08 ppm since adding livestock, Nitrites are 0.0 ppb and Nitrates have not been higher than 0.7 ppm (I use a Hanna marine master).

Yes, the Scopas was swimming into the flow pump and hard breathing. We observed a few spots on the Foxface and I think the timing was right, it looks fine right now. The clown that we found dean yesterday had no symptoms in the evening and was lying on the bottom in the am. The wrasse was covered in spots as well as swimming into the flow pump and rubbing on the rock work. The Blue tang looked OK, although we could tell something wasn't right as it was swimming into the glass and rockwork; we left the house to watch that stupid Tyson fight with friends and by the time we returned it was was covered in white splotches and was dead. After everything I've read, I'm pretty confident its Velvet.
BTW the wrasse is gone as of a few moments ago. The Foxface and Clown look to be hanging in still.
Thanks for your responses. It's appreciated.

Looks like the fish medics have you pointed in the right direction here. I hate to be a "Debbie Downer", but generally, when fish in a group begin dying from a protozoan disease, even the proper treatment may not help in time. It can take up to 3 days for copper to work, and the fish simply may not have that much time.

Can you get a video of the remaining two fish?

 

[ReeferinTX]

Cuprion/cupramine is tricky to use, and is toxic if you don’t dose it just right. How are you measuring the copper level and at what level were you dosing?

We have a a Hanna copper tester now, late in delivery.
I see in places the therapeutic level for copper is 2.0 - 2.2. However the Cupramine bottle says 0.6 is "standard" and 0.8 can be is toxic. We are hovering at 0.48 - 0.5 ppm Copper on the Hanna Chlorimeter in a bare bottom 10 gal. QT tank currently without lights. Nutrients and Ammonia are good. Looking at Seachem's instructions, I think we will maintain and stick to their regimen, seems to be OK right now.
The Foxface and remaining Clown seem to be doing good and are eating very well each day, although the Foxface's color is still mottled hasn't regained his yellow (stress and only 1 tankmate not doubt not helping).
I'll try to get a video later.

 

[vetteguy53081]

We have a a Hanna copper tester now, late in delivery.
I see in places the therapeutic level for copper is 2.0 - 2.2. However the Cupramine bottle says 0.6 is "standard" and 0.8 can be is toxic. We are hovering at 0.48 - 0.5 ppm Copper on the Hanna Chlorimeter in a bare bottom 10 gal. QT tank currently without lights. Nutrients and Ammonia are good. Looking at Seachem's instructions, I think we will maintain and stick to their regimen, seems to be OK right now.
The Foxface and remaining Clown seem to be doing good and are eating very well each day, although the Foxface's color is still mottled hasn't regained his yellow (stress and only 1 tankmate not doubt not helping).
I'll try to get a video later.

Stay there with cupramine. Cupramine is ionic version and more potent and recommended max of .5. I like .45
For Coppersafe which is Chelated version, it Starts to work at 2.0 but best is at 2.25 and either for at least 30 days.
Monitor ammonia levels with QT tank with a reliable kit and I always suggest increasing Oxygen with an air stone

 

[ReeferinTX]

Well, it looks like we made it through with the Foxface and Clown surviving.
DT has been fallow for over 60 days and we are considering adding our two miracle fish back in and starting over with a QT regimen for new friends without exception.
The QT regimen will be 30 days in therapeutic Copper (I guess Coppersafe) maintained at 2.0 - 2.25 PPM. Should we dose the Prazipro at the end of a QT for new livestock, or is that more of a treatment for already infected livestock?