Waste Away: Is it really bacterial? Or chemical? What does it do?

[wackyreefer]

WasteAway probably has nothing to do with the PO4 depletion.

This viewpoint is based on experiments (Inspired by @taricha ) I ran in which WA, added at the recommended dose to a sample of aquarium water, showed no signs of growth after 5 days.

I agree. So could it of played a part? Maybe only partially. Was it solely responsible for that depletion? No, I agree it alone was not.

However, it's the second part of my post I was interested in getting some views on. And to be clear I was not asking if WasteAway works or not (Zerobytes).

I was specifically asking, consideration the zero nutrient environment dino's usually establish in and thrive on, is WatseAway the right product to combat Dino's considering it has clear marketing stating reduction of no3 and po4 which ultimately in a already low nutrient environment will just help further to create a environment for dino's to thrive. This just puzzled me and happy for someone to a) Tell me I am stupid for worrying about that due to facts x, y and Z or b) Maybe WasteAway is not the right product to fight dinos? I have no idea hence I am asking

 

[salty150]

WasteAway probably has nothing to do with the PO4 depletion.

This viewpoint is based on experiments (Inspired by @taricha ) I ran in which WA, added at the recommended dose to a sample of aquarium water, showed no signs of growth after 5 days.

Enough of this ... pseudo "science"...

The guy just stated that "within hours" after he dosed WA his PO4 "plummeted to zero"...

Others have said the same thing - that after dosing WA they get a reduction in PO4... and NO3...

And many have said that WA cleans their sand - which is what it is supposed to do.

Then there are videos that show how well it works, like this one:

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Enough of this ... pseudo "science"...

lol

FWIW, a one off anecdote is not science.

Trying to understand why some folks get different results than others is a useful discussion.

 

[Dan_P]

Enough of this ... pseudo "science"...

The guy just stated that "within hours" after he dosed WA his PO4 "plummeted to zero"...

Others have said the same thing - that after dosing WA they get a reduction in PO4... and NO3...

And many have said that WA cleans their sand - which is what it is supposed to do.

Then there are videos that show how well it works, like this one:

Science fact is not established by a certain amount of anecdotal data, product advertisement or the results of uncontrolled experiments.

Anyone can test and verify the controlled experiment that I have conducted many times and they will find that adding WasteAway to a sample of aquarium water will never lower PO4 or NO3 over a several hours. Not even Dr. Tim makes that claim.

My experiment results definitely do not challenge product claims made by Dr. Tim nor observations made by other posters. These results do cast doubt on the the notion that WasteAway can quickly deplete PO4 or NO3 in aquarium water.

 

[Dan_P]

I agree. So could it of played a part? Maybe only partially. Was it solely responsible for that depletion? No, I agree it alone was not.

However, it's the second part of my post I was interested in getting some views on. And to be clear I was not asking if WasteAway works or not (Zerobytes).

I was specifically asking, consideration the zero nutrient environment dino's usually establish in and thrive on, is WatseAway the right product to combat Dino's considering it has clear marketing stating reduction of no3 and po4 which ultimately in a already low nutrient environment will just help further to create a environment for dino's to thrive. This just puzzled me and happy for someone to a) Tell me I am stupid for worrying about that due to facts x, y and Z or b) Maybe WasteAway is not the right product to fight dinos? I have no idea hence I am asking

Since we don’t have the data behind the claim that WasteAway reduces PO4 and NO3, we can guess either that it means that adding WA bacteria results in the depletion of the current NO3 and PO4 molecules or that it means adding WA bacteria results in the depletion of organic matter containing N and P that would have become NO3 and PO4 if left untreated. If the former is true, we might not want to fight Dinos with it. If the latter Is true, the product might or might not be effective against Dinos.

What you might not be considering is that your aquarium already has the bacteria capable of performing both claims

 

[DrTim]

Hello Wackyreefer:

Here is how the process we recommend works and what role Waste-Aways plays.
In our experience a dark phase is critical to getting rid of Dinos because their growth rate is drastically reduced in the dark.
Combine the dark phase with Re-Fresh, which has been found to even further stress the Dinos, for 3 days and you end up killing a lot of the Dino.
But you have to get rid of that newly formed dead organic material because organisms will feed on it and the Dino will feed on those organisms so the Dino infestation will just come back.
This is where the Waste-Away comes in - the Waste-Away bacteria degrade the organic material taking away a food source for the Dinos.
This is a short-term fix. It cleans the system up but long-term the aquarist needs to raise their nitrate and phosphate levels or the Dinos will come back as organics accumulate.

 

[wackyreefer]

Hello Wackyreefer:

Here is how the process we recommend works and what role Waste-Aways plays.
In our experience a dark phase is critical to getting rid of Dinos because their growth rate is drastically reduced in the dark.
Combine the dark phase with Re-Fresh, which has been found to even further stress the Dinos, for 3 days and you end up killing a lot of the Dino.
But you have to get rid of that newly formed dead organic material because organisms will feed on it and the Dino will feed on those organisms so the Dino infestation will just come back.
This is where the Waste-Away comes in - the Waste-Away bacteria degrade the organic material taking away a food source for the Dinos.
This is a short-term fix. It cleans the system up but long-term the aquarist needs to raise their nitrate and phosphate levels or the Dinos will come back as organics accumulate.

Thanks for taking the time to respond DrTim.
So WA specifically in the case of Dinoflagellates is an enhancer / tool to help restore the balance after the massive die off of a 3 day dark period. Where the bacteria created through WA helps break down the dead organic material. This makes a lot of sense.

I can see how WA works in a high nutrient environment and there are more than enough accounts and proof that it works very well for that, no question. I was merely trying to understand WA's role in fighting Dinoflagellates in a low nutrient environment and this answers my question.

Thanks

 

[DrTim]

You're welcome

 

[Zerobytes]

I agree. So could it of played a part? Maybe only partially. Was it solely responsible for that depletion? No, I agree it alone was not.

However, it's the second part of my post I was interested in getting some views on. And to be clear I was not asking if WasteAway works or not (Zerobytes).

I was specifically asking, consideration the zero nutrient environment dino's usually establish in and thrive on, is WatseAway the right product to combat Dino's considering it has clear marketing stating reduction of no3 and po4 which ultimately in a already low nutrient environment will just help further to create a environment for dino's to thrive. This just puzzled me and happy for someone to a) Tell me I am stupid for worrying about that due to facts x, y and Z or b) Maybe WasteAway is not the right product to fight dinos? I have no idea hence I am asking

Well I was just say I did not get a large reduction In either. So if that is the premise I didn’t see it.

 

[wackyreefer]

Well I was just say I did not get a large reduction In either. So if that is the premise I didn’t see it.

OK cool. So you didn't see a reduction as I did. Well if I did, and you did not then perhaps its working as marketed (reducing no3 and po4) for some and not for other, or perhaps it depends on the environment (each aquarium is different) and there are other parameters to consider. Who knows...

Either way Dr Tim answered my actual question which was what role it actively plays, specifically when trying to remove dinoflagellates.

I will leave the debates about whether it works as marketed or not up to the experts ;Bookworm

 

[wackyreefer]

Probably a good idea, since you seem to be missing the point of the thread: how and when it works, not the overly simplistic idea of whether it ever works.

Hi Randy. I did not challenge anything being said in this thread, nor challenging the product scientifically, with no grounds to base my opinion on beyond trying it out, and I stated this upfront.

I found this to be a great thread / read and thought it would be a fitting time and place to ask my question around dinos (which you helped me identify - thanks!) and whether its actually useful in fighting dinos when so many stores market it for that purpose, considering the discussion at the time around nutrient reduction (or lack thereof - which ever).

Now I was at the end merely responding to zero's back and forth and didn't mean to derail here so feel free to delete my posts if this is causing strife as that was not the intention.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi Randy. I did not challenge anything being said in this thread, nor challenging the product scientifically, with no grounds to base my opinion on beyond trying it out, and I stated this upfront.

I found this to be a great thread / read and thought it would be a fitting time and place to ask my question around dinos (which you helped me identify - thanks!) and whether its actually useful in fighting dinos when so many stores market it for that purpose, considering the discussion at the time around nutrient reduction (or lack thereof - which ever).

Now I was at the end merely responding to zero's back and forth and didn't mean to derail here so feel free to delete my posts if this is causing strife as that was not the intention.

Sorry, I deleted my post right after posting it because I thought it was too harsh and unnecessary. I guess you hit reply before I deleted it.

 

[wackyreefer]

Sorry, I deleted my post right after posting it because I thought it was too harsh and unnecessary. I guess you hit reply before I deleted it.

No problem Randy. All good. No harm, no foul.

I would delete my response but doesn't look like I can from the mobile version. Have to check the web one but might need it to be deleted by one of you.

 

[taricha]

For those following this thread - here's a continuation of the discussion, with significant updates.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/looking-for-the-magic-in-bottled-bacteria-and-in-our-tanks.754054/

Thread is showing the bottled bacteria are viable, and can measurably activate and grow under some circumstances, and sometimes they probably don't. It also extends the topic beyond Waste Away to other bottle bacteria products made for digesting uneaten food, waste, organics, films and nameless grunge.

 

[GrimReefer51]

Would it be unwise to use Waste Away right after cycling? Phosphates are .50 and want to bring them down.

 

[Dan_P]

Would it be unwise to use Waste Away right after cycling? Phosphates are .50 and want to bring them down.

Not a useful solution. Bacteria products in general seem to be useless at phosphate reduction.

 

[Big E]

Would it be unwise to use Waste Away right after cycling? Phosphates are .50 and want to bring them down.

Put your P04 test kit away for 6 months at least. Let the biology of the tank takes it course on it's own.

 

[salty150]

Would it be unwise to use Waste Away right after cycling? Phosphates are .50 and want to bring them down.

I'm not sure about phosphate reduction right after a cycle using Waste Away...

But I am pretty sure Dr. Tim recommends to start using the Waste Away gel packs that slowly release Waste Away over a 30 day period right after cycling...?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure about phosphate reduction right after a cycle using Waste Away...

But I am pretty sure Dr. Tim recommends to start using the Waste Away gel packs that slowly release Waste Away over a 30 day period right after cycling...?

Sounds like a good way to transfer money to Tim without doing a whole lot for a typical reef tank. lol