Waterchanges might be a farce

[92Miata]

This thread is hilarious.

Phyto is grown in salt water.

If you're adding it regularly, and not doing water changes you're either going to have runaway salinity, or you're significantly increasing the water youre pulling out through your skimmer.

IE, you're literally doing water changes.

 

[shred5]

I been keeping reefs 30 + years and saltwater longer. I feel water changes do allot of good.

I do not think water changes need to be done to add any elements because that can be handled by dosing.

Coral allelopathy and if you have a refugium algae allelopathy concern me . We have no idea how to remove them. It has been suggested maybe carbon can remove some but has never been tested. It has been suggested UV might neutralize them.
These could build up eventually and cause issues? Possibly. Allelopathy cant not be tested for that I know of with any of the icp tests..

Also adding a broad spectrum additive or two part has how many major and minor trace element in them? We have no idea how much a coral can use up and in what ratio of these trace elements, not only that it could depend on how many corals you have. So some of those elements can build up over time and maybe become toxic? Some of them might even bind to other things for a while. Doing water changes may keep these elements in balance? Most of these can be tested for nowadays with a icp test so maybe less of a issue for some.

The other thing is I bet some people change more water than they think. I know my one tanks skimmer takes about 1/2 a gallon of water out of the tank a week. That needs to be replaced and is it not a water change?

I hear allot of people that make it a year and a half without a water change some times a little more but most of those people eventually are out of the hobby and we never hear from again and why was that? How long you can go would depend on maintenance, amount of corals, amount of stuff you dump in etc.
Long term success is measured in years.


I do not know the answer but I still feel they are necessary or at the minimum beneficial. I am still in the hobby and most are not anymore. I do not even think the average reefer makes it 5 years anymore let alone one tank for 5 years.

 

[User1]

It will come down to each hobbyists and how their total system is designed and maintained. It really is that simple. I think the second or third post alluded to it that water changes pull out what builds up and adds in what is used up. True to a point. You can add in what is used up hence the additive based solutions such as zevoit, dsr, triton, and similar balling methods. Hobbyists can add back in what is used so no water change is necessary.

However, we still have the so called build up of something or stuff over time and that is usually the question on how to deal with, manage, or mitigate. That is why I said true to a point because I do not know at what point that stuff becomes a problem. If at all.

So I sort of keep it simple. If the system is designed for little or no water changes then it will work. However if it isn't and one tries to force it then it usually doesn't end up well. Just how I see it. No different than turning off a skimmer....

 

[Pete Witteried]

I did a 5g water change yesterday on a 100ish gallon system. There was 1” of detritus in the bottom of the jug when I was done. How else does that get removed if I wasn’t doing water changes?

You can run your siphon hose to a filter sock in your sump instead of an external container.

 

[TriggerFinger]

You can run your siphon hose to a filter sock in your sump instead of an external container.

I do that periodically, a water change was needed so I just got it all out at once :)

 

[mattdg]

I've tried the route of no water changes. It can work for a time. Just remember that each system is very different. You may have one tank that thrives on no WC and another that demands weekly water changes to remain stable. For the most part, unless you have a method to constantly monitor (daily/weekly) all of the major and minor trace along with the junk (heavy metals and pollutants) that build up over time, with a plan to add/export in precise amounts, it is not a long term solution. As far as I can tell, no one has been able to design a perfect NO WC method yet, not even the systems utilizing monthly ICP tests. If someone has done this for a number of years, on a SPS mixed reef, I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

One thing you will find plenty evidence to support, is that those who perform automatic water changes, experience very regular success and spend far less in supplements and additional equipment, in the long run.

 

[Reef Nutrition]

Our Phyto-Feast Live has a 3 month shelf-life and is alive and viable during this time period.

 

[ZoWhat]

Once again.... as the OP.... Im not advocating never ever doing WCs. That's ridiculous.

I'm advocating that regularly scheduled WCs 1-2x a month miiiiiight be like showing up to a college tailgate party in a tuxedo....

Again I do big 90/100g WCs from my sump to clean it dry 3x a year.

Here's some proof about dosing Phyto. Ever since dosing phyto my UtterChaos' are the size of 5cent nickles.... just sayin'

 

[MixedFruitBasket]

In some mild researching, I'm reading how dosing the strain of Blue-Green Phytoplankton OUTCOMPETES nuisance algae and makes for a more balanced tank.
.

I apologize if this has already been mentioned. Isn't blue green algae Cyanobacteria? And isn't cyno toxic?

 

[BeltedCoyote]

I apologize if this has already been mentioned. Isn't blue green algae Cyanobacteria? And isn't cyno toxic?

Phyto, to my understanding, is different than Cyano. Phyto is actually an algae where as Cyano, while it gets treated as an algae, is actually a bacteria. And I think it comes in red and brown? Not an expert. But yeah phyto algae and Cyano are different organisms

phyto is what is in the water and the base of the food chain we’re trying to reproduce. Cyano is a bacteria that occurs as reef tank ecosystems establish themselves

 

[MixedFruitBasket]

Yes, but I am pretty sure when something is labeled "blue-green algae" it is actually Cyanobacteria. It's sold in the health food section. Which I scratch my head about considering when they have these algae blooms in lakes and ponds it can kill animals that drink or swim in it.

I'm going to assume it's how it's produced that prevents whatever poisons from forming.

Here are a couple of interesting papers. http://snobear.colorado.edu/Markw/BioMath/Algae/algae.pdf

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jmb/2012/259571/

They support the OP's observations of a healthy eco system.

P.s. Second paper talks about it also inhibiting coral growth. But not sure if that's species specific.

 

[MixedFruitBasket]

"Cyanobacteria are generally considered to be a poor food source due to toxicity, low nutritional value, or a morphology that makes ingestion difficult. Despite these factors, there are grazers that are adapted to feeding on cyanobacteria [55]." L. Charpy,1 B. E. Casareto,2 M. J. Langlade,1 and Y. Suzuki2

Does anyone know if zoas specialize in consuming them. Would be interesting to find out.

 

[AquaArtist]

I feel we change far to much water and it is counter productive. The tanks with the most tweeking and messing with are the ones that crash the most.
I change about 20% of my water maybe 4 or 5 times a year and have been doing that or less for fifty years.

No problems yet.

I’m my gosh I remember this tank 20 years ago when I first got into the reef side of things, wow 50 years now!!!
I think it was on Reef Central when you talked about your aquarium.
Your from up state if I remember correctly.
The bottles in your tank are from a local lake you collected them out of right???
Wow wow wow!
Keep going strong my friend!
your a legend to me.
I have had some tanks running close to 20plus years.
I hope one day I can make the claims you have.

By the way your tank looks fantastic!!!!

 

[Chessmanmark]

Counterpoint: Anthony Calfo ran a successful coral propagation business out of a greenhouse that utilized strictly water changes.

Don’t cut corners on water changes. Yes, tanks can run without them but you need to tweak a ton of variables. Water changes are time tested and simple.

 

[Ippyroy]

Well you already said the key word . Profit. Profit is a monetary benefit no matter how small or big. It it wasn't a monetary benefit it wouldn't be profitable. You surely don't think they sell it just to keep you happy and are losing money on it? If they do they're fools. LFS is just one example. There are big players like BRS and marine depot

BRS and MarineDepot lose money on salt. It costs too much to ship and look at how many buckets are destroyed during shipment. Salt is not a highly profitable item.

 

[rmurken]

Well I came from the FW world where skimming isn’t a thing (despite what the internet says) and denitrification is impractical for most systems. So WC’s are a habit from that.

I’m relatively new to reefing, but the thing that occurs to me is that closed reef systems are not static, and no export means is perfect. So stuff—metals, sulfides, etc.—necessarily build up over time. Detritus will build up too, and feed all kinds of nuisance flora.

Also, replacing stuff beyond Ca, Alk, and Mg relies on iffy consumer tests. So if nothing else, the water chemistry of a tank will gradually get “banged up”—Mg gets high or low; sulfate, chloride, sodium get out of whack from two-part. Critters eat all the strontium, iodine, and unobtainium...whatever. Attempts to replace seem bound to be imperfect over time.

So IMO a modest regular WC just helps with stability and is insurance against drift in the water chemistry.

I’m a committed every week person, but I definitely believe those who find less often works well.

Also believe the non-WC folks. Hats off to you. Gutsy!

 

[Snoopdog]

I am surprised its still even debated, since I think everyone agrees detritus/waste needs to be removed and elements need to be repleted.

But are there not things that eat detritus? In a natural ocean environment there is not some giant of a person with a siphon hose pulling the water out of the ocean dropping the water on to mars. If we are trying to indeed mimic a natural environment as close as possible (I am), then we need to rethink our process. I am glad these conversations come back up from time to time, it is healthy to reevaluate. Just because we have been doing regular water changes all these years does not mean that the thought process was right. I like hearing from all of the old salts like #paulB, they have been doing this for a long time and there is value in their wisdom.

I am still in the occasional water change club, but with a busy schedule it is hard to keep it consistent. Water changes are kind of like hitting reset on your tank. I may one day setup a test tank to see how long I can go without a water change.

 

[Paul B]

Aqua artist, Thank you. I live on eastern Long Island but 20 years ago I lived on western Long Island.
Most of those bottles, I think there are 9 of them in my tank someplace, I collected Diving in the Long Island Sound. Some of them are from the 60s.

You are doing very well if you have some tanks running for 20 years. Many people can't get them running for 20 weeks. :)

 

[Timfish]

Do you really think you can keep a coral or a reef system for it's normal life expectancy without water changes?

But what about the bacteria, sponges, archea, protists, fungii and phages?

And what about the various Labile and refractory DOCs, particularly the Dissolved Combined Neutral Sugars (DCNS) that promote pathogenic bacterial shifts in the coral holobiont?

(for those who want to learn more about DOC, bacteria and corals start with Forest Rohwer's Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas.)

My background:

Started keeping saltwater in '87. Was lucky to bump into two aquarists in '91 who had been keeping saltwater since the mid 70's who mentored me. As I learned it, water changes are needed to reduce all the various waste products, not just nitrates and phosphates. Three givens then were, there is a lot of stuff we can't test for, skimmers only remove hydrophobic stuff and leave hydrophilllic stuff behind and even GAC likely won't grab everything.

In '97 ,a couple years after I started my aquarium maintenenace business I had a very short but seminal conversation with a Dr. Mary Jane Ashby, Ph.D RN, director of an infectious disease department of a local hospital about bacteria. Gist of it was whether a bacteria was "good" or "bad" depended largely on whether it was thriving where it was supposed to be or thriving where it wasn't supposed to be. (I didn't learn of Paul B's posts about bacteria until a few years ago but he's been saying something similar.) Along with what I was seeing in my tanks I shifted from thinking strictly nutrients and nutrient export to holistically about bacteria thinking of a reef system as a single entity. WHile testing for bacteria is just now becoming available (See AquaBiomic's posts) one simple thing I realized then I could do that help significantly at times was use water from a "Healthy" reef system to help a reef system that was having problems. It seemed obvious even then other bacteria than those involved in nitrification and denitrification were a factor in a healthy reef ecosystem.

. . . So religious Waterchanger ppl might say "What about nitrate/Phosphate control? You gotta change your water every 2 weeks!"

In some mild researching, I'm reading how dosing the strain of Blue-Green Phytoplankton OUTCOMPETES nuisance algae and makes for a more balanced tank.

I'm reeeeally starting to think regular waterchanges is dumping good biochemical water down the drain that worked so hard to achieve a balance.

If I can control my NO3 and PO4 thru heavy skimming, dosing phytoplankton .... why would I do a waterchange UNLESS smthg like Calcium or Carbonate or Magnesium was off?

And if I can dose major and minor elements to keep them within range...AND my no3/po4 are in check... why do a waterchange? . . .

There is now huge amounts of research showing to bacteria are critical. It doesn't matter if it's sustainable farming, a healthy natural ecosystem or our own physical and mental health the proper balance of microbial life is essential. Additionally, the research done with nitrogen and phosphates make it clear to me we need to look at totals in a system, organic, inorganic and particulate carbon, organic and inorganic and particulate nitrogen as well as organic and inorganic and particulate phosphorus, not just nitrates and phosphates.

Undoubtidly there are dogmatic individuals who stick to a set recomendation and decry all else as heresy but as a "Religious Water Changer" I like to do weekly water changes. And it's to reduce all waste products not just Nitrate and Phosphate. But weekly is personal prefference not some dictum or dogma. If I had to say, the number I most frequently come across or have been told is probably monthly and the volume percentage varies.

Some years I was better than other years but I've always tried to keep abreast of current research done on reefs and corals. Albiet most of the research has been with benthic algae but it is clear algae and corals have antagonistic roles on a reef system. Both are proactively manipulating the microbial processes around them to benefit themselves and there is some pretty complex biological warfare being conducted on the part of algae. Algae release labile DOC promoting heterotrophic bacteria (oxygen consuming) which includes promoting pathogenic bacteria in the coral holobiont. While coral release labile DOC promoting autotrophic bacteria (oxygen conserving).

(Ironicly the only time researchers could not find any DOC on reefs is when the system had been completely taken over by algae providing enough labile DOC for heterotrophic bacteria to completely consume the refractory portion.)

A system may have lots of coral and a minimum of algae and might be able to go a long time without water changes but without water changes refractory DOC will be building up in a system and we do not know what the consequences are when it gets to 80% or 90%. There will always be some algae releasing the types of labile DOC particularly the DCNS component which from what I've been able to determine is not removed by either activated carbon or skimming and can only be diluted by water changes.

As I see it water changes remove a certain percentage of ALL the microbial life in an ecossytem. Corals and algae exudates will help replenish the bacteria. Depending on what is dominate the bacteria populations will lean towards autotrophic bacteria species (good) or heterotrophic bacteria (bad). I expect someday we'll be able to monitor the holobiont's of the corals in our systems and say "We don't nned a water change" or "We need a water change" but we're not there yet.

And for those who want to dig into more research after reading Rohwer's book here's some links:

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/gcb.13695
Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:
http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/file/Nutrient enrichment.pdf

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmars.2015.00103/full

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X17301601?via=ihub

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022098111004588

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/214/16/2749.full

Decadal Environmental Memeory in a Coral.
https://www.academia.edu/11590694/Decadal_environmental_memory_in_a_reef_coral
Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality
Coral seperated from algae with a .02 µm filter die. Treatment with aampicillan prevents death.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1461-0248.2006.00937.x
Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).
https://peerj.com/articles/108/?utm_source=TrendMD&utm_campaign=PeerJ_TrendMD_0&utm_medium=TrendMD
Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0027973
Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
Starchs and sugars (doc) caused coral death
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps2005/294/m294p173.pdf
Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs
https://www.nature.com/articles/nmicrobiol201661
Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23303369
Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/gcb.13695
Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166445X19307192
Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton
https://www.nature.com/articles/ismej2017142
Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22944243
Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27795310
Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22957055
Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23028648
Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.
https://elifesciences.org/articles/49114.pdf
Global microbialization of coral reefs
Rohwer's DDAM Theory Proven
https://www.nature.com/articles/nmicrobiol201642
Because sponges are essential players in the carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus cycle(s) on reefs here's some links to research done with them.

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponges. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)
https://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/14555035/13completethesis.pdf
Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4191
Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges
(Chris Kenndall had a problem with low PO4 and had problems raising it with Neophos. Samples sent off showed phosphorus crystals developing in some of the sponges in his system accounting for at least some of his systems consumption.)
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/14/4381
Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals
https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1365-2435.12758
Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279061640_2013_deGoeij_Science_Sponge_loop
Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3934968/
The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.
https://search.proquest.com/openvie...9d1e5/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750&diss=y
And since we're discussing favorable and not so favorable bacteria here's a paper looking at how different corals and polyps are influencing the bacteria in the water column.
Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28828261

 

[terraincognita]

As a note.

I haven’t fully read this thread. But just in conjunction with the title.

in my 10G Nano,which is now 1 month and 3 days old.

even During the cycle I’ve never performed a water change.

i have no filtration beyond mechanical.

no Skimmer, no fuge, no nothing

just filter floss, and carbon.

Im now successfully growing SPS.

I think water changes are a substitution for not studying more about maintaining water quality.
Otherwise they are reserved for “oops.” And “uh oh’s”

;);)

Of course my post has to be the one right after señor 3 page about how us naysayers are mis-informed.

mines just opinion and experience. No documentation.