What is Causing My Cyano?

[PBnJOnWheat]

Hey guys,

I have Cyanobacteria, pretty positive, as it consistently creates mats of algae on my sand bed, rock, and corals. It’s more of a clinging issue to my zoas, urchin, and rocks. It appears red and won’t stop coming back.

I have tested my parameters to 0 nitrates, ammonia, phosphates, nitrites. Stable alkanlinity, Ca, and salinity. I have protein skimmer running along with GFO AND activated carbon. I have a “refugium” with some chaeto that I haven’t seen grow along with a kessil flora. This is a 125 gal. Setup, three AI Prime HD lights so it’s not lighting and 6k+ gph flow so whatever is feeding it is in high quantity. I have probably 10 wrasse, a pair of clowns, a blue tang, a dragon goby, a fire fish, a long spine urchin, loads and LOADS of CUC over 200+ snails from turbos to dwarf ceriths. Some crabs here and there as well.

here is where I am having trouble...

I have started with chemiclean having wiped it out but have had it return within days of successful treatment. I have done the three day blackout as well which cured it for 2-3 days but it’s back today already... phosphates and nitrates and ammonia all 0, running carbon, GFO, refugium, RO/DI water in a non leaching container. I recently took out ALL of the rock and scrubbed them clean with peroxide, toothbrushes and a pair of friends along with a 50% water change and a completely cleaned sand bed. I am also doing kalkwasser which seems to have stabilized my alk,Ca, and pH, along with slowed bacteria growth but I am not able to continue shutting my lights out for days on end as well as dose chemiclean as there are higher end corals in there. I also have dosed plenty of MB7 which also hasn’t helped as much as I thought it would. Nutrients are seemingly controlled, flow & lights are fine, everything else is stable and I have no idea what is feeding it.

only things I haven’t tried:
I haven’t dosed nitrates (unlikely but plausible) or tested for silicates as my RO/DI unit is a fountainhead water system unit 5 stage from the water hose outside the house which could be a problem since it has no TDS meter and the problem is consistent. I am looking at getting a BRS unit (reliable) in a couple weeks and some copepods for overall benefit. Possible nitrate dosing through phyto in process of feeding copepods

can’t identify the problem

Temporary solutions working, no permanent solution... HELP!!!

Tank before, and during blackout.

 

[Dr.HarlemTutu]

How old is the tank? I have had issues with a couple different tanks at the 9ish month mark. Tank age could have something to do with your issues.

 

[PBnJOnWheat]

How old is the tank? I have had issues with a couple different tanks at the 9ish month mark. Tank age could have something to do with your issues.

Yeah, it got all started and setup late August. Which would make this month the 9 month anniversary I suppose I guess you were right. Any suggestions to wait it out or change things up? I have some pretty expensive stuff in there atm and being that it’s stuff is sticking to everything, zoas, mushrooms, rock-work; what should I do from here?

 

[Idoc]

Tanks will go through cyano phases as the nutrients are out of balance with the other biodiversity. Quick scanning of your message sounds like you are almost sterilizing the system with 0 nitrates, 0 phosphates, chemiclean, GFO, peroxide scrubbing, etc... This may be your downfall in this scenario. The items you are doing are causing big fluctuations in the nutrient levels that aren't being given the opportunity to stabilize...which leads to cyano. A young tank needs these things to mature properly and go through the stages.

I've been there and tried to keep out all algaes out of my tank in the beginning...biggest mistake I made! You have created a great scenario for a dinoflagellate infestion, in my opinion. You don't want to go there, believe me! Worry less on chasing the numbers...get the nitrates and phosphates to a regular, stable number...ie: 5-10ppm NO3, 0.05-0.1ppm PO4... You can start this process by stopping the GFO...then seeing what your numbers are at. After this, then you will see where you need to dose to get these numbers where you want them to stabilize. Then, sit back and watch the tank progress...adjusting slightly as needed with CUC additions, pod additions, regular water change schedule while vacuuming the sand, etc...

 

[Dan_P]

I wonder about the genus of cyanobacteria you have. Two seem to consistently plague saltwater aquaiums: Spirula and Oscillatoria. @taricha and I have been studying Oscillatoria nutritional needs. I seem to recall him saying that Spirulina might be less susceptible to ChemiClean than Oscillatoria. He will check in and comment.

To grow large amounts of cyanobacteria so easily means there is plenty of light and food available. You simply cannot grow that much biomass without a good nitrogen and phosphorous supply. In the case of Oscillatoria, vigorous growth under laboratory conditions occurs only when organic carbon is available as fish food flakes or amino acids. We have not determined whether Oscillatoria benefitted directly from the organic matter or whether it benefitted from the bacteria consuming it, e.g., by generating ammonia. The effect is somewhat surprising after hearing so much about the importance of nitrate and phosphate for cyanobacteria growth (my Oscillatoria cultures die off with only nitrate nitrogen).

The second notion to consider is that cyanobacteria is obtaining its nutrients from the surface not from the water. There is simply not enough nitrogen and phosphorous in the water to sustain so much cyanobacteria growth.

A final idea to consider is that these cyanobacteria colonies might be self sustaining. The films and mats likely consist of multiple organisms, each benefiting from the others. For example, the photosynthetic cyanobacteria is feeding the heterotrophic community carbon, while the heterotrophs are feeding the cyanobacteria with nitrogen and phosphorous through digestion of organic waste.

Anecdotally, these cyanobacteria infections can burn themselves out, maybe because other microorganisms eventually deprive the mat of nutrition or the aquarist stops inadvertently feeding the film. For example, sick and dying macro alga can be a source of cyanobacteria nutrition (or a source of nutrition for the heterotrophs that feed cyanobacteria).

I am sorry that I have no remedies. Most aquarist get their aquarium through this infestation. A rare few don’t.

 

[taricha]

Two seem to consistently plague saltwater aquaiums: Spirula and Oscillatoria. @taricha and I have been studying Oscillatoria nutritional needs. I seem to recall him saying that Spirulina might be less susceptible to ChemiClean than Oscillatoria. He will check in and comment.

The oscillatoria vs spirulina effect of Chemiclean was something I heard claimed by a reefer who was testing cyano, I never saw any evidence and it stuck out to me because it seems a little unlikely.


I can't make out the nuisance described in the OP from the pics posted.

I have Cyanobacteria, pretty positive, as it consistently creates mats of algae on my sand bed, rock, and corals. It’s more of a clinging issue to my zoas, urchin, and rocks. It appears red and won’t stop coming back.

Can we get better pics of the problem areas under white lighting - not blues?
(Clinging to urchins and corals sounds less like cyano to me, and more like dinos.)

Did you notice any shift in appearance from before to after the chemiclean dose that knocked the stuff back then it re-surged? That's often the case in a mixed outbreak. The aquarist does something and knocks back one of multiple nuisances and something else become dominant.

That's enough speculation from me for now. Would love to see more.

 

[dwest]

Agree that your tank is ripe for a dino bloom. Trust me, you don’t want to go there. I would get nitrates and phosphates up.

 

[PBnJOnWheat]

Tanks will go through cyano phases as the nutrients are out of balance with the other biodiversity. Quick scanning of your message sounds like you are almost sterilizing the system with 0 nitrates, 0 phosphates, chemiclean, GFO, peroxide scrubbing, etc... This may be your downfall in this scenario. The items you are doing are causing big fluctuations in the nutrient levels that aren't being given the opportunity to stabilize...which leads to cyano. A young tank needs these things to mature properly and go through the stages.

I've been there and tried to keep out all algaes out of my tank in the beginning...biggest mistake I made! You have created a great scenario for a dinoflagellate infestion, in my opinion. You don't want to go there, believe me! Worry less on chasing the numbers...get the nitrates and phosphates to a regular, stable number...ie: 5-10ppm NO3, 0.05-0.1ppm PO4... You can start this process by stopping the GFO...then seeing what your numbers are at. After this, then you will see where you need to dose to get these numbers where you want them to stabilize. Then, sit back and watch the tank progress...adjusting slightly as needed with CUC additions, pod additions, regular water change schedule while vacuuming the sand, etc...

Tanks will go through cyano phases as the nutrients are out of balance with the other biodiversity. Quick scanning of your message sounds like you are almost sterilizing the system with 0 nitrates, 0 phosphates, chemiclean, GFO, peroxide scrubbing, etc... This may be your downfall in this scenario. The items you are doing are causing big fluctuations in the nutrient levels that aren't being given the opportunity to stabilize...which leads to cyano. A young tank needs these things to mature properly and go through the stages.

I've been there and tried to keep out all algaes out of my tank in the beginning...biggest mistake I made! You have created a great scenario for a dinoflagellate infestion, in my opinion. You don't want to go there, believe me! Worry less on chasing the numbers...get the nitrates and phosphates to a regular, stable number...ie: 5-10ppm NO3, 0.05-0.1ppm PO4... You can start this process by stopping the GFO...then seeing what your numbers are at. After this, then you will see where you need to dose to get these numbers where you want them to stabilize. Then, sit back and watch the tank progress...adjusting slightly as needed with CUC additions, pod additions, regular water change schedule while vacuuming the sand, etc...

So you’re suggesting letting the system settle itself out after removing GFO? I’m currently not running chemiclean and just started the GFO. I’m also not chasing numbers I’m trying to eliminate the issue which is what is feeding the cyano. The cyano is building up which is my problem atm and whatever is feeding it needs to be eliminated. If it’s unknown and just waiting it out is necessary then say that instead. Sitting back and watching the issue worse isn’t gonna fix the underlying problem which is unknown. The attempt here was to find the source of the problem, which remains unknown. If it helps my numbers were still 0 before GFO please read my initial thread...

so remove GFO and let everything stabilize and continue routine maintenance?

 

[PBnJOnWheat]

I’ll go get some more pictures, and remove the GFO. Definitely don’t want Dino’s I had those in one of those 13.5 Fluval tanks.

Here are some pictures of white lighton some of the worst spots atm

 

[taricha]

Dinos. Not cyano...

 

[PBnJOnWheat]

Dinos. Not cyano...

Can chemiclean kill Dino’s? It has been wiping it only for it to return but any suggestions?

 

[PBnJOnWheat]

Can chemiclean kill Dino’s? It has been wiping it only for it to return but any suggestions?

Thanks everyone for helping again it is much appreciated.

So I started reading up again... sorry and thanks guy but I know I had cyano before as a had a experienced friend come and said that they were red slime algae but I believe I have cured that and have spawned Dino’s instead or at least have them now outcompeting any other issues I may currently have. I’m reading up to find that phytoplankton may help? More fish? Water changes, blackout, sand vacuuming, dose nitrates? MB-7? Any ideas on what I should do considered the previous steps above in the OP? L of them? I was curious about the phyto since I’ve been meaning to get some anyhow along with copepods and potentially growing my own phyto.

 

[Hydrored]

Step 1 remove GFO, start feeding a bit more. Measure phosphates at .03 and get your nitrates up. UV sterilizer helps. That’s how I got rid of them. One thing in common most reefers find is when you bottom out nutrients Dino’s come

 

[PBnJOnWheat]

Step 1 remove GFO, start feeding a bit more. Measure phosphates at .03 and get your nitrates up. UV sterilizer helps. That’s how I got rid of them. One thing in common most reefers find is when you bottom out nutrients Dino’s come

Early today I removed GFO, and what kind of test kit would you recommend for that specific of a phosphate testing. You’re suggesting to get phosphates to 0.03? Right?

 

[Hydrored]

Hanna ulr or red sea algae pro

 

[SPR1968]

You don’t want zero nitrate, and I think that is the source of the initial problem so get your nitrates to around 5-10 and maintain them there.

If you want a quick fix to get rid of the cyno already there maybe use chemiclean or do a simple 3 day blackout, and once it’s gone keep your nitrates up. Blackout means curtains/doors closed and the picture looks like maybe theres a window somewhere close by

I don’t see any reason to stop using GFO if you can’t keep phosphate locked below 0.03ppm. If you can then fine. If it goes above this you risk other unwanted issues and if you want the science behind this here you go

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/

Also get your RODI water checked and maintained it needs to be around 0TDS

 

[PBnJOnWheat]

Hey guys, I removed the GFO, got a Hannah checker and have been working to increase my nitrates and phosphates. My current issue is I cannot seem to do this. I recently added some copepods as planned along with daily dosing of phyto. I mixed up my flow to work better for the system and have started feeding excessively as much as I can handle. My readings are 0 for both still so I got a 2L MB-7 bottle and 500mL Neonitro and Neophos. I started with the recommended dosage and waited a couple of days continuing the same dosage of 10mL of nitro and 18mL of phos. I’ve been increasing by 5mL a day and I continue to get 0 for both the following day. I’m currently at 20mL nitro, 40mL phos PER DAY. With no readings. Any suggestions on these products or other ways to raise my nitrate and phosphate readings? My Chaeto won’t grow either despite a new light addition, adjusted flow, and dosing of the stuff it should be eating.i also adjusted my light schedule to 12 hours on/off in accordance with the fuge. I believe the Dino’s are still here but may be decreasing in volume ever so slowly.
Thanks again everybody.

 

[dwest]

When I was adding phosphates I took my fuge offline. That was 18 months ago and still have not had a reason to put it back. I would consider taking it offline at least temporarily.

But first, I would dose chemicals then immediately test and see what you get just to make sure testing is OK. It may take a while for phosphates to register the next day as rocks and sand will absorb some. As long as your test kits are good, you will eventually measure nitrates and phosphates.

Did you ever ID your dinos? Getting your nutrients up will allow the growth of beneficial dino competition, but you still might want or need to employ the right amount of UV to win the battle. Again, this depends on the type.

Good luck!

 

[Uncle99]

You need to run a trace amount of No3 and PO4.

 

[PBnJOnWheat]

When I was adding phosphates I took my fuge offline. That was 18 months ago and still have not had a reason to put it back. I would consider taking it offline at least temporarily.

But first, I would dose chemicals then immediately test and see what you get just to make sure testing is OK. It may take a while for phosphates to register the next day as rocks and sand will absorb some. As long as your test kits are good, you will eventually measure nitrates and phosphates.

Did you ever ID your dinos? Getting your nutrients up will allow the growth of beneficial dino competition, but you still might want or need to employ the right amount of UV to win the battle. Again, this depends on the type.

Good luck!

Alright thanks, I will dose at my usual 4:00 and test before and after to see what’s going on here. There’s a lot of users for a refugium and I don’t quite understand the benefits of getting rid of one but I’ll look into it. I actually have a UV sterilizer currently running it’s the green machine 120 sterilizer or something but it sounds like I could use a bigger one. I’m gonna get a salutary nitrate test kit to more accurately measure the nitrate levels.