What is "Great Success"?

[Newb73]

Paul - you create a lot of false questions. Not a lot of people claim 'great success'. When you say it that way it makes everyone assume that what youre saying is 'what everyone does'. In reality, very few people say any of the things quoted in your original post.

Example - no one says this: Or did you buy a Moorish Idol because you saw it eating Hamburger Helper in the store and the store owner assured you the fish has been eating this for 6 months so you got it home and although it is covered in spots and is nauseous so you put Prizapro on it and it is still alive after 3 days.

Example - no one thinks this: If a person lives 30 or 40 or even 50 years was he successful?

But you couch these posts in cuteness - and 'humor'. and so everyone says - oh yes he is right. In reality - most people dont think this way. It would be better (IMHO) to just say what you are trying to say with your original post above)- the point of which im still not clear - rather than this I fed my moorish Idol bagels and cream cheese with great success". Because no one ive read have said this.

I have heard some one say that feeding a certain food stimulates or potentiates or maintains the immune system in fish with no evidence...

1) His point is quite clear. Long term success > immediate success?

2) Immunity isn't related in any way to nutrition? That is your poignant argument? Except you are wrong. I work in health care. Do you know how long a patient needs to go NPO before hypoalbuminemia sets in, TLL drops, leukocytosis sets in? About 96 hours. (I won't bother telling you what all that means since it is obvious you are either a biologists or a Doctor eh?) Chronic lack of protein will precipitate a low level chronic weak immune system also. If that isn't bad enough, you lose the ability to heal wounds and repair tissues.

If it is evidence you need I can refer you to near mountains of scientific based studies on the matter.

 

[Newb73]

Oh - and I disagree with the rationale of Pauls immunity thread. So should everyone - if its not reproducible (more than multiple percent) its just anecdote. And thats not an insult to Paul. Its just that there are so many faults in the logic there that its not applicable to the majority of hobbyists. (imho)

I reproduced it.....I haven't lost a fish to disease in 10 years. (Is that "success"?).


Heck this tank is only 2.5 and is dz free using healthy feeding and husbandry and no QT. Several others have reproduced it as well.

 

[Newb73]

IMO; success in this hobby means that the vast majority of the livestock in your care does not die prematurely. Some (smaller) fish only live 5 years max, but most fish should live at least 10-15 years in captivity. Corals live a lot longer than that!

And look, we all know accidents can happen, wipeouts do occur, etc. You live with it by knowing you did your due diligence in each & every situation. It doesn't need to be judged anymore than that.

Never had a wipe out either....not since 1988.

Biggest problem is small fish like yellow gobies and anthias and even copperbands will vanish in my large tank, which i suspect are either failures to acclimate to tank food, a star fish predator or prob both.

 

[Newb73]

I don't claim to be a biologist or nutritionist. It seems to be commonly accepted that live Foods I.e.fruits and vegetables are better for you than processed foods this doesn't necessarily apply to fish. I know that you're talking about the bacteria from live foods
and Paul's claims that it makes his fish immune but couldn't it both be a nutritional and a bacterial component? I understand you were trying to warn beginners trying to emulate Paul but he does this himself in many posts. I know there are many variables in Reef keeping and he uses bacteria and mud from the ocean as well as a UV sterilizer. He doesn't claim everyone should use his methods. If people don't do their due diligence shame on them. Again I understand you're trying to inform people but I appreciate Paul's advice and love his humor. After all this is a hobby not life or death.

Learned immunity does indeed rely upon bacterial exposure. Mountains of scientific data to prove this also. Heck it is literally micro 101 in college.

Unless you want to develop vaccine injections for fish that is......

 

[Newb73]

Okay my current definitions of success.

1) No loss of fish dz in > 10 yrs
2) A thriving true mixed reef, which most people don't do any more due to it's increased complicatied nature.
3)Measurable sps growth under SPS which people would claim is impossible.
4) At my current growth and stocking rate, my sps and lps will start to over grow my tank and ill run out of room and have to buy a frag tank and start hacking my corals down or moving some to different tanks or selling pieces in less than a 4-5 yr window from build....which at least for me seems like success.

I may have failed Randy's test though. I work on the tank so much it is not ALWAYS enjoyable....it's work.

 

[dricc]

Learned immunity does indeed rely upon bacterial exposure. Mountains of scientific data to prove this also. Heck it is literally micro 101 in college.

Unless you want to develop vaccine injections for fish that is......

i meant to point out about the nutritional value but yes what you say makes sense absolutely but even nutritionally I think it makes sense whole food and or live food (for bacteria and protein) in the case of live food would be better than some dried up processed food or something as nutritionally valueless like frozen brine shrimp.

 

[dricc]

Learned immunity does indeed rely upon bacterial exposure. Mountains of scientific data to prove this also. Heck it is literally micro 101 in college.

Unless you want to develop vaccine injections for fish that is......

right bacteria and viruses in tolerable doses build up our immunity.

 

[Paul B]

So that brings up the question, is anyone truly successful in this hobby?

Yes, you are successful if you are happy.

Example - no one says this: Or did you buy a Moorish Idol because you saw it eating Hamburger Helper in the store and the store owner assured you the fish has been eating this for 6 months so you got it home and although it is covered in spots and is nauseous so you put Prizapro on it and it is still alive after 3 days.

Like Really!!

First off I see my tank all over this thread and it is not about my tank. (not so far anyway) It was just a thread to start a discussion and apparently, it did. It is about people saying "Great Success" and thats it. Not success, not pretty good, not fine or OK, but "Great Success". Great success is the epitome of success, it is better than just plain success. If it were the same thing, there would be no need to put "great" in front of it.
If you climbed Mt Everest and came to with in 500' from the top, that is almost Great Success, but not quite because it takes away from the people who made it all the way up and roasted Hot dogs there.

If you are keeping a fish, any fish and it dies from any reason besides old age, you did not have great success. You can spin that any way you want but that is a fact. Keeping a goldfish for 15 years is not a Great Success because they can live to 40 years so it's pretty good, but Great Success is the best.

If you say you cured ich with great success using garlic, cleaner shrimp, Prizapro, copper, aluminum or Draino and you only lost 2 or 3 fish along the way, that is not Great Success.

My 26 year old clownfish is not great success until he is about 40. If you want to call everything else Great, go for it. But it is a very low standard if a fish can live 15 or 20 years and you keep it for 8. You may feel that is Great Success but I think the fish would differ with you.

I am successful at being married as I am very happily married for 45 years, but Great Success is if I croak, I am still married.

You don't believe in my immunity thread. Many people don't. But invariably those are people who have posted on the disease thread. I personally have had "Great Success" with many fish because I got them as babies, they grew up to mate, have babies and die of old age. I have posted many pictures of the babies, teenagers, spawning and dying of old age. You can call that anecdotal evidence, lies, imagination or anything else. But I have done it many times and have always posted the pictures. I don't have to do anything else to prove it as it is already proven and I don't have to care if anyone believes me, my fish believe me.
If you say you had great success at something, post the pictures of the entire lifetime of the animal and show it dying of old age.

Many of us tend to think we are having great success because our tank didn't crash in 10 or 15 years when in reality a tank can and should go on forever as it is a thriving eco system. If it crashes for any reason, it was not great success. Even if it was from a power outage, move, earthquake, alien invasion etc. Even if it was not your fault it was not a Great Success. It may have been successful for 20 years, but thats it.
My tank is successful but it won't be a great success unless I still have it when I croak or take it down when I get to old to care for it. But if it crashes, even now after 46 years, it was not a Great Success.

Thats just the way it is.

Newb, it is always about wives. I do have pictures to prove everything.

This is probably 15 years ago



Here we are 2 years ago.



And here she is when I married her. 45 years ago



So far it has been a "Success"

 

[klp]

I agree with Paul B that our terms should be qualified when stated. I have had success, great success for 5 years, 15, this last batch etc. would define terms. Great success seems to be after many dismal failures this worked! Paul is right that we need to define what we mean when we use those terms and people should be asked if they do not define what they mean.

As for taking shots at Paul B IMO that was low breed as his post was not about his philosophy in fish keeping but defining terms which he has done in all his posts I have read. And proof with super model pictures!

 

[Paul B]

I really like this Klp, if that is his real name. (I can't pronounce it)

 

[ArowanaLover1902]

Growth of everything except algae

 

[Paul B]

I am going to put up a post of what I would consider Great Success with a particular fish.

Here is a new picture of a Watchman Gobi I got as a baby.



Here she is with her mate as an adolescent


Here she is with one of her many batches of eggs.


Here they are as an old married couple with pot bellies 12 years later.


Here is she dying of old age.


I would call this Great Success.

 

[klp]

I really like this Klp, if that is his real name. (I can't pronounce it)

Play on letters klp for kelp hence picture of marine grass (kelp picture would not copy in). klp are my actual initials so with a play on letters...

 

[Paul B]

Now Beas, just concentrate about fish.

 

[mcarroll]

It is evidence that he has a great tank. It is not evidence that the 'rationale' that he states is 'correct'. Lots of people using different methods have 'great tanks'. So I respectfully disagree.

I'm not sure I remember Paul giving out advice like that – he regularly states for newbs to basically ignore his tank.

But if you can understand what he's doing, it's not so mystifying.

I'm not saying I've always been able to get it....when I first bumped into one of Paul's threads about ten years ago, I was intrigued but I didn't know what to make of a lot of what he had going on.

These days it's more clear to me and there's even a progression to follow, IMO.

Looking back, it's pretty much the same "method" I used to set up and stock my freshwater tanks back in the day. And it was foolproof, at least in that scenario. Is there a reason to expect our fish to be different? Same basic physiology, same basic immune system.

Oh - and I disagree with the rationale of Pauls immunity thread. So should everyone - if its not reproducible (more than multiple percent) its just anecdote. And thats not an insult to Paul. Its just that there are so many faults in the logic there that its not applicable to the majority of hobbyists. (imho)

What rationale and logic are you referring to? I may be missing the specifics that you have in mind.

I agree many have good secsess but like Paul's tank is exceptional With a RFUG and no Qt not many like it.

Two things going on with this....

1. Folks get caught up in the particulars as if there's only one way to skin a cat, or like they can't do the very same thing he's doing in most cases.
   (Doing the same or similar is always possible IME.)
2. The folks waving their hands in the air about tank crashes, supposed widespread pathogens and miracle cures pretty much get 100% of the press.
   (This is not unique to reefs or even aquariums....it's the way news travels....bad news travels fast and good news....well it's slower and sometimes silent. )

QT
Folks succeeding without QT for the most part probably don't think they're doing anything special so you don't see them waving a flag.

If we promoted biology info with the same vigor that we promote QT and pharmaceutical advice....well a lot of things would be different, wouldn't they?

To see what I mean, look at the dichotomy between @Paul B's immunity thread where modern biology info is promoted and the disease forum where conversations are "vigorously routed the other way". Resistance to basic stress and nutrition info appears (from my experience) to be the reason why the Nutrition forum was created. Dichotomy. 2¢

rfUGF
Hardly anyone still has the same tank set up from the UGF-era....and of those that do, how many bother with online?

So I'm not worried about not seeing a lot of UGF cases here around the forum – that state is a given.

But there are other ways to accomplish what's going on with his rfUGF. I think what folks miss is the point that, contrary to popular opinion, rfUGF works just fine in a reef. It's a bio-filter/refugium – don't let it distract you.

I am going to put up a post of what I would consider Great Success with a particular fish.

Here is a new picture of a Watchman Gobi I got as a baby.



Here she is with her mate as an adolescent


Here she is with one of her many batches of eggs.


Here they are as an old married couple with pot bellies 12 years later.


Here is she dying of old age.


I would call this Great Success.

Agreed! Thanks for clarifying – a brilliant example!

 

[Paul B]

Play on letters klp for kelp hence picture of marine grass (kelp picture would not copy in). klp are my actual initials so with a play on letters...

Thats cool, thanks for clarifying it.
My Name Paul is actually a pun on the name Paul. OK, it is my name Paul so it's no pun. No pun intended.

 

[Gareth elliott]

I would define success as learning from past mistakes whether your own or others and being able to identify the fail point and not repeating.
Great success would be the ability to use your wisdom of past losses and wins to guide others to having more checks in the win column than losses, and anticipate the probable fail points they might hit, before they occur. And have the instructions to get surpass them that the other party is able to digest.

We are constantly learning new material, some dispelling old beliefs, some reinforcing them. A great success story is one where both past and present materials come together to as close an understanding of the principles at play.

My random metaphysical opinion on success lol.

 

[MnFish1]

I don't claim to be a biologist or nutritionist. It seems to be commonly accepted that live Foods I.e.fruits and vegetables are better for you than processed foods this doesn't necessarily apply to fish. I know that you're talking about the bacteria from live foods
and Paul's claims that it makes his fish immune but couldn't it both be a nutritional and a bacterial component? I understand you were trying to warn beginners trying to emulate Paul but he does this himself in many posts. I know there are many variables in Reef keeping and he uses bacteria and mud from the ocean as well as a UV sterilizer. He doesn't claim everyone should use his methods. If people don't do their due diligence shame on them. Again I understand you're trying to inform people but I appreciate Paul's advice and love his humor. After all this is a hobby not life or death.
[QUOTE="dricc, post: 4459609, member: 38442".

[/QUOTE]

My theory is that when you put fish in a tank they already come with teh bacteria that their mucus/intestines require. Unless they have been treated with antibiotics. Over time, these bacteria repopulate or the animal dies. Feeding frozen food - supplemented with bacteria that is available commercially can do this as well. But each organism eventually developed its own 'microbiome'. Unless there are drugs given to upset it again, there is no evidence that continued bacteria feeding is beneficial (but its also not harmful). Its well known that 'starving' (any organism) will weaken its immune system. The problem I guess I had with the original post in this thread sets up a false argument. I appreciate his advice and love his humor as well. To the fish and coral, though it is life or death, and Paul states himself that his methods preclude him from caring for various species of coral.

 

[mcarroll]

Paul states himself that his methods preclude him from caring for various species of coral.

That's true for all of us though – we all keep corals that our tanks are capable of keeping and avoid the ones it can't.

Beside all that, Paul has an amazing reef tank with fish that breed like crazy in it, corals that grow like crazy, sponges that grow like crazy, etc.

I think it's a little specious to try and critique THAT on the basis you used.

It would make more sense look at all the stereotypical tanks out there and critique them – which is usually easy. (It's unlikely any of them will be around in 3-5 years.)

 

[MnFish1]

1) His point is quite clear. Long term success > immediate success?

2) Immunity isn't related in any way to nutrition? That is your poignant argument? Except you are wrong. I work in health care. Do you know how long a patient needs to go NPO before hypoalbuminemia sets in, TLL drops, leukocytosis sets in? About 96 hours. (I won't bother telling you what all that means since it is obvious you are either a biologists or a Doctor eh?) Chronic lack of protein will precipitate a low level chronic weak immune system also. If that isn't bad enough, you lose the ability to heal wounds and repair tissues.

If it is evidence you need I can refer you to near mountains of scientific based studies on the matter.

1. My credentials start with an undergraduate degree in microbiology and immunology and extend some 8 years after that. My guess is that I can match your scientific background.
2. I never said that nutrition isn't related to immunity (in fact I mentioned that it was common sense that a starving or malnourished animal will have a suboptimal immune function). Im not going to repeat all of what I said in my just posted post, you can read it if you like.

My poignant argument was this:

" I have heard some one say that feeding a certain food stimulates or potentiates or maintains the immune system in fish with no evidence..."

The key word there is 'certain'. I did not say that nutrition wasn't important. I said that Paul's claims that 'certain' live foods with bacteria supposedly potentiates the immune system (and are needed for great success in this hobby) have no evidence... This debate is similar to the 'feed raw meat to pets' vs pre-made pet food.

I also dont hear many people here claiming to have 'great success' in reef-keeping.