what phosphate level cause greening acros?

jda

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Any living organism needs building blocks for growth and repair. Some can recapture and reuse them in a semi-closed system (inside a coral tissue, for example). Zoox is no different than coral which need some building blocks to grow and repair. In an environment with very low building blocks, growth will slow, but death should not happen. All building blocks are poisons at too high of levels - the amount depends on the organism.

Some stuff can run unchecked with higher levels of building blocks, but they also need carbon (sugar) to grow. Most algae are this way and they can make their own sugars. It is true that you can get a lot more algae with more building blocks, but more in the tank (hair, bryopisis is no good) and more in the coral is not really good either (browning from overpopulating). In a brown-out, the coral cannot use all of the sugars created and has to spend energy trying to expel the excess - again, a poison in too high of concentration. This is why growth slows in browned-out corals most of the time and can cause death... I guess a coral type-2 diabetes (I kid).

The ocean has a constant low surplus of N and P... carbon is more scarce unless you have zoox to make some for you. Ocean is at about .1N and .01P, but is really steady with this surplus and does not ever appear to get to zero (although, I do not recall any peer reviewed studies that actually looked at this exact thing).

People hate it when I get all generational, but I will kinda do it here. My apologies in advance... Ever since the Biocube and BRS Generation where people wanted to "control" their tanks from day one, this became an issue. Before this, people tried to get "zero" N and P over the course of the first year, but they did not really mean zero, they meant zero on a cheap, hobby-grade test kit (there was no Hannah Ultra Low Phosphorous back then). Getting to true zero was nearly impossible back then when nobody dosed organic carbon or had GFO... it was a natural low. Over the course of a year, the tank would get a good population of anoxic bacteria in the rocks and sand that would keep the nitrate low, but not too low always leaving enough to drive the equilibrium. The fresh aragonite and rock from the ocean would bind up enough P to leave a small amount in the tank and could act as a buffer to absorb more in between water changes or release more if the levels got low. Most people do not even know that aragonite buffers and binds phosphate. With lack of sand, dry rock (not capable of pulling it's biological weight for quite some time), reactors and chemicals and misunderstanding of chemistry that is mostly driven from manufacturers offering "articles" that support their products as facts, then it has been harder lately to have a really stable tank without waiting a 2-3 years. While any one method is totally doable for the people who do it, the older style of sand, rock, flow, skimmer and patience works and is quite foolproof for the masses. There are far too many people who are fairly new to the hobby who cannot even separate advice for seasoned reefs from advice from new ones... they think that everything applies at all times and that they can always be the exception and not the rule. The easy advice is to wait out the ugly and algae cycles early on, with routine maintenance, until your tank takes shape and is REALLY stable, then try and get a low, but detectable amount of building blocks using a few various methods (one approach for young tanks and another for mature ones) - this is easier said than done with most who want their success now and will just keep buying equipment, chemicals, media, etc. and find a narrative that supports what they want to hear, not what they need to hear, and then wonder why advice or any particular method will not work for them.
 

markalot

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I think that it is fair to assume that acros do not catch a lot of food, but they probably do some.

I don't have a strong argument against this but I assume if they have polyps they eat, otherwise they would have evolved differently. While water samples may be food starved a lot of that water moves by a coral during a 24 hour period. The entire polyp structure is a waste if they don't use them to capture food on a regular basis. In my opinion.
 

saltyfilmfolks

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Plankton rises to the surface of the ocean every night and one reason reefs are where they are is because they are fed by the up swell of nutrients from the deep by the currents mainly and waves.
 

Hans-Werner

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In my experience blue light and iron enhances green fluorescent color. Under phosphate limitation or phosphate starvation corals loose all bright colors and get a dull greyish beige color. With low to absent nitrate concentrations the corals get very light in color but may keep the bright colors. Of course green brightens up to a more yellow color.

SPS are quite efficient filter feeders, more so than LPS, but SPS need more phosphate for good growth since most phosphate is incorporated into the skeleton. For their faster skeletal growth SPS need higher phosphate concetrations (or more food) than LPS.
 

Graffiti Spot

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I always thought that only a small amount of phosphate was needed to make coral skeletons. And the faster growth from higher phosphate just makes a more brittle skeleton. I thought the more healthy acropora are the ones with denser skeletons. I don't like receiving frags from tanks that have low flow and high nutrients because the fragments are always long and skinny and easy to break.
 

Hans-Werner

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These are two different informations. Yes, Acroporas grown under low phosphate concentrations make denser and harder skeletons. But nevertheless most of the phosphate gets incorporated into the skeleton and with higher phosphate concentrations the rate of calcification is even increased. This is not contradictory: The corals grow much faster and in this way they show increased calcification although the skeleton is lighter and more brittle.

What is healthy? Below 0.02 ppm phosphate at least some corals show net phosphate loss which means without food this coral will die from phosphate starvation at this or lower concentrations. On the other side at high phosphate concetrations, let´s say above 0.1 ppm, corals just get more brittle, they will not die and will even grow faster.
 

jda

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We have talked about this before, but I have still yet to see any peer-reviewed studies that show a faster calcification from higher building block levels... everything points to low, but detectable for faster calcification. Do you have any that I can read up on? My own personal experiences also show this to not be true - I can fill a 240g tank wall to wall with acropora in 30-36 months from 1 inch frags with .1p and .01p while growing way too much coralline... carbonate and calcium consumption falls quite a bit at even 1.0n and .1p while growth is fine, but not nearly as fast (I would have cut my CaRx down quite a bit if the N or P rises).

I know that some hobbyists do not believe this, but this does not do much for me since I don't know enough about their individual setups to really know what to think. Some of my friends who I do know well that keep medium-level building blocks are OK with it since it gives them a buffer and they are Ok with the slower growth. Some are also OK with it since they don't want to tear down and reboot every 3 years.
 

Hans-Werner

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Please for example see here in Shantz' dissertation, page 19:
Furthermore, rather than suppressing growth as has been commonly assumed, P enrichment enhances calcification in corals but may compromise skeletal integrity.
and on page 21:
P enrichment increased calcification rates of corals (Fig 2.1) but had no effect on extension rates or skeletal density. This pattern was surprising given that phosphorus inhibits calcium carbonate precipitation (Lin and Singer 2006).
... Dunn et al. (2012) proposed that corals incorporate CaHPO4 into the skeleton when phosphate is abundant, allowing calcification to proceed at high phosphorus levels but distorting the skeletal lattice and creating a more porous coral skeleton. While we found no significant evidence of reduced skeletal density to support this hypothesis, five of six measurements in our analysis reported decreased skeletal density under P enrichment.
Decreased skeletal density but increased rates of calcification seem to be at odds with one another. However, because calcification was often measured via changes in coral mass, rates of calcification may not have changed significantly. Rather, corals may have incorporated a greater amount of heavy CaHPO4 into their skeletons, instead of CaCO3, resulting in heavier but more porous skeletons as Dunn et al. (2012) suggested. Increased porosity leads to greater susceptibility of corals to boring organisms and breakage (Caroselli et al. 2011), potentially making them more vulnerable to disturbances under P enrichment.

There are other publications of recent years too, i. e. Dunn et al. on Acropora and Godinot et al. on Stylophora.

Other scientific publications show that phosphate starvation enhances bleaching while phosphate nutrition reduces bleaching at high temperatures, regarding coral health.
 
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jda

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I have those on the list to read. Thanks for the links.

Nobody is talking about starvation... that is just not smart. Low, but measurable and not growth limiting is where ocean is at and where I like to be - all of my experiences of faster growth and better color at at these levels.

I melt coral skeletons in my CaRx and there is no measurable phosphate that comes out of the reactor. I concentrated it once and got like .0000003 ppm, or something like that, in a really uncontrolled study. Nobody has verifiable reports of phosphate issues from melting ARM or Reborn (old coral skeletons), so perhaps the increase in CaHPO4 is a non-natural response to a non-natural environment? (I am not saying, just wondering since the DiCalcium Phosphate should melt in a reactor with a pH around where aragonite does)
 

Hans-Werner

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Strange since usually the phosphate supply of coral skeletons to the reef aquarium can not only be measured at the reactor outlet but sometimes even in the reef aquarium. For sure there is a substantial supply of phosphate by coral calcium reactors.

Since the proportion of tissue especially in SPS (some percent of the skeletal mass) is so small most of the phosphate is incorporated and stored in the skeletons.
 

jda

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Lab tests have shown both Reborn and the Carib Sea stuff to have only a very small trace of phosphate. Of course, these are lab tests that the manufacturers supply... but I do not have any personal experience to suggest otherwise.

I would not be shocked if melting skeletons made in a high P environment gave off some P, like in a home aquarium, but the ocean is not that place. I do not melt skeletons from stuff grown in captivity.

I will test my tank water and then my effluent water later today or tomorrow. I just restocked with a a fresh 30 lbs of ARM.
 

Hans-Werner

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Dissolve some Indopacific coral gravel like it is used for coral calcium reactors in ultrapure nitric acid and you will find more than trace amounts of phosphate.
 

jda

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Gravel is different. If that is what you are using, then I get that. Bacterial processes in the substrate and the ability for aragonite to simple bind phosphate (not built/locked into the crystalline structure) is probably what is happening here. My guess would be that the phosphate bound to this gravel after it was dead and crushed around for decades. The top layer of gravel on most reefs is pretty phosphate free since it is close to the oligotrophic water, but down deeper can have some where it is not exposed - the top-levels stuff that Carib Sea sells and what used to be in Southdown Sand did not have any detectable phosphate (although there were no good test kits back then).

I am talking about fairly fresh coral skeletons that are not in with the biologicals in the substrate. This is a closer comparable to the coral skeletons that we are talking about.
 

biecacka

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So I recently tested my p04 in my tank for the first time in many months and my Hanna checker read 0 three times in a row. Alk is 8.4. Calcium is 430, mag 1300, n03 is 5-10.

Any ideas in raising my p04 or should I leave it be because you’re saying it’s not really zero. I tested it for 2 reasons, 1) I felt some of my growth had slowed down, and 2) I have never ever had great polyp extension and my buddy was curious what my p04 was ( I’m unaware of any correlation of the 2 but I’m unaware of a LOT of things :))

Corey
 

jda

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I just tested my CaRx. 5 ppb in the tank (0.0153 ppm) and 2 coming out of the CaRx. This is pretty fresh media, so it has lower phosphate than the tank and is currently binding. I do not know if the high carbonate or calcium in the effluent (alk is about 24-25) can mess with this test kit, but it does not seem like it should if it uses Acetic Acid like most other P kits do. I imagine that the media will bind to equilibrium with the tank and soon the two will read the same (within the margin of error of the test kit) - for years, they always test the same (within one ppb).

Tank Water:


Water out of CaRx:
 

jda

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Corey - you need some, but I would make sure that your test is accurate before you go chasing anything. Is it the Hannah Ultra Low, or the regular Hannah? Are you doing anything to strip the P like GFO, Lan Chloride or organic carbon?
 

biecacka

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Jda, it is the ultra low. I’m not going to chase numbers, I’ve done that in past years and had no good luck. I’m still getting growth just maybe a bit slower. I don’t dose/use any carbon, I run a bubble king skimmer and an ATS on my tank. No other gimmicks or anything. I could maybe feed a tad bit more but that’s debatable in my eyes.
I recently added a few corals to the tank and they haven’t started to color up like I’d like, but they are relatively new to the system as well and that can sometimes take weeks I’m aware.
I tested the p04 with the Hanna and a sailfert kit to double check really. Both came out 0. Like I stated, not chasing any numbers but I could feed more and in turn get more from my ATS and skimmer. I dont feel like they are over worked because they are sized appropriate for the tank.

Corey
 

Hans-Werner

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Any ideas in raising my p04 or should I leave it be because you’re saying it’s not really zero.
Please follow the Shantz link and go to page 22:
"One surprising pattern in our analyses was the differential effect of enrichment source on
corals. Natural enrichment via fish excretion always enhanced coral growth (Fig. 2.3). In contrast,
human-derived nutrients, whether from manipulative experiments or anthropogenic pollution,
tended to have negative effects on corals. Differences in nutrient identity, concentration, and
consistency between fish excretion and human-derived nutrients as well physical parameters like
the flow rates around corals may drive these differential effects. For example, fish excretion
delivers primarily ammonium and P (Meyer and Schultz 1985b), while anthropogenic enrichment
tended to deliver more nitrate, which easily leaches from soils relative to phosphorus"

Feeding fish is also my suggestion for several years already.
 

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