Where to put gate valve for basement sump?

Reefs and Geeks

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I'm getting ready to plumb up a basement sump and will be using a Herbie style drain. For the full siphon line, where would be best to put the gate valve? Should it be a few feet below the overflow where I can adjust it from the same floor as the tank? Or would it be more beneficial to put the gate valve near the bottom of the drain line in the basement?

Any other considerations for drains to a basement sump? I want to make sure I get it right the first time so it drains well and is quite.
 

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I'm getting ready to plumb up a basement sump and will be using a Herbie style drain. For the full siphon line, where would be best to put the gate valve? Should it be a few feet below the overflow where I can adjust it from the same floor as the tank? Or would it be more beneficial to put the gate valve near the bottom of the drain line in the basement?

Any other considerations for drains to a basement sump? I want to make sure I get it right the first time so it drains well and is quite.

Always as close to the sump as possible when it comes to gate valve placement, it will be a pain to tune but it will be the most quiet. :)

Also not really related to drains, but try and oversize your return plumbing if possible. This will be less restrictive on flow and make things a little easier on your pump.
 
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mikedb

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I tried both, and ultimately ended up locating the valve in the basement. Here are a few of the differences I have noticed:
  • Noise: Having the valve near the display was LOUD when I shut the return pump off during feeding times. The best comparison I could make is a toilet flushing combined with an engine starting. I was loud enough to wake the baby upstairs and make guests jump, and really limited the times I could feed the tank. With it in the basement, all I hear is a quiet rumble. (Note: both were perfectly silent under normal operation)
  • Ease of Adjustment: it is much easier to have the valve right underneath the tank instead of needing to walk down to the basement to make occasional adjustments. But, if you have a DC Return pump on a 0-10V control, you can always adjust the valve so it is close to your desired flow, and the fine tune it with the return pump speed. In any event, I have found that after a week or two of fiddling, I really don’t need to adjust the valve at all- monthly at most.
  • Time to Reach Full Siphon: When turning the return pump back on after feedings, air was purged out of the drain and a full siphon was reestablished after a few minutes when the valve was under the display. With the valve in the basement, this takes a lot longer- as much as an hour or so until all the air is purged and the drain reaches full speed. I have overcome this issue by setting my return pump to ramp up from 60% speed to 80% (the normal setting) over an hour following startup.
For me, noise issues made this an easy choice, but I don’t believe either is right or wrong.
 
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Time to Reach Full Siphon: When turning the return pump back on after feedings, air was purged out of the drain and a full siphon was reestablished after a few minutes when the valve was under the display. With the valve in the basement, this takes a lot longer- as much as an hour or so until all the air is purged and the drain reaches full speed. I have overcome this issue by setting my return pump to ramp up from 60% speed to 80% (the normal setting) over an hour following startup.
For me, noise issues made this an easy choice, but I don’t believe either is right or wrong.

Thanks for the replies! it does sound like putting the valve in the basement near the sump is the way to go. The drain taking a while to go back to full siphon does have me worried though. I'm assuming the drain won't be able to operate as well, and not drain as fast when not in full siphon (this will be my first time using a gate valve on a drain line or running one in full siphon). So what happens to the extra water being pumped into the display while the siphon drain is purging itself of air? does the other unrestricted "trickle" drain just handle the additional water and make louder drain noises until the other drain reaches full siphon again? Is there any risk of overflowing the display is the siphon drain line doesn't go full siphon fast enough? For as often as the pump shuts off, I'm not overly concerned with a bit of noise upon start up, but would be worried if there's a chance of overflow.
 

mikedb

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Thanks for the replies! it does sound like putting the valve in the basement near the sump is the way to go. The drain taking a while to go back to full siphon does have me worried though. I'm assuming the drain won't be able to operate as well, and not drain as fast when not in full siphon (this will be my first time using a gate valve on a drain line or running one in full siphon). So what happens to the extra water being pumped into the display while the siphon drain is purging itself of air? does the other unrestricted "trickle" drain just handle the additional water and make louder drain noises until the other drain reaches full siphon again? Is there any risk of overflowing the display is the siphon drain line doesn't go full siphon fast enough? For as often as the pump shuts off, I'm not overly concerned with a bit of noise upon start up, but would be worried if there's a chance of overflow.

I wouldn't worry. As you suggest, if you you just switch on the return pump to the normal steady-state flow rate after feeding, the excess water will just go down the overflow. That would cause a little bit of noise, but otherwise a non issue. We aren't talking about a massive flow reduction- I see about a 20-25% decrease in flow right after I turn the pump back on:

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The 'emergency drain' in any three-pipe (Herbie?) system should be able to instantly handle >100% of the required flow in the event of a sudden, catastrophic blockage of the primary return line. For most properly-designed systems, this is accomplished by significantly oversizing the return pipe diameter, and then using a gate valve on the primary return to dial back the flow so that a full siphon can be maintained.

In my experience and research, most primary returns operate with gate vales that are typically only ~25% open at most- and that is what causes such a delay in reaching a steady-state siphon. If required, the emergency drain can start a full siphon very quickly, and move a LOT of water.

FWIW, I consider it an important periodic maintenance item to suddenly block the primary return pipe under normal operating conditions to ensure the emergency drain has the necessary capacity and has not somehow become blocked. I use my (now) unused upstairs gate valve, which normally remains fully open, to accomplish this without having to mess with my downstairs gate valve setting.
 
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Thanks! that makes me feel better about the set up :) when setting up the return flowrate, I'll test multiple times if the emergency drain can handle all of the flow as you had mentioned and adjust the return pump flowrate as needed if the drain seems questionable about handling the flow. I'm guessing with a 12-14' vertical drop, the suction on the line will be pretty high and be able to handle quite alot of flow.

My setup will only have 2 drain pipes, the full siphon, and the emergency overflow which will have a slight trickle of drain water during normal operation. I'd like to have the 3 drain setup, but not going to tear down my established tank to drill another hole. In any case, I'll ensure the emergency drain is more than capable of handling full flow.

Thanks again!
 

mikedb

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Thanks! that makes me feel better about the set up :) when setting up the return flowrate, I'll test multiple times if the emergency drain can handle all of the flow as you had mentioned and adjust the return pump flowrate as needed if the drain seems questionable about handling the flow. I'm guessing with a 12-14' vertical drop, the suction on the line will be pretty high and be able to handle quite alot of flow.

My setup will only have 2 drain pipes, the full siphon, and the emergency overflow which will have a slight trickle of drain water during normal operation. I'd like to have the 3 drain setup, but not going to tear down my established tank to drill another hole. In any case, I'll ensure the emergency drain is more than capable of handling full flow.

Thanks again!

Great. You'll be fine (but I highly encourage the testing!). I think you will be amazed at how much flow an unrestricted emergency drain can handle, especially under full siphon. I believe the valve on my main return (which, at 1-1/2", is oversized) is less than 10% open. The key is to make sure the emergency drain is still clear and working on a periodic basis.

I may have been a little misleading in my post above. When I referred to a 'three pipe' system, I meant a supply, return, and emergency return, as you have. It's more than adequate, IMO.
 

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I put mine by the tank, but never turn off the return pump so the noise issues etc aren't a problem. I just hear it when the power goes out. :)
 

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I have a basement sump with the gate valve under the tank. In all fairness I never considered putting it anywhere else so my experience is limited.

But my thought process Involved not knowing how to tune the valve from the basement? other then turning it a little, running upstairs and checking it, then running back downstairs and tune it some more. A dc return pump was not an option for me to overcome the head pressure.

I find mine very quiet during normal operation, the vortech pumps are louder then the drains. When the power is out the noise level would increases but that’s the idea. I would instantly be aware of issues with the basement return pump.

I have two 1 1/2 drains and a 300g display. I’m also only running about 1x turnover/hour so my flow is limited through the drains. Not sure that helps but having a basement sump is fantastic!
 

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A smaller drain line will establish a full siphon faster than a large one. A 3/4 or even a 1/2 line will be PLENTY under full siphon
 

ca1ore

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Is there any risk of overflowing the display if the siphon drain line doesn't go full siphon fast enough? For as often as the pump shuts off, I'm not overly concerned with a bit of noise upon start up, but would be worried if there's a chance of overflow.

Not if you have sized the drains properly. The whole point of the secondary/emergency is that it can handle 100% of your tank flow in the event the primary were to be completely blocked.
 
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Reefs and Geeks

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I have (2) 1" drains on my 150 gallon display. I'm currently using an under the stand sump and only running about 150gph through the return pump. At the moment I have flow trickling down both drains about equally with a "flyguy" overflow as I don't have an overflow box yet. Has worked well, but limits the speed at which the drains will work quietly by quite a bit. Much above 150gph and they gurgle alot. Part of the basement sump upgrade will be upgrading the drain plumbing to a Herbie style so I can get a higher turnover rate. I know I've seen a calculator for drain rates on pipe of different lengths, but can't find it now. I'm fairly sure a 12+ foot drop on a 1" drain line will produce more than enough flow. I can always turn the return pump down sum if needed as well to make sure the drain works well at whatever flowrate I want. Not only that it will drain fast enough, but that it will start a siphon rapidly enough to not let the display level rise too high.

Glad to hear a smaller drain line will prime faster than larger. I've always felt my 1" drains were a bit undersized, though I've never used a full siphon before, so I know i'm under utilizing them with my current setup.
 

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