Why are people getting Dino outbreaks after using an algae removal chemical?

eraserhead187

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Been thinking about this lately, because it happened to me a few years ago and seems to be happening to others. I had bubble algae that got out of hand very quickly. I read about Vibrant and have it a try. Well, it worked beautifully in just a week or so. However, once the algae was gone, a massive explosion of ostreopsis ovata occurred. After fighting that off, amphidinium moved in to take its place. Beat that back and coolia came. It sort of ran its own course and I have been Dino free for about a year and a half or so now.

Why does this happen? It doesn't seem to be limited to Vibrant. A few Amazon reviews of Flux Rx say that they had it happen too. I'm assuming that the vacancy of the biological niche occupied by the algae allows something else to step in and flourish, but why is it always dinos? Aren't most dinos both heterotrophic and autotrophic? Why do they explode when algae is eliminated quickly? We say to increase nutrients when fighting dinos. But doesn't the death of all that algae release a lot of nutrients into the water? What about people that run VLN tanks, why don't they have constant Dino problems?

Just some questions I'm asking myself. Anybody have any good theories as to why this happens, and how to stop it?
 

sixty_reefer

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Simple answer is that most of this product strip your system from nutrients creating the perfect environment for dinoflagellates. You will also notice that most threads were someone is suffering from dinoflagellates po4 or no3 are bottom out
 
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eraserhead187

eraserhead187

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We are told that Vibrant is a mixture of bacteria that is supposed to attack the algae directly. Flux Rx is flucanozole. Not saying you're not right on, but why would either of these cause nutrients to bottom out? I think I remember testing my nitrates and phosphates when I used Vibrant and I don't remember them being particularly low.

So I wonder if dosing nutrients while using these products would help?
 

Kayvon

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Vibrant dropped my nitrates to 0 and led to dinos. Not sure what Vibrant is, but I suspect that it's something more than bacteria.
 

sixty_reefer

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We are told that Vibrant is a mixture of bacteria that is supposed to attack the algae directly. Flux Rx is flucanozole. Not saying you're not right on, but why would either of these cause nutrients to bottom out? I think I remember testing my nitrates and phosphates when I used Vibrant and I don't remember them being particularly low.

So I wonder if dosing nutrients while using these products would help?
Am not familiar with any algaecide safe for a reef tank, the way that some products work imo is by removing Carbon and ammonium from the water column, in a way starving the algae. I don’t believe the product will be killing the algae directly hence sometimes some users will loose coral during treatment.

If anyone were to dose nutrients during treatment, this would probably reduce if no inhibit the treatment itself
 

UWC

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Hi All, Vibrant does not work by way of nutrient reduction. Yes, some of the bacteria do consume some nutrients. If your nutrients are already on the lower side, we recommend dosing nutrients to keep things stable. You do not want your nutrients to get too low or bottom out :)
 
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eraserhead187

eraserhead187

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Hi All, Vibrant does not work by way of nutrient reduction. Yes, some of the bacteria do consume some nutrients. If your nutrients are already on the lower side, we recommend dosing nutrients to keep things stable. You do not want your nutrients to get too low or bottom out :)
I was hoping you would chime in! Thanks for all you contribute to the forums. Can the age and biome stability of the system play a role in how these products affect the proliferation of various critters? I'd be curious how many people used these products on relatively new tanks vs long established tanks and see if there is variability in complications that coincide. Mine was relatively young when I had my mishap, maybe 6 months along.
 
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eraserhead187

eraserhead187

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Am not familiar with any algaecide safe for a reef tank, the way that some products work imo is by removing Carbon and ammonium from the water column, in a way starving the algae. I don’t believe the product will be killing the algae directly hence sometimes some users will loose coral during treatment.

If anyone were to dose nutrients during treatment, this would probably reduce if no inhibit the treatment itself
Not specifically talking about an algacide like you would add to a swimming pool, but the Vibrant product, which is very effective for many kids of algae, and fluconazole, which is a pharmaceutical antimicrobial. People have been having luck with that for bryopsis and GHA.
 

Gareth elliott

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Might be a form of correlation instead of causation in the da.

One doses something for algae. Algae goes away. Same aquaist is scared will happen again so reduces nutrients. Whether by reduced feedings, carbon dosing etc.

Found this odd example on google, had to share lol.


E34298B6-7179-447E-9B1C-73F0F18DC6C0.jpeg

But i think will need more tanks data and account for variables before would be able to connect the two.
 

UWC

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I was hoping you would chime in! Thanks for all you contribute to the forums. Can the age and biome stability of the system play a role in how these products affect the proliferation of various critters? I'd be curious how many people used these products on relatively new tanks vs long established tanks and see if there is variability in complications that coincide. Mine was relatively young when I had my mishap, maybe 6 months along.
Very welcome, we are here to help :)

Not really, we use Vibrant on all tanks starting at week two during the cycle, dosing once every two weeks.

There are really three reasons why people get into trouble and cause other issues for themselves.

1. If they have a lower nutrient system and they let their nutrients bottom out, this is a no no. Vibrant is not depending on nutrient reduction to help with algae removal. We recommend keeping No3 at 5 or above and Po4 at 0.3 or above and dose nutrients as needed to keep them stable.

2. When people are dealing with algae's that harbor a lot of nutrients ( such as hair algae ) and it begins to die off, those nutrients need to be removed from the system or another algae will step in and become the main nutrient consumer of the system. Many people are relying on their refugums as nutrient removal but also are dealing with algae's such as hair, this means their refugium is not functioning as well as it should or they need to add additional nutrient removal filtrations.

3. People just go WAY too fast. They want their algae gone like yesterday ( I get it ). It is best to go low and slow and work your dosing up so you can stay on top of your nutrients and adjust them up or down as needed. Nothing good happens fast with reef tanks. Not sure if you saw the videos that Ryan at BRS put out about Vibrant but he explains this very well :)

With all of this said, we have literally dosed hundreds of tanks long term over the years and have never had a cyano or dino outbreak. If people follow the three things listed above, they will have great success with Vibrant.
 
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eraserhead187

eraserhead187

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Might be a form of correlation instead of causation in the da.

One doses something for algae. Algae goes away. Same aquaist is scared will happen again so reduces nutrients. Whether by reduced feedings, carbon dosing etc.

Found this odd example on google, had to share lol.


E34298B6-7179-447E-9B1C-73F0F18DC6C0.jpeg

But i think will need more tanks data and account for variables before would be able to connect the two.
I love those correlation things! There are a bunch of great ones. You do have a a good point. For some reason we think that chasing the zero nitrates and phosphates are important as heck when we start out. I know I did things to try to lower them, when I shouldn't have bothered. Maybe it is a factor.
 
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eraserhead187

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Very welcome, we are here to help :)

Not really, we use Vibrant on all tanks starting at week two during the cycle, dosing once every two weeks.

There are really three reasons why people get into trouble and cause other issues for themselves.

1. If they have a lower nutrient system and they let their nutrients bottom out, this is a no no. Vibrant is not depending on nutrient reduction to help with algae removal. We recommend keeping No3 at 5 or above and Po4 at 0.3 or above and dose nutrients as needed to keep them stable.

2. When people are dealing with algae's that harbor a lot of nutrients ( such as hair algae ) and it begins to die off, those nutrients need to be removed from the system or another algae will step in and become the main nutrient consumer of the system. Many people are relying on their refugums as nutrient removal but also are dealing with algae's such as hair, this means their refugium is not functioning as well as it should or they need to add additional nutrient removal filtrations.

3. People just go WAY too fast. They want their algae gone like yesterday ( I get it ). It is best to go low and slow and work your dosing up so you can stay on top of your nutrients and adjust them up or down as needed. Nothing good happens fast with reef tanks. Not sure if you saw the videos that Ryan at BRS put out about Vibrant but he explains this very well :)

With all of this said, we have literally dosed hundreds of tanks long term over the years and have never had a cyano or dino outbreak. If people follow the three things listed above, they will have great success with Vibrant.
Thanks, that answers a question I had on another thread about how early is too early to use these types of things. I haven't seen the videos but will definitely check them out.
 

sixty_reefer

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Not specifically talking about an algacide like you would add to a swimming pool, but the Vibrant product, which is very effective for many kids of algae, and fluconazole, which is a pharmaceutical antimicrobial. People have been having luck with that for bryopsis and GHA.
Ive mentioned algaecide as it’s the only thing that kills algae directly as you mentioned on the opening status. The algae products in the hobby aim to outcompete by removing the food source of the algae.
 

sixty_reefer

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Very welcome, we are here to help :)

Not really, we use Vibrant on all tanks starting at week two during the cycle, dosing once every two weeks.

There are really three reasons why people get into trouble and cause other issues for themselves.

1. If they have a lower nutrient system and they let their nutrients bottom out, this is a no no. Vibrant is not depending on nutrient reduction to help with algae removal. We recommend keeping No3 at 5 or above and Po4 at 0.3 or above and dose nutrients as needed to keep them stable.

2. When people are dealing with algae's that harbor a lot of nutrients ( such as hair algae ) and it begins to die off, those nutrients need to be removed from the system or another algae will step in and become the main nutrient consumer of the system. Many people are relying on their refugums as nutrient removal but also are dealing with algae's such as hair, this means their refugium is not functioning as well as it should or they need to add additional nutrient removal filtrations.

3. People just go WAY too fast. They want their algae gone like yesterday ( I get it ). It is best to go low and slow and work your dosing up so you can stay on top of your nutrients and adjust them up or down as needed. Nothing good happens fast with reef tanks. Not sure if you saw the videos that Ryan at BRS put out about Vibrant but he explains this very well :)

With all of this said, we have literally dosed hundreds of tanks long term over the years and have never had a cyano or dino outbreak. If people follow the three things listed above, they will have great success with Vibrant.
Doesn’t point 1 and 3 kind of disagree? What would be the best way to explain to members that is not the final stage of nutrients that feeds the algae? I find that to many hobbiest still bottom out nutrients every day in hope to kill Nuisance algae.
 

ScottR

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Doesn’t point 1 and 3 kind of disagree? What would be the best way to explain to members that is not the final stage of nutrients that feeds the algae.
I believe point one is that the bacteria actually eat the algae and vibrant doesn’t bottom out nutrients. You should aim to keep nutrients in a safe zone so that you neither bottom out nor overdo it, thus causing a crazy algae problem. Then when people go overboard, they probably tend to overdose vibrant thinking: it’s either not working or I need more.

In addition - I just got a bottle dosed for the first time today. I am using less than recommended as I only have a little GHA that I don’t want to grow out of control. Although the GHA seems to be replacing what was once dinos. Bittersweet victory as of now.
 

sixty_reefer

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I believe point one is that the bacteria actually eat the algae and vibrant doesn’t bottom out nutrients. You should aim to keep nutrients in a safe zone so that you neither bottom out nor overdo it, thus causing a crazy algae problem. Then when people go overboard, they probably tend to overdose vibrant thinking: it’s either not working or I need more.

In addition - I just got a bottle dosed for the first time today. I am using less than recommended as I only have a little GHA that I don’t want to grow out of control. Although the GHA seems to be replacing what was once dinos. Bittersweet victory as of now.
This is where I get confused Scott, am not aware of any algae that eats live algae. And if it didn’t affect nutrients there was no issues with overdosing imo. Just trying to understand by no means am not saying the product dosing work as it seems to be a effectively way to rid of nuisance algae
 

ScottR

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This is where I get confused Scott, am not aware of any algae that eats live algae. And if it didn’t affect nutrients there was no issues with overdosing imo. Just trying to understand by no means am not saying the product dosing work as it seems to be a effectively way to rid of nuisance algae
I believe vibrant is a heterotrophic bacteria meaning it is not an algae but actually eats an organic carbon source such as living plants (algae). So it actually eats the algae instead of controlling the nutrients that algae eat. A predator of algae basically. But I can see how they can turn onto corals if overdosed. Perhaps they can feed on the zooxanthellae because they are similar to algae and photosynthesize their energy just like algae does.
 

sixty_reefer

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I believe vibrant is a heterotrophic bacteria meaning it is not an algae but actually eats an organic carbon source such as living plants (algae). So it actually eats the algae instead of controlling the nutrients that algae eat. A predator of algae basically. But I can see how they can turn onto corals if overdosed. Perhaps they can feed on the zooxanthellae because they are similar to algae and photosynthesize their energy just like algae does.
I suspect it works in a different way, most marine macroalgae are made of carbon, nitrogen, phosphorus, amino acids fatty acids and vitamins. In the event of any off the above being depleted from the water column the algae will start to die off and as that happens bacteria will start to break it down back to carbon, nitrogen, phosphorus, aminos, fatty acids and vitamins. Bacteria cultures will transform carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus and the protein skimmer will remove the rest. Bringing the balance back. This process can take sometime just a week to happen.
 

VJM 21

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I had cyano. Cyano smothered out a lot of good stuff. Used chemiclean and it worked perfectly and then dinos came in the absence of competition.
I’m experiencing the same thing. Cyano was starting to smother some corals, and the chemiclean treatment resulted in Dinos (which, of course, killed corals). Currently battling a hair or turf algae outbreak following the Dino demise, mixed with a ton of diatoms. Are you documenting your treatment with vibrant on another thread? I’d like to follow.
 

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