Why cant u keep sps?

[drawman]

Reread this thread and I can self diagnose as an experienced reef keeper that keeps beating their head against the wall with a newer tank. Successful tanks for me in the past had big sandbeds and live rocks that served as nutrient, microbial, and microfauna sinks. My current tank is barebottom with minimal rock and an aim for a high flow dynamic environment. I would love to increase my fish load but with the recent state of things as well as an upcoming move to Nebraska fish purchases will have to wait a few months. Once I'm settled in Nebraska I'm going to go full @Chaswood79 and load my tank up with fish. I will also try to rework my sump to get more rock in. I've previously used Siporax but that has worked too well at lowering nutrients (without carbon dosing) for me so I want to stay away from media.

In the meantime I'm going to continue to increase my autofeeder and may try to make my own frozen food (or at least feed LRS more often).

I figure I will throw my hat into the ring of a struggling SPS tank. @LARedstickreefer how are you still liking the ZeoBak? I figure giving it a try at the worst may be just another experiment. I would rather raise nutrients slightly so a carbon source such as Zeostart would not be helpful unless I overfeed the crap out of my tank and start to redline things. @ycnibrc do you feel that ZeoBak alone is helpful?

 

[ycnibrc]

Reread this thread and I can self diagnose as an experienced reef keeper that keeps beating their head against the wall with a newer tank. Successful tanks for me in the past had big sandbeds and live rocks that served as nutrient, microbial, and microfauna sinks. My current tank is barebottom with minimal rock and an aim for a high flow dynamic environment. I would love to increase my fish load but with the recent state of things as well as an upcoming move to Nebraska fish purchases will have to wait a few months. Once I'm settled in Nebraska I'm going to go full @Chaswood79 and load my tank up with fish. I will also try to rework my sump to get more rock in. I've previously used Siporax but that has worked too well at lowering nutrients (without carbon dosing) for me so I want to stay away from media.

In the meantime I'm going to continue to increase my autofeeder and may try to make my own frozen food (or at least feed LRS more often).

I figure I will throw my hat into the ring of a struggling SPS tank. @LARedstickreefer how are you still liking the ZeoBak? I figure giving it a try at the worst may be just another experiment. I would rather raise nutrients slightly so a carbon source such as Zeostart would not be helpful unless I overfeed the crap out of my tank and start to redline things. @ycnibrc do you feel that ZeoBak alone is helpful?

If u dont want full zeovit. U can just do zeobak and zeostart3

 

[drawman]

If u dont want full zeovit. U can just do zeobak and zeostart3

You wouldn't recommend Zeobak without Zeostart? Is the Zeobak bacteria only used for carbon dosing then?

 

[ycnibrc]

You wouldn't recommend Zeobak without Zeostart? Is the Zeobak bacteria only used for carbon dosing then?

Zeobak is microorganisms. Zeostart3 is bacteria culture aka vodka, sugar, nopox. Your fish and coral will appreciate zeostart3 since it will keep nitrate n phospate and amonia low. Zeobak is more for the biology of the tank eco system.

 

[Robs Reef]

Well first and for most im not a scientist or marine biologist my theory base only on my experience and observation on my reef tank. I just want to help those that have problems keeping sps. In this discussion please keep it positive and dont make it to “i know better than u or led is better than halide “. We are not here to discuss equipment or brand.
Now lets me start out what i have seen so far. I have successful sps tank in 2008 and now i just start my tank again for 2.5years. U can read more here

Build Thread - 360g zeovit staghorn dominate reef tank

Do you think the halide just doesn’t show the colors as well as the LEDs, or do the colors physically change once you switch? (Currently running a 150w MH)

www.reef2reef.com

Most of the threads that have problems seem to have a common denominator i will cone back to this. But all the questions regarding the problem tank are
1)Whats your parameters
2)what kind of light/light schedule?
3)what kind of pump and flow?
4)keep alk, ca and mag stable
5) ICP test
6)nitrate/phosphate level
7)water change
8)feeding
9)copper/iron over dose aka magnet rust
10)salt

Ok lets presume u can fix all of these but still your tank don’t do well. What can cause that?
Well lets go back to the common denominators. All tank nowadays start with dry/dead rock aka not from the ocean. Live rock can be misunderstood, a piece of rock in my mature tank i can call it live rock but its not because i start just like everyone else with dry rock. Years ago we actually get live rock from the ocean which carry multiple strain of beneficial bacteria then we kept it in our tank for a year or more which create a nice population of bacteria for the corals especially sps.
Now we all start from dry rock and we started the cycle then start adding corals in after 6 mons. Presumption your tank parameters are good also everything else , your frags will be nice and growing for a few months then all of a sudden start to look bad then die normally around 9 mons to a year. This too me is an indication thats your tank dont have multiple bacteria strain which corals need. Probably u didnt add any additional bacteria to your tank and im not talking about carbon bacteria to reduce phosphate or nitrate.
Further more we buy only frags nowadays which different from before when we bought colonies. Wild colonies from the ocean carry those beneficial bacteria which can populate in your tank. I run zeovit which is a system heavily base on bacteria but there are many others system which offer the same.
So to end my thoughts the biggest change that i have seen is the lacking of beneficial bacteria which can cause your reef tank not capable to sustain a healthy sps.
I hope that i can help in anyway getting your tank better and healthier and with healthy tank make the hobby more enjoyable and grow

Anthony

So your saying to have a successful sps dominated tank, Its best to start with live rock and not dry rock, to have the beneficial bacterial load to support sps growth? Interesting...

 

[kapnkush608]

Zeobak is microorganisms. Zeostart3 is bacteria culture aka vodka, sugar, nopox. Your fish and coral will appreciate zeostart3 since it will keep nitrate n phospate and amonia low. Zeobak is more for the biology of the tank eco system.

Would it be necessary if I'm already dosing Vinegar? (Zeostart)

 

[willieboy240]

So your saying to have a successful sps dominated tank, Its best to start with live rock and not dry rock, to have the beneficial bacterial load to support sps growth? Interesting...

Mike palletta said when he started with dead rock. He noticed that his 6 month to 1 year tank. All his sps would live a month then die. He spoke with his friends in Europe and they said the same thing was happening to them. Mike said that after building up his bio. He didn’t have that problem anymore.

 

[Robs Reef]

Mike palletta said when he started with dead rock. He noticed that his 6 month to 1 year tank. All his sps would live a month then die. He spoke with his friends in Europe and they said the same thing was happening to them. Mike said that after building up his bio. He didn’t have that problem anymore.

Oh ok, Mike reached out to me the other day but I'm not from Europe, I'm from California. Every system is different, I started with dry rock 16 months ago and my system is thriving. It's all about ionic balance, sps is actually a very forgiving coral, but the water has to be on point, adaptability and stability long term is key.

 

[ycnibrc]

Would it be necessary if I'm already dosing Vinegar? (Zeostart)

If your nutrients are in good shape then u dont have to. However the different between vinegar and zeostart3 is vinegar has single strain of bacteria and zeostart3 has multiple. Vinegar bacteria is good for reducing nitrate but not phosphate.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

If your nutrients are in good shape then u dont have to. However the different between vinegar and zeostart3 is vinegar has single strain of bacteria and zeostart3 has multiple. Vinegar bacteria is good for reducing nitrate but not phosphate.

Zeostart3 reduces phosphate? I better start dosing it again, my Hanna ULR water is turning blue.

 

[ycnibrc]

So your saying to have a successful sps dominated tank, Its best to start with live rock and not dry rock, to have the beneficial bacterial load to support sps growth? Interesting...

Not just sps tank any reef tank if u remember when we have real live rock from the ocean people have problem in the early stage like 0 to 6 months but when tank reach 1 year then the tank is ready and we can keep sps successfully. Forward to now the scenario is back ward. Most reefer start out ok 3 to 6 months then when it reach close to 1 year then problem start. If you start your tank with all dry rock and don't add any beneficial bacteria and microorganisms then your tank will act like a fowlr

 

[ycnibrc]

To make it clear I'm not advocate for zeovit. I only want to tell everyone the reef tank need more bio diversity. U can add bacteria to your tank in many way and zeo is for my tank. There are others manefacture have the same thing like aquaforest, redsea , fauna Marin etc.....

 

[User1]

Mike palletta said when he started with dead rock. He noticed that his 6 month to 1 year tank. All his sps would live a month then die. He spoke with his friends in Europe and they said the same thing was happening to them. Mike said that after building up his bio. He didn’t have that problem anymore.

This is pretty much correct. I can't speak for Mike but I can tell you based on my experience of using dry rock you are looking at least a year before you "should" attempt any SPS corals test corals. Different types of rock may increase that duration by a year such as Pukani (although not offered as much if at all anymore). Pukani is known to leach phosphates well after the initial cycle has completed. Probably why when this rock was all the rage people would always recommend acid baths and parallel rock curing while the tank cycles.

Premium live rock say from TBS has been in the ocean anywhere from 1 to 2 years. Shipped air freight over night. No die off. No cycle. You cannot get rock like that in a closed system in a shorter amount of time. Nothing in a bottle. Nothing in a pill form. It takes similar amount of time.

This is coming from someone who just reached their 2 year mark using 150 LBS of dry pukani rock in an upgrade. Cheaper entry point but would never recommend it.

 

[Zoajohn]

Discovered that too much flow was the reason for my sps being irritated for months. I was running my mp10 at 85-90% reef crest on my nuvo 30L. After reading a thread on FB about user mp10 settings on that tank, almost all ran theirs between 40-60%. Not 24hrs later my sps are all fully extended and looking much happier. Too much flow is definitely a thing.

 

[Rick5]

This is related to several of the ideas referenced in this thread, so I thought I’d contribute and provide an update as things progress or regress (which remains to be seen).

I started my tank (approximately 60 gallons in water volume) with dry rock. I inoculated the dry rock with an assortment of bottled bacteria and, after nearly a year or more, developed a respectable SPS collection ranging from old school classics to many newer pieces. The tank was eventually overrun with dinoflagellates, which I eventually conquered, after it eradicated my entire SPS collection (which I previously posted about on this forum). Fast forward many months later with aged dry rock (2 years roughly) and one of the things I previously did as part of my dinoflagellates eradication approach and thereafter was increase nutrients which, of course, resulted in the dry rock absorbing/binding phosphate and then releasing the phosphate, thereby continuing to "pollute" the tank's water. In the process of dosing lathum chloride in order to release the phosphate the dry rock absorbed, I ended up with a second wave of dinoflagellates or some kind of invasive algae (roughly 8 months after I eradicated the initial wave of dinoflagellates). I don’t have a microscope so I cannot provide actual identification of the pest, but it behaves like dinoflagellates and has once again decimated a large number of SPS.

As a last-ditch effort, I ordered 35 lbs. of uncured live rock from KP Aquatics (which I believe is dry rock that was left to sit in the ocean) and is the closest I am able to get to real live rock. I placed the new rock in a large trash can to address the die off. Ordinarily, I would have let the rock cure/die off for months, but given the dire state of the SPS in my tank, I pulled the dry rock out of my tank and replaced it with the live rock (after only a week of curing) and I leveraged a bit of Prime (water conditioner) to temporarily neutralize any ammonia, given that the dinoflagellates were quickly smothering my SPS. The SPS stopped dying and a little less than a month has elapsed since I switched out the dry rock. At this point, the back wall and (new) rock are covered in the dinoflagellates but, again, the tissue necrosis has seemingly stopped, which is reassuring.

I have also ordered a 1 gallon container of Fritz (Fritzyme 9) in the hopes that it may once again help eradicate the dinoflagellates remnants (and have continued to run a 10w pond UV). In the interim, I am also feeding generously (while trying to avoid overfeeding and having the rock bind a ton of phosphate again). The tank’s nutrients are too low, as far as I’m concerned, in this dry rock riddled world, with a recent reading of 2.5 nitrate and .009 phosphate. I don’t run a skimmer anymore and I use sea lettuce and some chaeto for nutrient export. I am not performing water changes for the time-being. Interestingly, the pest (unlike my earlier/first wave of dinoflagellates), is being picked at by some fish and some of my clean up crew. For that reason, I ordered a couple of urchins, astrea snails, scarlet hermit crabs and cerith snails.

Granted, I am not performing double blind studies or operating a scientific study of any kind, growing SPS used to be easy and the only thing I am doing differently these days is/has been the use of dry rock. It will be interesting to see what happens here with the new rock.

 

[KimG]

This is related to several of the ideas referenced in this thread, so I thought I’d contribute and provide an update as things progress or regress (which remains to be seen).

I started my tank (approximately 60 gallons in water volume) with dry rock. I inoculated the dry rock with an assortment of bottled bacteria and, after nearly a year or more, developed a respectable SPS collection ranging from old school classics to many newer pieces. The tank was eventually overrun with dinoflagellates, which I eventually conquered, after it eradicated my entire SPS collection (which I previously posted about on this forum). Fast forward many months later with aged dry rock (2 years roughly) and one of the things I previously did as part of my dinoflagellates eradication approach and thereafter was increase nutrients which, of course, resulted in the dry rock absorbing/binding phosphate and then releasing the phosphate, thereby continuing to "pollute" the tank's water. In the process of dosing lathum chloride in order to release the phosphate the dry rock absorbed, I ended up with a second wave of dinoflagellates or some kind of invasive algae (roughly 8 months after I eradicated the initial wave of dinoflagellates). I don’t have a microscope so I cannot provide actual identification of the pest, but it behaves like dinoflagellates and has once again decimated a large number of SPS.

As a last-ditch effort, I ordered 35 lbs. of uncured live rock from KP Aquatics (which I believe is dry rock that was left to sit in the ocean) and is the closest I am able to get to real live rock. I placed the new rock in a large trash can to address the die off. Ordinarily, I would have let the rock cure/die off for months, but given the dire state of the SPS in my tank, I pulled the dry rock out of my tank and replaced it with the live rock (after only a week of curing) and I leveraged a bit of Prime (water conditioner) to temporarily neutralize any ammonia, given that the dinoflagellates were quickly smothering my SPS. The SPS stopped dying and a little less than a month has elapsed since I switched out the dry rock. At this point, the back wall and (new) rock are covered in the dinoflagellates but, again, the tissue necrosis has seemingly stopped, which is reassuring.

I have also ordered a 1 gallon container of Fritz (Fritzyme 9) in the hopes that it may once again help eradicate the dinoflagellates remnants (and have continued to run a 10w pond UV). In the interim, I am also feeding generously (while trying to avoid overfeeding and having the rock bind a ton of phosphate again). The tank’s nutrients are too low, as far as I’m concerned, in this dry rock riddled world, with a recent reading of 2.5 nitrate and .009 phosphate. I don’t run a skimmer anymore and I use sea lettuce and some chaeto for nutrient export. I am not performing water changes for the time-being. Interestingly, the pest (unlike my earlier/first wave of dinoflagellates), is being picked at by some fish and some of my clean up crew. For that reason, I ordered a couple of urchins, astrea snails, scarlet hermit crabs and cerith snails.

Granted, I am not performing double blind studies or operating a scientific study of any kind, growing SPS used to be easy and the only thing I am doing differently these days is/has been the use of dry rock. It will be interesting to see what happens here with the new rock.

I believe you might have hit the nail in the head there. When I first started my tank last year it was live rock. We got a lot of pests but corals grew like crazy. First sps went in in the first month. First acro two months in. Everything grew awesomely.
Because of the pests we decided to restart with dry rock, assuming similar results. Lost most of the sps's in on month and since then we can't keep them. Algae problems (including dinos) have also come along.
While all parameters look good we struggle to keep nitrate and speciality phosphate up. I'm currently dosing phosphate everyday (equivalent to 0.05 mg per liter) and it still reads almost 0 all the time. No skimmer, only a small diy ats.
I believe the live rocks provide beneficial bacteria, but also balance the nutrient's, releasing them if there is too little in the water phase. I have the feeling most of us are bottoming out on the phosphate (or potentially other micro nutrient's) that are being absorbed by the rock.

 

[Marc2952]

does anyone here have high levels of aluminum and antimony? The only issue that came back from the icp test was that. I cant even keep some lps ( they do polyp bailout ) the sps i jave tried like birdsnest and montipora usually only last about 3 weeks before they start to lose color then just bleach out. Im using kessil a360x on my tank and get an average PAR of 350 on upper rocks and 200 on sandbed.

 

[RyanHoan]

Just a few random questions I have:

1) When I add SPS frags to my tank, it seems like the Millis always brown out, while the other acros keep their color. Is this a common observation?


2) when I ad a pack from frags from one source, there always seems to be one or two frags that never have polyp extension, and fade away. I keep them in all high flow and high light. They don't bleach, but they just don't do well and eventually die in a few months. Should I be doing something more proactive? Perhaps dipping them again, or moving them around the tank?

Thanks!

 

[ycnibrc]

if only a few frags don't do well than others then thinking logically is those 2 frags are weak to begin with. If youR water can keep other Sps alive then It should be good because salt water don't have specific species preference. Some other factors like flow, light, temp or chemical in your tank can have effect on certain Sps. The most common theme I see on the forum is your case. Reefer have too much concern when 1 or 2 piece don't do well, trust me even the best Sps tank some frags will die . If your water is bad then all Sps will suffer color lost or stop growing

 

[Marc2952]

@ycnibrc hey do you think zeobak will help add different bacteria? I cant seem to keep any sps or even lps. Everything came good from the icp except elevated levels of aluminum ( due to marine pure blocks) and very high levels of antimony which i have no idea how it got to the system.
Parameters
Alk 8.6
Cal:440
MG:1400
N03:10
PO:0.08 ( gotta keep dinos at bay)
Salinity:1.025
Running 4 kessil a360x on the 75 gallon at %50 intensity( had to lower it to 50 because my scoly was dying off and other lps where retracted) i have the typical 12 hr light schedule with 1 hour ramp up and 1 hr ramp down).