Why do some thread participants find it necessary to put others on blast?

[jda]

I used to give a speech similar to this when I had a large group of people who worked for me. I asked them to always quantify their thoughts in these levels, and with nuance.

Data - nearly worthless, but you have to have it. In this hobby, it is early experience and also what you read. Singular anecdotes are in here.
Information - accumulation of data along with experience that starts to lead towards trends that most see and can learn from. Accumulation of anecdotes - these can be strong.
Knowledge - those with information interacting together and challenging each other. You can get this at conferences, club meetings (sometimes), etc. These people have strong beliefs but will change them in a heartbeat if they need to - they know that knowledge changes.

Experience and true interaction is the key to the succession. Telling people what to do, reading and not doing anything yourself means nearly nothing (except to those on this level who cannot see past what experience that they lack). Those who once did and left the hobby can still be of tremendous benefit, IMO.

In the end, I try and figure out if the poster has data, information or knowledge.

I admit that I sometimes can dig in too hard when I see that somebody's post could cause harm to others - I knew in 2015 that Vibrant was algaecide and while I posted about it (and got ridiculed or clowned a lot), I regret not posting more strongly since tanks did get hurt. I have strong opinions on why I reef the way that I reef. I also try and interact with others and understand how they reef since I will change if I need to. I do usually try and state the basis for my posts - for example, I have been very critical of reefing company supplement manufacturers lately, but I try and post that it is all just my opinion and why I feel that way... no facts or anything.

 

[Reefer Matt]

And that is what I find so puzzling; R2R administration goes through great lengths to makes us aware of those guidelines.

And when the OP gets blasted in a response, I feel it is a display of an attitude that they are above the rules.

Yeah, egos tend to get inflated over time. This is a privately owned forum, and the owner has the right and responsibility to set and enforce their rules. But they can’t be everywhere at once, and rely on us to help them sometimes. Some call it snitching, some call it being a community. I wouldn’t be timid about reporting though, the staff actually do care.

 

[rhitee93]

Novice reef keeper here, but long time student and expert on many hobby related forums. I'll share a couple of observations that I haven't seen discussed in this thread yet.

It is the nature of these forums for experts to get burned out sharing their knowledge with novices. A well thought out response takes quite a lot of effort, and articles or tutorials take much more. Having to answer the same questions all the time, sometimes with a novice arguing back eventually gets to even the best.

I've always felt it was the role of the intermediate folks on a forum to step up and help with the simpler questions to help should the load caused by the true beginner. Personally, I try to start my responses with some indication of my level of expertise.

One other point is that written communication is difficult. My wife is a speech language pathologist, and tells me that well over 90% of what we communicate in person comes from something other than the words we use. That means we are all trying to discuss complex topics with less than 10% of the bandwidth we are accustomed to. Add on different native languages and customs and we really have the deck stacked against us.

 

[jda]

I will say that the best of the best in nearly any walk of life NEVER care how somebody says something and focus on what they say. Not many do this when they are on the receiving end of advice, but they all want it to stick when they are giving the advice. I personally do not care about tone, intention or whatever... I want the meat of the discussion and will still get into it even if the other person is acting in a way that some consider rude.

Some of the best things that anyone can every receive (tough love, hard truths, etc.) often come cold and unapologetic, but they are critical if you want any growth - the are not actually cold and unapologetic since if somebody is taking the time to deliver these thing, then they really care... because real leadership hurts and costs. The weak deny them and do not accept, and usually due to the tone or rudeness, which is dumb. The strong accept these. The super strong might even thank you.

 

[Tavero]

I used to give a speech similar to this when I had a large group of people who worked for me. I asked them to always quantify their thoughts in these levels, and with nuance.

Data - nearly worthless, but you have to have it. In this hobby, it is early experience and also what you read. Singular anecdotes are in here.
Information - accumulation of data along with experience that starts to lead towards trends that most see and can learn from. Accumulation of anecdotes - these can be strong.
Knowledge - those with information interacting together and challenging each other. You can get this at conferences, club meetings (sometimes), etc. These people have strong beliefs but will change them in a heartbeat if they need to - they know that knowledge changes.

Experience and true interaction is the key to the succession. Telling people what to do, reading and not doing anything yourself means nearly nothing (except to those on this level who cannot see past what experience that they lack). Those who once did and left the hobby can still be of tremendous benefit, IMO.

In the end, I try and figure out if the poster has data, information or knowledge.

I admit that I sometimes can dig in too hard when I see that somebody's post could cause harm to others - I knew in 2015 that Vibrant was algaecide and while I posted about it (and got ridiculed or clowned a lot), I regret not posting more strongly since tanks did get hurt. I have strong opinions on why I reef the way that I reef. I also try and interact with others and understand how they reef since I will change if I need to. I do usually try and state the basis for my posts - for example, I have been very critical of reefing company supplement manufacturers lately, but I try and post that it is all just my opinion and why I feel that way... no facts or anything.

No I agree with you here.
Sometimes being too careful about not hurting someone feelings may be the wrong way to avoid damage.
Nowadays many people are offended so fast, sometimes I wonder how they survive criticism at work.

 

[Ken101Ward]

Cause some people can't handle their balance of the ID, Ego, and the Superego.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

I can’t really think of any interactions I’ve had here where the other person came across as rude or condescending. I certainly hope I don’t come across as rude or condescending, and if I do, I hope people would call me out for it. But I guess I can see some of those interactions playing out on here.

I am not an expert by any means. I have a lot of experience, but that doesn’t equate to me being an expert. As such, I am hesitant to advise beyond some very basic stuff.

Having said all that, there is very little absolute fact in reef keeping. We are dealing with animals that have been around for roughly 500 million years and have seen it all and lived to tell about it countless times. With that comes both high diversity and adaptability.

High diversity + high adaptability = no set-in-stone set of conditions that satisfies every single organism.

There is a relatively broad range of satisfactory conditions for most corals, but I have seen people here go on the offensive about other people’s parameters when I factually know the parameters they’re saying are terrible are actually quite acceptable, and that the problem with the animal probably has some other cause.

Sorry…0.06ppm PO4 is not killing off anybody’s corals

 

[jda]

No I agree with you here.
Sometimes being too careful about not hurting someone feelings may be the wrong way to avoid damage.
Nowadays many people are offended so fast, sometimes I wonder how they survive criticism at work.

My post above just crossed paths with this. Not all of them do survive... most, probably. The good ones eventually get it. You can tell right away, but we never gave up on the rest of them - many will eventually deal with helpful criticism even if they don't get all of the way there.

High level sports can help people, but mostly kids and young adults. Good coaches can be like this. I have Division 1 athletes in sports with no/limited professional leagues or careers. The ultimate example of this are the parents and athletes who react to being in shape. These coaches have nice jobs in college towns and only care about performance. Coach tells a kid that they are carrying too much weight to play XYZ at ABC level. Soft parents and kid go straight to mental healty and body shaming and say that this is no fair - coach is mean. Strong parents and/or kid know that this is just about performance and being faster, lighter and having more strength to mass helps them do their jobs on the field better - coach is helping them.

We had a dude who was really good at high severity software outages. After a few experiences, I told him that he could not eat or drink while he was dealing with one - he was always spilling his drink or food on his equipment and one time he actually smoked out a card in his tower in the middle of having a few million customers without service. He got it - I needed him at 100% for these few hours and he had failed before. He was totally cool. A few others on the team set up meeting with me and wanted me to go easy on him and that what I was doing was mean and unfair. Guess who ended up being really great and who was middling?

In general, if somebody is taking the time to help you, they are giving you something special. Embrace it and ignore any internal feelings about the delivery. This is different that somebody who just wants to ***** and moan without helping at all - you can ignore all of this.

 

[Sophie"s mom]

Agree. Many times I have found posts where people are shopping for the answer that want to hear and not the correct answer. It is hard to be patient with people like this. But when I find myself becoming impatient, I "unwatch" the thread and let others with more patience than I continue to support.

But I don't agree that "people giving bad advice need landed on with both feet".

I feel it is important to remain aware that sometimes, people want to be helpful. And the information they provide is provided with good intentions.

Why can't someone more knowledgable first try to politely correct the person behind the post, "land on them with both feet" only when they clearly need it?

I agree! Also we all know what works for one, may not give the same results to another, meaning some may be speaking from personal experience, not just bad, read misinformation. When people are on here just looking for someone to say what they want to hear, rather than the truth, sure let them know! But there are many here (myself included) who came here to learn, and get to know others in the hobby.

 

[jda]

I will say that the notion that every reef is different and that there are a million ways to skin a reef does not help. Yes, all of this is true. However, a lot of these things are outliers. This type of statement also requires deeper levels of thought than some are capable of. I have always said that most SUCCESSFUL and MATURE reefs do about 90% of the same things, or more. It is hard that the outliers often intrigue people or some of the advice given is not from people who have seen the whole maturity process.

For example, you don't have to run a skimmer, but most SUCCESSFUL and MATURE tanks have a way to export organics, remove toxic metals and perform gas exchange. An argument might focus on the tool, but at the root, they are doing the same thing - the surface is easy to argue about, but the root is what matters and is a more difficult conversation. One might come along with no export of organics nor toxic metals and declare victory at 3 or 6 months, but this is meaningless on the surface or root, IMO.

 

[nicodim55]

Childish mentality

 

[Antaguana]

I wonder how they survive criticism at work.

They don't... It is not just the world of hobbies where people refuse to accept criticism.

Some people are very good at "stepping on toes" and some people have "very large feet"

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

I will say that the notion that every reef is different and that there are a million ways to skin a reef does not help. Yes, all of this is true. However, a lot of these things are outliers. This type of statement also requires deeper levels of thought than some are capable of. I have always said that most SUCCESSFUL and MATURE reefs do about 90% of the same things, or more. It is hard that the outliers often intrigue people or some of the advice given is not from people who have seen the whole maturity process.

For example, you don't have to run a skimmer, but most SUCCESSFUL and MATURE tanks have a way to export organics, remove toxic metals and perform gas exchange. An argument might focus on the tool, but at the root, they are doing the same thing - the surface is easy to argue about, but the root is what matters and is a more difficult conversation. One might come along with no export of organics nor toxic metals and declare victory at 3 or 6 months, but this is meaningless on the surface or root, IMO.

I can say this with certainty, after setting up hundreds of reef tanks:

I can set up 5 tanks all right next to each other, all set up exactly the same way, put all of the same animals in them, do all of the exact same things to manage them, and all 5 will have different outcomes.

Then, I can set one up ‘correctly’ and set another one up ‘incorrectly’, and have the incorrect tank do better.

Experiencing that led to me just letting go of reef keeping rules.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I will say that the notion that every reef is different and that there are a million ways to skin a reef does not help. Yes, all of this is true. However, a lot of these things are outliers.

That idea taken too far concerns me as well. It implies that anything is possible, when many times what it means is there was a mistest, a misinterpretation, or something else amiss aside from just the tank being different.

A perfect example is someone saying magnesium is depleting at 10 ppm per day in their aquarium. No matter what the aquarium is, that isn't real. Accepting that it happens in any tank may lead people to mistakenly think it might also happen in their tank. So they do not even ask about it when they get such a result, they just proceed to keep dumping in magnesium to offset the "consumption".

I realize that knowing what is possible, what is improbable, and what is purely impossible can be very challenging for reefers, and not only new reefers. Drilling down on these sorts of questions is the beauty of a forum as opposed to a blog or a video, where no one can challenge the initial assertion.

It can also be very important to try to understand what is different about different tanks that may make some methods suitable and others unsuitable. At least from the chemistry side, it is not just random. For example, the idea that one can can add hydroxide as an alk additive to target only pH and not by alk control will work in some scenarios, and not in others. It's not random, but it may take some discussion to see if it will work in a given aquarium. Just showing one great tank doing it does not mean it is a suitable idea for others.

 

[brandon429]

let the record reflect I thought he wrote this thread in response to my mean post telling all the article and book writers on algae control they're welcome to come do live time work in the nuisance algae forum five years ago and that I know exactly whey they have not ever been there


it's funny how one light drawstroke/a post title/ makes the guilty out themselves.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Am I correct in my thinking that you (and others like you) find it frustrating having to answer the same questions and refute the same misinformation year after year?

I knew going in that challenging misinformation was a part of the role, ever since being a moderator at Compuserve Fishnet. Most folks do not have the background to challenge some of these issues, and so those of us who do have somewhat of a responsibility to help out.

 

[Pistondog]

Cause some people can't handle their balance of the ID, Ego, and the Superego.

In todays jargon, having to be the main character.

 

[jda]

I post a lot of the same things over and over. People did this for me in the early 1990s when I started out. I feel that I owe the same, somehow. I sent a few emails to Fenner and he answered me and did not tell me to just search WWM, for example.

Maybe just too many people are on my lawn, but it felt like back then the web was an extension of people and not their whole identity. The got online to help, seek help and to interact. It was not their whole personality that identifies them. People seemed to get less hurt and stuff. There are people on here just to feel important, flex and all of that which is a hard adjustment for me to deal with. (edit: the main character posted above)

IMO, it is important to push back on some thing. I knew that Vibrant was algaecide in 2015 and while I did post about it (and got clowned and ridiculed by MANY), I wish that I would have pushed back more. Tanks and animals did get hurt. I feel the same is true about reefers who give bad advice - I often stop talking to them and to the others that might be reading. Some have messaged me that I am a jerk - happy to wear this if I need to.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I knew going in that challenging misinformation was a part of the role,

I think that is what many of us struggle with and some have a better temperament and personality at overcoming the challenge than others. Dr. House vs Mr Rogers kinda thing.

 

[ChrisPPolys]