Why Do We Continue To Buy Frags?

[sghera64]

It’s been a long time since my last Econ course. But the answer to the OP’s question seems to be an elastic market for common corals (supply and demand set the price in a free market). It appears to be an inelastic market for “rare” or special corals - sort of like rare diamonds.

 

[Biokabe]

Good post, but you've gotta be fair here. It goes both ways.

Store owners want to maximize their profits, customers want to minimize profits (i.e. buy it at cost). Both of these are natural and defensible goals. But you only defend the shop owners' goals; why? This is an endless and inevitable dance between buyers and sellers. Neither side is right or wrong, but pretending one side is acting nobly and one side is acting selfishly is silly. Both sides are acting out of greed.

The appropriate price for anything is a compromise: more than the buyer wants to pay but less than the seller wants to make. Given a fair market with enough transparency, prices will over time reach this compromise point.

I have nothing against frags. Frags are great, for many reasons already discussed in this thread. My only problem is with frags that cost more than $20.

I defend the shop owner's goals for a simple reason; this entire thread was started on the premise that shop owners are greedily exploiting hobbyists by primarily selling frags, and naive reefkeepers are allowing themselves to be fleeced by buying frags. There's been plenty of defending of the customer's goals in this thread - we all want corals for less than we currently pay for them! But frankly, being dismayed at the price of coral is a losing battle. Don't like the price? Don't buy it. No one is forced to buy frags, colonies or anything else in this hobby. Hobbyist goods are not a need, like food, health care or housing. And however much I might want to buy a Homewrecker frag for $75, the fact remains that there's someone out there who's willing to pay $750 for that same frag. Why should the shop owner feel obligated to sell that coral for less than he could get out of it? Yes, shop owners want to make as much as they can. And shoppers want to pay as little as they can. As you say, both are natural and defensible, yet most of the frag-complainers talk as if it's only the shopkeeper's greed that prevents frags from going to whatever they feel is the appropriate price. In fact, it's the hobbyists themselves who have driven the price up.

If people weren't buying those Homewrecker frags at $750/ea, then they wouldn't exist. Price would come down, some percentage of farmers would decide it wasn't worth the effort, and we'd have fewer corals to buy. But regardless of what you feel a coral frag is worth ("No more than $20"), enough buyers disagree with you to keep the price above that, especially for more desirable specimens. Your own refusal to spend more than $20 on a frag does play into the price of frags - there's a booming market for budget frags. No-name acropora, common zoas, leather corals, xenia, GSP, some acan color morphs, some lobos, favia, war corals, some chalices - there's no shortage of corals to be had, and plenty of them are quite beautiful. But there are also plenty of corals that command a higher price for whatever reason, and I don't see why people complain about their prices. It's like complaining about the existence of $10,000 suits while buying a $50 suit from the bargain rack.

 

[VR28man]

I myself like colonies and will buy them from individuals who have them as grow out, which are used to captive conditions

This. You have to be both patient and opportunstic to snatch these things from your local reef club, though. :D

 

[vetteguy53081]

This. You have to be both patient and opportunstic to snatch these things from your local reef club, though. :D

You’re correct. I have three tanks and we have frag auctions st end of monthly meetings. I Always pick up frags. The colonies I get are generally from members shutting tanks down

 

[cancun]

I totally agree! I have never thought of buying from someone local until I started reading and posting on this thread! I usually just go to my LFS....but I was looking for a certain kind of coral at a reasonable price...my LFS has been over the top expensive lately.....so I posted in my local reef club forum on R2R yesterday. A nice guy sent me a PM....he has what I was looking for and at a great price, and he lives only 10 minutes from my house!!!! Plus more stuff in his frag tank I want to check out! So thanks everyone for that great idea! I just never in all the years of having my tank..... thought of finding local reefers to buy coral from!!!! LOL! [emoji23] [emoji57][emoji2960]

 

[VR28man]

You’re correct. I have three tanks and we have frag auctions st end of monthly meetings. I Always pick up frags. The colonies I get are generally from members shutting tanks down

Ha ha, so true! Another alternative is to find club members with big colonies of corals that you like, and then stalk them for a bit until they grow too big and need to trim back.

in fact, I know somebody who has a huge tyree tricolor and I’m sure he’ll break off a decent sized colony. I guess now I’m just waiting for the right time for it.

thinking about it, I almost had the opportunity to get an entire green slimer colony a few months ago, but only took a few large (3”) frags. Or maybe u could call them mini colonies in the current economic environment……

 

[kenbut]

I partially agree. Frags are way overpriced for what they are and I have noticed LFS that used to sell a good range of small colonies( 3-4" )now chop them up for greater profit. When I first got into reefing the only frags you got were from fellow reefers, but now with the invention of social media they also are fragging purely for profit.
I can see a day when reef tanks will only be for the very rich, and normal people cant get a look in. Unfortunately here in Oz its already heading that way.

 

[Hermie]

I totally agree! I have never thought of buying from someone local until I started reading and posting on this thread! I usually just go to my LFS....but I was looking for a certain kind of coral at a reasonable price...my LFS has been over the top expensive lately.....so I posted in my local reef club forum on R2R yesterday. A nice guy sent me a PM....he has what I was looking for and at a great price, and he lives only 10 minutes from my house!!!! Plus more stuff in his frag tank I want to check out! So thanks everyone for that great idea! I just never in all the years of having my tank..... thought of finding local reefers to buy coral from!!!! LOL! [emoji23] [emoji57][emoji2960]

I've actually been really surprised how many people live near me (w/in 30 minutes) that have corals available, but some of the people bought their frags at super high prices and now expect to make a profit selling frags that have grown out. It really depends on the person.

 

[ReeferReefer]

You’re correct. I have three tanks and we have frag auctions st end of monthly meetings. I Always pick up frags. The colonies I get are generally from members shutting tanks down

I pretty much buy exclusively from my reef club. Only way to go these days.

 

[EHerbert]

I have to say I agree with the poster but for other reasons. I've been around this hobby since BP (Before Plugs). When coral was attached to a rock or lose making it much easier to place/relocate and you got a substantial piece, as well. I either have the LFS remove the plug or I do so myself when I get it home as, to me, it takes away from the natural look. I get the whole conservation thing and the fact that the LFS has to make a profit. But IMO 1 or 2 Zoa heads or a half inch stick on a plug for $30 to $50 plus is kinda extreme and almost offensive. And, 3 or 4 heads is not a colony. Luckily, here in Southern Cali I have many LFS to visit when I'm shopping coral and I have one in particular that does not use plugs at all. So I usually find something I'm pleased with. However, I can surely understand one's frustration if their LFS selection was limited. At the end of the day, we have the choice to purchase or not and if you put the same patience forth that we did when we were cycling our reefs, you'll find what you want at a cost that you're comfortable with.

 

[BryanD]

Its like everything else in this world. Seller's started doing it, and buyers bought it instead of putting our foots down. The freshwater livestock available the last 20 years is pathetic, I remember buying neon tetras that were an inch to inch and a half long for a decent price, now you get something in the range of a quarter inch for twice that price. Sumps with $50 worth of acrylic going for $400. If consumers are dumb enough to put down their money, some capitalist will take advantage of it.

 

[sc_reefer]

Not all LFS are the same TRSC Aauatics sells huge frags for super low prices.

 

[29galreefer]

Sorry, maybe in your market. I sell frags and colonies to my local FARMS. I ‘can’ also buy full colonies. All grown from frags. Been doing it for years. My local farm also has a retail store. They sell my colonies, and others, from other reefers. Always keeping them separate from their farmed frags. As they increase their farming capacity, based on online sales, they sell off former colonies that were once used to supply frags.

I suggest, anyone on this thread, who keeps telling suppliers what and how they should sell their corals, to start their own business. Competition is always a good thing. I’d also suggest you buy this book

In my area there isn’t enough hobbyists for that... but I wasn’t really saying that
I was saying most of the time those pieces will be expensive because they were either
1)harvested
2)raised in a tank for years to get to a large size (like you said)
While I understand you may sell to your LFS they still have to make profit and it won’t be super cheap

 

[EMeyer]

Its like everything else in this world. Seller's started doing it, and buyers bought it instead of putting our foots down.

This, exactly.

Every time these threads come up someone posts "why do you hate capitalism" or "its the free market baby". As if the consumer had no role in determining prices. (I guess the armchair economists skipped those lectures in their Econ classes)

Threads like this, discussions on social media, commenting on ridiculous frags prices in selling threads - these are the consumer putting his foot down. These arent idle complaining. These are signals from consumers.

Not to mention the absurd fallacy that the price of premium goods doesnt affect the price of budget goods in the same market sector. Yes, that $500 frag you bought affected the pricing of the budget frag I bought.

It is not only the right of consumers to complain about unfair prices, but actually their duty.

 

[HMpops]

In my area there isn’t enough hobbyists for that... but I wasn’t really saying that
I was saying most of the time those pieces will be expensive because they were either
1)harvested
2)raised in a tank for years to get to a large size (like you said)
While I understand you may sell to your LFS they still have to make profit and it won’t be super cheap

I agree with everything you’re saying. Except “Large colonies are cool but they are straight from the ocean”. Your statement is a singular fact. As you say,”in my area there isn’t enough hobbyist for that”. You’re making my point. Your ‘area’.
I live in Orlando, home of WWC. I can’t tell you their % of local sales vs online. But online is a huge business for them. As well as Top Shelf Aquatics.
My reply post wasn’t meant to be ‘completely’ at you. Or intended to be personal. I was addressing this topic, in general...IMHO.
Farming is growing, exponentially, as more and more companies, individuals, etc. get into coral propagation/production. Increasing their capacity. Combined with competition. The market price will eventually stabilize. Good reefing!!

 

[Heath Biggers]

A frag is all you need. It's either going to grow in your tank or it is not. I prefer to buy established lines that are a few generations removed from the wild and I know will do well.

 

[Cell]

Frags make sense to me for a variety of reasons. What doesn't make sense is the hobbyists selling them at retail price when they dont have the overhead of an actual business with a brick and mortar, employees, etc...

 

[Hermie]

Frags make sense to me for a variety of reasons. What doesn't make sense is the hobbyists selling them at retail price when they dont have the overhead of an actual business with a brick and mortar, employees, etc...

exactly, it's an insult and somewhat embarassing on behalf of the seller

 

[Cell]

exactly, it's an insult and somewhat embarassing on behalf of the seller

To be fair, we really should be blaming the buyers that support the inflated prices, but the hobby sellers could proactively dial down the greed imo. Not sure when the hobby went from spreading and sharing to being all about maximizing profits but it seems there is way more people trying to get rich than trying to grow the hobby.

 

[sp1187]

name the frag something fancy and add 50%+.