Why has no one brought the DSR products to the USA?

[Dkeller_nc]

If I had my way the products would already be used in my household and I would be running a full DSR reef just so I could throw it in everybody's face that I was on to something long before anyone was willing to make the effort to bring this absolutely amazing method to the states.
The problem I have is that I can't figure out anybody to import the products to me, I've been referred to seaflower and I have conversed with them to only be forgotten about. I was literally inches away from making a deal with them to import the products to me in they simply stopped responding so I have made my efforts.
Believe me as soon as the products are available in the United States I will be the 1st one making a purchase and if Glenn Fong would be willing to set me up I am more than willing to build the 1st DSR display tank in the United States for references. I have personally been back-and-forth with Glenn for the past 3 years but simply in unable to bring the products in to the United States from abroad.

If you choose to do it, you really don't need Glenn's products. He's very up-front about what he tests for, and what chemicals he doses and in what amounts. And all of those chemicals are primarily ionic salts, which are easy to obtain from lab supply companies. It helps to have a background in chemistry, but it's not strictly necessary; you need only teach yourself the basics of molecular weights - e.g., one mole of sodium chloride is 58.4 grams, a one molar solution of sodium chloride is 58.4 grams in one liter of water, etc...

 

[JasPR]

It IS a magnificent aquarium! Top notch.. Still, I'm reduced to two fundamental truths-- in a closed system, over time, certain wastes and byproducts build up and other compounds and elements decline-- the base line required is a species by species reality but generally speaking, we accept that 'fresh synthetic water change' is the RESET to ideal base line readings. It's pretty easy in nature with the realities of dilution factors, current and tide 'water changes' and macro eco-dynamics of omni present photosynthetic food chain species. In short, it might just be the resistance to swings in the baseline and the resistance to eutrophication is the TICKET and less the mass addition to favorable metabolic needs of desired species ( as they are present in supply with attention to the ideal baseline readings provided by reset water changes? how far you drift from these baseline readings is subtle wearing down over time of demanding species. Just a thought--- I know its bad for business and maybe an insult to the vanity obsessive end of the hobby, but its my opinion only

 

[rushbattle]

It IS a magnificent aquarium! Top notch.. Still, I'm reduced to two fundamental truths-- in a closed system, over time, certain wastes and byproducts build up and other compounds and elements decline-- the base line required is a species by species reality nut generally speaking we accept that 'fresh synthetic water changes' is the RESET to ideal base line readings. It's pretty easy in nature with the realities of dilution factors, current and tide 'water changes' and macro eco-dynamics of omni present photosynthetic food chain species. In short, it might just be the resistance to swings in the baseline and the resistance to eutrophication is the TICKET and less the mass addition to favorable metabolic needs of desired species ( as they are present in supply with attention to the ideal baseline readings provided by reset water changes? how far you drift from these baseline readings is subtle wearing down over time of demanding species. Just a thought--- I know its bad for business and maybe an insult to the vanity obsessive end of the hobby, but its my opinion only

What would be building up over time that needs reduction, and what ions would be depleting such that water needs to be exchanged? Most synthetic seawater is ionic only, no organic or other compounds.

 

[Land Shark]

I’ve purchased the complete DSR bundle pack from seaflowerstore.com but I only did this once. It was about a 4 month supply of everything needed.

https://www.seaflowerstore.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=DSR+

They accept payment using US currency with the usual US credit cards we all use. The currency conversion is done automatically.

So what was my issue? The supplements are reasonably priced but the shipping cost is/was too high for my taste. I paid $85 in shipping and that just doesn’t feel right in an era when shipping is often free of charge.

I will say that the DSR iron citrate solution, combined with the powerfilter, worked wonders on phosphate control and water clarity. Corals seemed happy too but I can’t say I used it long enough to make any claims. I have since been using triton products to save money but may go back to DSR products with ICP testing to keep things easy. From what I read, DSR combined with ICP testing is popular on the DSR forums.

 

[JasPR]

What would be building up over time that needs reduction, and what ions would be depleting such that water needs to be exchanged? Most synthetic seawater is ionic only, no organic or other compounds.

The aquarium hobby faces the challenge of being a closed system. It is also attempting to harness fundamental principles of biological processes such as the nitrification and denitrification cycle. At the heart of this, of course, is the nitrogen cycle and the build up of other biological metabolites. The the 'accrual' column you also have dyes, amino acids, sugars, carbs etc. It is true that we incorporate things like skimmers and chemical filtration to help deal with accruing build up and eutrophication in general. But it is important to realize that we don't magically brings things back to zero but at best, unmeasurable levels- in other words, we put off or slow the 'pulling away' from ideal base line. In an OPEN system, readings are obviously almost always at the ideal baseline. Another example would be seen as detritus on a micro level-- biofilm is omni present-- and biofilm itself dies and things called 'rafts' are continually breaking off the biofilm and set drift in water columns. In short, life produces metabolic waste and byproducts and closed systems begin to build over time. The 'time' it takes to move the needle off the baseline ideal is that interval all call a needed water change - weekly, daily, monthly. In nature the baseline is remarkably stable.

 

[zie2695]

It

From what I read, it's pretty much the same as the triton method, with the exception of no ICP testing. The only odd thing I saw is you mix your own NSW with certain parameters in mind(including minor and major trace elements).

Seems like more testing that we all hate to do in the first place. Ever wonder why everyone's waiting on the trident, and all the others that are similar are selling so well?

Compares nothing to Triton. Similaritys sure but not the same in the slightest.

 

[bluprntguy]

Using an excel spreadsheet would make it seem too much like work...

 

[rushbattle]

The aquarium hobby faces the challenge of being a closed system. It is also attempting to harness fundamental principles of biological processes such as the nitrification and denitrification cycle. At the heart of this, of course, is the nitrogen cycle and the build up of other biological metabolites. The the 'accrual' column you also have dyes, amino acids, sugars, carbs etc. It is true that we incorporate things like skimmers and chemical filtration to help deal with accruing build up and eutrophication in general. But it is important to realize that we don't magically brings things back to zero but at best, unmeasurable levels- in other words, we put off or slow the 'pulling away' from ideal base line. In an OPEN system, readings are obviously almost always at the ideal baseline. Another example would be seen as detritus on a micro level-- biofilm is omni present-- and biofilm itself dies and things called 'rafts' are continually breaking off the biofilm and set drift in water columns. In short, life produces metabolic waste and byproducts and closed systems begin to build over time. The 'time' it takes to move the needle off the baseline ideal is that interval all call a needed water change - weekly, daily, monthly. In nature the baseline is remarkably stable.

So nothing that you can actually name? If the buildup of any of your inspecific compounds hinder the growth and coloration of coral, how are corals grown and colored without water changes in aquaria all over the world with Triton, DSR, lazy method, etc. etc.? If it was just a few tanks I would still be highly skeptical, but it’s pretty common these days. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that fish and corals can be kept without water changes for long periods of time.

 

[Joey Coral Crazed]

double posted sorry

 

[Joey Coral Crazed]

Just get a methanol denitrifier and you won’t ever have to worry about water changes ever again. My buddy who has one of the nicest 510 gal sps dominant tanks you will ever see has been going 5 years strong with no water changes using a methanol denitrifier and his acros are out of this world.

 

[glennf]

I've been following along with GlennF's reef system for a while now (it's CRAZY! If you've never seen his tank, check it out here!). He created the DSR (Dutch Synthetic Reefing) method, and I keep wondering why has no distributor stepped forward in the USA to bring these products here to the US?? I'm seriously jealous of my European friends who have access to this. LOL

Btw, if you've not seen GlennF's reef, here ya go... You're welcome!!

Photos by @glennf

Thanks for the very nice compliments.

These are the onces which inspired me (back in 2013) to roll out my system into the dutch reefing community. That's when i wrote the first DSR calculator, which made reefdosings to get grip over water parameters more accessable and common to non-chemists.

Since than we have come a long way in the dutch reefing scene.

 

[glennf]

On a quick skim

Appears to be Zeo with generic bottles of supplements

And typical heavy Euro Zeo T5s

How far am I off, and how?

There are 2 systems (the coresystem is the same. it's just a classification of the user experience)

The original system (rolled out in 2012/2013) for reefheads called:
FullDSR "The DSR method"
http://www.DSRreefing.com/supplements/#
This system was based on calculations and dosing based on an excelsheet called the DSR calculator. For those familiar with excelsheet, measurement and were willing to read/learn this was a fresh breeze into the hobby.
Those who were not familiar with calculations, measurement and dosings were overwelmed by the numbers and products that came with it. They hated it[emoji848]....
This is how a fullDSR tanksetup begins with:
http://www.DSRreefing.com/fulldsr

This is how it all started. http://www.reefhobbyistmagazine.com/magazine-tiled-q1-2014-41.html


The EZ system is in fact a plug and play dosing system derived from the original DSR method.
http://www.DSRreefing.com/ez-dsr
This made it EaZier for those who just wanted to get started.

I listened to the criticasters.
In this design all the points of critic against the original DSR Method was removed.
This is how a EZstart look like:
http://dsrreefing.com/ezstart


Once i had zeolites, refugiums and DSB's...
Once i got more in tune with my own system i removed all the "excess" technics without any consequence.

Now this is the blueprint for a DSR runned system.
http://www.DSRreefing.com/technics

Quite dull[emoji849] and nothing to showoff with...[emoji13]

 

[glennf]

If I had my way the products would already be used in my household and I would be running a full DSR reef just so I could throw it in everybody's face that I was on to something long before anyone was willing to make the effort to bring this absolutely amazing method to the states.
The problem I have is that I can't figure out anybody to import the products to me, I've been referred to seaflower and I have conversed with them to only be forgotten about. I was literally inches away from making a deal with them to import the products to me in they simply stopped responding so I have made my efforts.
Believe me as soon as the products are available in the United States I will be the 1st one making a purchase and if Glenn Fong would be willing to set me up I am more than willing to build the 1st DSR display tank in the United States for references. I have personally been back-and-forth with Glenn for the past 3 years but simply in unable to bring the products in to the United States from abroad.

I have been a reefer since 2004.
No waterchanges since than.
I rolled out the method to others in 2012/2013
Read the story behind DSR.
http://www.reefhobbyistmagazine.com/magazine-tiled-q1-2014-41.html

 

[glennf]

Glenn F's tank is an inspiration. He's been around for a long time . Iv'e read several articles about his methods but have forgotten half.

Thanks m8.

When reefing is about having fun, but not the burden, it keeps you interrested for a long time.
Of course it helps when you have a relaxed attitude towards live and things goes your way.

There were many publications, highlights and milestones...
Read more about them:
http://dsrreefing.nl/forum/index.php?board=18.0

 

[DSC reef]

@glennf your tank just gets nicer and nicer! I remember when I first saw it in reef hobbyist. Well done man!

 

[reefwiser]

On a quick skim

Appears to be Zeo with generic bottles of supplements

And typical heavy Euro Zeo T5s

How far am I off, and how?

So far away from Zeo as to be on an other planet. The use of T5's is because they work. Very common in Europe they don't throw away things that work.
As far as it being close to Triton method Glenn was doing this before Triton came out. They just came at it from a more scientific method since Esan's uncles had access to an ICP machine.

 

[glennf]

I don’t usually respond to these poll threads, but y’all gotta check out Glenn’s setup. It’s crazy what he’s doing.

For some it!'s "crazy"

In our hobby every opinion matters, we learn from all input, even from the flamers and trollers.
Just don't let them get under your skin[emoji6].

For me it's about:
- Having fun, challenges and improving on myself.
- Exposing that "rules" may be bend, once you get around the "habbits" people setup te become rules.
- About not following the herd and learning to think for yourself.
- going back to the basic that matters
- pushing boundaries to improve myself and kindred spirits.

 

[glennf]

One interesting thing about Glenn's method is that he was considerably ahead of the curve. Essentially, it's the philosophy behind the Triton method, which is testing for (and supplementing) major and minor trace elements. He started this the hard way - with lots of wet chemistry tests. One thing I've never been able to puzzle out is how he could prevent a significant sulfate/chloride ratio shift over natural seawater, since he's continually adding sodium with the sodium bicarb, and chloride with the calcium chloride. As the specific gravity is adjusted to match seawater, the sulfate content would naturally go down relative to the chloride, as most tanks just don't consume much magnesium (which would be the opportunity to add sulfate back in the form of magnesium sulfate).

It might well be that sulfate in seawater just isn't something that matters to our corals, fish and invertebrates.

- At first it was more about luck than wisdom. 2004-2008. Diy technics, easy and soft corals.

- than it became attemps tot keep keep substantial amouth of SPS coral. This is where most of us get into problems due to lack of waterchemistry knowhow, so did I.....
This was the learning moment where you realize than NOT doing Waterchanges required more effort and knowledge.

- So in Q4 2011 my sons Chemistry book came in very handy. With the subjects still fresh in his mind he help me developed with the calculation and i build the first version of the DSR calculator.

The main difference with other systems (including ICP based systems) is:
- They have the nice labs and machines to showoff with, whilst DSR users do their own testing and calibrations. It's about taking control and relying on your own skills.
- all other methodology rely on copying NSW, whilst DSR is about proving less is more. I don't believe in dosings stuff that don't realy serve any purpose or shows up in the endresult. After all only the endresult matters. Theories only don't solve problems and don't make nice reeftanks.
ICP are just measuring tools, it helps out lazy reefers measuring things for a reasonable price. They don't grow you corals, you do...

Up to 2016 i never used MgSO4 to supplement Magnesium. So you may assume that SO4 (S=Suphur) got depleted.
The corals in my tank(s) looked just fine all the time.
When doing ICP test few of my veteran users showed Sulphate at 600-700ppm (nsw=904ppm) with not any ill effect on the corals.
There were case of others (not DSR) only using only MgSO4 to supplement Mg with 1300ppm sulphur. They also claimed no ill effect was to be seen on corals.
So ..... does it realy matter when we deviate from NSW with certain parameters???

For the purpose of adjusting S (SO4) this calculator was developed
http://www.DSRreefing.com/scalc

So considering above mention field experience, it would be a reefers choice to supplement Mg+ or MgSO4

 

[glennf]

One thing I've never been able to puzzle out is how he could prevent a significant sulfate/chloride ratio shift over natural seawater, since he's continually adding sodium with the sodium bicarb, and chloride with the calcium chloride. As the specific gravity is adjusted to match seawater,...

Read into this
http://www.DSRreefing.nl/balance

When things start realy going south (due to neglect) you can mix your own salt to completely shift your ionic balance.
meaning: correcting your ionic unbalance with a small correctional waterchange.

This is the saltcalculator http://www.DSRreefing.com/saltcalc

Normal saltmixture have a hard time doing so, unless you do a 90% waterchange.

 

[hart24601]

I love reading about DSR and seeing the results. Glenn is a true leader in the hobby keeping it all transparent.

That being said auto water changes just work so well for me personally I don't have a reason to deviate. I bought a 2 head masterflex on eBay a years ago for $200 and it just keeps on chugging. The salt cost for my system isn't significant (130g) compared to my other reefing costs and with a macro fuge I don't have many reasons to change things up.

But the more options we have the better and I would enjoy seeing this system more in the US.