Why Ignore Nitrite?

[Variant]

So I am starting my first reef tank using mostly dry rock and have been learning about how cycling works for dry rock setups. In my readings, I noticed a fair number of people recommending that we ignore nitrite and just focus on ammonia and nitrate.

The primary reasoning behind ignoring nitrate appears to be due to its low toxicity to marine fish and ornamental inverts (eg snails, crabs, shrimp, etc). But what about corals, anemones and clams?

Now in addition to my new dry rock tank, I have a bin of mature live rock (infested with bubble algae) where I have clams and gigantea anemones that are healthy.I also have a smaller tank full of live rock from the ocean with magnifica anemone and other corals doing well. Both live rock systems have zero nitrites while my relatively newer dry rock tank with fiah and snails has noticeable nitrites.

I have been trying to decide when to move some of my anemones clams and corals from the live rock systems to the dry rock tank and have been super weary of the nitrite... while nitrite might not be fatal to fish and CuC, perhaps it is an indicator of other aspects of tank maturity (eg bacterial).

Thoughts? Is it possible to have mature tanks with nitrites or nitrite oxide which might be showing up in our nitrite test results? Should we stop ignoring Nitrite when it comes to tank maturity beyond initial cycling for fish?

 

[Garf]

May be old school but if you’ve got nitrite readings you have not enough bacterial activity, especially to deal with sudden ammonia input.

 

[Variant]

Having nitrites definitely means that the nitrite reducing bacteria is not readily available in aufficient quantities.

I wonder of nitrite directlt or indirectly impacts coral health. Its kind of like bacteria in the water is not always bad but when it bloom in huge quantities, it reduces oxygen levels which affect fish. Perhaps nitrite may have a similar indirect relationship with healthy of organisms outside fish and basic CuC?

 

[brandon429]

Nothing we keep is harmed by it. If nitrite matters, no marine convention could start on time. Drops mike meme

 

[brandon429]

That's not enough to justify ignoring it, here's the others:

Cannot affect ammonia control despite other sources with far better degrees
(Our proofs are the work threads and conventions)
Cannot harm any animals we keep, all of them.

Cannot be tested for accurately

Causes much unneeded waste of money buying and rebuying bottled bac for a neutral component.

 

[Variant]

Nothing we keep is harmed by it. If nitrite matters, no marine convention could start on time. Drops mike meme

Can you elaborate? Or point me to some content?

I assumed vendors use fresh saltwater or clean saltwater to those conventions and fill up frag tanks. So if there are no fish in there and its just corals there wouldnt be signifcant nitrite anyways, right?

I know for example anemones can do well in just clean saltwater. I do it to treat them and observe them prior to adding to any system. But your saying even if i dosed susrained nitrite in, it would have zero impact?

 

[Variant]

That's not enough to justify ignoring it, here's the others:

Cannot affect ammonia control despite other sources with far better degrees
(Our proofs are the work threads and conventions)
Cannot harm any animals we keep, all of them.

Cannot be tested for accurately

Causes much unneeded waste of money buying and rebuying bottled bac for a neutral component.

What timing! Missed this before my reaponse. But to your points here. I am not saying nitrite impacts ammonia. I am just wondering if the prescence of nitrites directly or even indirectly affects viability to keep thibgs like acros, anemones and clams.

 

[brandon429]

none ever noted in all our cycle analyses. all those can be skip cycled. here are dry starts and wet start skip cycles below for tracking outcomes.

also interesting, who's keeping acros that fast. not that its impossible, but if they're using pre cured purple coralline real live rock from a fish tank that + nitrate reading may not even be correct. Not being able to actually know our param matters, there's as much of a chance your setup has none as it does having some. Today's bottle bac are quick to remedy, and live rock simply xfers over all its bac anyway/no losses.

I do recall one dry start that took on lps corals pretty much as fast as reasonably possible, as a + nitrite start.

This is Daniel's 32

Cycling a new Biocube 32

Hello all! My name is Daniel from Florida and I’m starting to get into the reef hobby. I have been cycling my tank for two weeks now and logging it into an app. I have recently been gifted a live rock with some good amount of coralline on it. I also got some water from and established tank. My...

www.reef2reef.com

the entire life arc of the tank is logged here, astounding reefing. he weathers a big big storm page 10 ish, comes out shining via raw will.

some uglies are not a cakewalk.

the same ruleset that told us to allow reefs to self-invaded and win a battle are the same ones stating nitrite controls our start dates, the rules are ready to be challenged fairly and its not just for reef anarchy, its truly just to exercise sole control over every cycle possible. You'll save more reef animals knowing when you can absolutely act with resolve vs wonder if the bac are able. In the end the reason to avoid nitrite is so we'll focus on the real challenge: nh3 control. its all we care about, its all MACNA cares about. by wielding ammonia control quickly, you can set up a hospital for a broken tank successfully every single time.

By skipping nitrite testing and focusing on nh3 control, you'll be able to move any living reef tank across town, across the state etc successfully every single time.

we are trimming cycling fat, to focus on the meat.

*waiting for nitrite to control is no harm, cycle charts show how long that takes.

We don't buy five day bottle bac to wait the full thirty...this is the enduring conflict. whats ready in average ~5 days after bottle bac addition is nh3 control, that's how all these fish-in cycles are working out harmlessly, because the fish are happy.

they eat, swim, play, and are not burned at all because bottle bac controls nh3 and because nh3 is the only param that matters in reef cycling. everything lines up correctly under the same rule set/convention start date control etc.

 

[brandon429]

if anyone owns a hanna digital nitrite checker, not a debated item for accuracy, love to see the data. if its a color kit/horse shoes are better/approximation or total guessing at the levels from cycle chart time axis solving.



Lasse made a case recently for not ignoring nitrite. His angle iirc was that nitrite must be controlled in order to get a clean nitrate reading, and many people really like to know their nitrate accurately as N/P tuning seems to be today's best measure against early tank dinos takeover.


Monitoring antibiotic levels/effects in hospital tanks might be a valid reason for testing nitrite and factoring it in a decision. It would need to be the digital tests though to do any good/hanna/ $hundred + dollars for a neutral param reader.

Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

that's the quickest started dry reef Ive ever seen, full life arc on file and long term updates. Ive never seen anyone do anemone-in fish in coral in dry start cycling. it worked.

anemones don't get 'burned' and then come back. he simply skipped cycle due to 2020 abilities vs 1993 abilities in the hobby.

 

[Garf]

If you’re detecting nitrites, you are cycling, period. I like short answers.

 

[brandon429]

we would claim its done though, and that you aren't cycling. links show why above. a short answer wont make it right.


if you were tasked to arrange and control a MACNA convention start date, you'd simply have to let nitrites go or you couldn't convene. Since nh3 is controlled easily in one day/above two good proofs on file/any convention (or reef tank) can start, and ensure you are not cycling any longer. Under your rules, everyone must wait 30 days. that's how long nitrite control takes.

all bottle bac produced is meant to start faster than 30 days, fritz is 1 day cycling bac but won't control nitrites till the timeframes on the charts say it will.

we have accepted all stated nitrite readings as accurate. its API data, how does it get that accurate where no tests reported are debated...its because we want nitrite to matter, accepting rules updates does not come lightly in forums / aware. its good to be that way.


I like having discerning forum posters verify claims by tracking tank outcomes when they use modified cycle approaches.

 

[Variant]

So for context this is what went on in my mind:

1. My new tank with dry rock cycled ammonia and my fish and CuC are well. Uglies have come and gome and coraline algae is growing. But I am only 30 days since I started the tank.

2. I have an ugly bin of mature live rock with coral anemones and clams I want to transfer the livesyo k to my new tank (excluding the live rock) but I wonder if its safe.

3. Everyone says to wait many months to let the tank "mature" to avoid needless fatalities. But why is this... what is so different between my mature rock systems and my 30 day old system?

4. I do tests and one of the glaring differences is nitrite. Even my 1 mo th old nano with live rock and corals and anemones has zero nitrite.

5. I wonder if I should wait till nitrite in my new tank is zero before I make any coral clam and anemone transfers...

6. But everyone sayz nitrite isnt an issue... and now I am confused.

Hoping to resolve my confusion. Is it just correlation that nitrite being zero means mature live rock and system capable of handling sensitivr specimen? Or is there an unknown causal relationship we have yet to find out?

none ever noted in all our cycle analyses. all those can be skip cycled. here are dry starts and wet start skip cycles below for tracking outcomes.

also interesting, who's keeping acros that fast. not that its impossible, but if they're using pre cured purple coralline real live rock from a fish tank that + nitrate reading may not even be correct. Not being able to actually know our param matters, there's as much of a chance your setup has none as it does having some. Today's bottle bac are quick to remedy, and live rock simply xfers over all its bac anyway/no losses.

I do recall one dry start that took on lps corals pretty much as fast as reasonably possible, as a + nitrite start.

This is Daniel's 32

Cycling a new Biocube 32

Hello all! My name is Daniel from Florida and I’m starting to get into the reef hobby. I have been cycling my tank for two weeks now and logging it into an app. I have recently been gifted a live rock with some good amount of coralline on it. I also got some water from and established tank. My...

www.reef2reef.com

the entire life arc of the tank is logged here, astounding reefing. he weathers a big big storm page 10 ish, comes out shining via raw will.

some uglies are not a cakewalk.

the same ruleset that told us to allow reefs to self-invaded and win a battle are the same ones stating nitrite controls our start dates, the rules are ready to be challenged fairly and its not just for reef anarchy, its truly just to exercise sole control over every cycle possible. You'll save more reef animals knowing when you can absolutely act with resolve vs wonder if the bac are able. In the end the reason to avoid nitrite is so we'll focus on the real challenge: nh3 control. its all we care about, its all MACNA cares about. by wielding ammonia control quickly, you can set up a hospital for a broken tank successfully every single time.

By skipping nitrite testing and focusing on nh3 control, you'll be able to move any living reef tank across town, across the state etc successfully every single time.

we are trimming cycling fat, to focus on the meat.

*waiting for nitrite to control is no harm, cycle charts show how long that takes.

We don't buy five day bottle bac to wait the full thirty...this is the enduring conflict. whats ready in average ~5 days after bottle bac addition is nh3 control, that's how all these fish-in cycles are working out harmlessly, because the fish are happy.

they eat, swim, play, and are not burned at all because bottle bac controls nh3 and because nh3 is the only param that matters in reef cycling. everything lines up correctly under the same rule set/convention start date control etc.

 

[brandon429]

Daniel's thread above is the perfect match for your cycle and what's coming. perfect


part of these weird claims I'm making come from web patterns by the thousands people have posted that were against the rules.

They weren't supposed to work, but they did.

The best example of them all is fish-in cycling, where people add dr Tims or fritz or Ike's tank above/biospira and add their fish same day as the tank fill.

That is heresy if rules from 1998 are applied. its supposed to be universally bad; harms all animals, any forum poster would agree if polled.


but its 2020, land of the marine reef convention...tanks that keep one hundred thousand dollars in bounce frags run instantly, nobody trusts convention tanks to weak cycle science. forums have the weak science, conventions have the up and up.

Fish-in cycles are not burning fish, find and post any recent fish-in cycle thread that didn't work. We can see in searching that they're all a success, the fish are fine and never acted burned not once.


cycle rules have changed, its fun to try and retro trace why and how.

the reason to know it is for pure tank control and preservation of life. knowing what actions have what outcomes, ahead of time.

 

[Variant]

Daniel's thread above is the perfect match for your cycle and what's coming. perfect


part of these weird claims I'm making come from web patterns by the thousands people have posted that were against the rules.

They weren't supposed to work, but they did.

The best example of them all is fish-in cycling, where people add dr Tims or fritz or Ike's tank above/biospira and add their fish same day as the tank fill.

That is heresy if rules from 1998 are applied. its supposed to be universally bad; harms all animals, any forum poster would agree if polled.


but its 2020, land of the marine reef convention...tanks that keep one hundred thousand dollars in bounce frags run instantly, nobody trusts convention tanks to weak cycle science. forums have the weak science, conventions have the up and up.

Fish-in cycles are not burning fish, find and post any recent fish-in cycle thread that didn't work. We can see in searching that they're all a success, the fish are fine and never acted burned not once.


cycle rules have changed, its fun to try and retro trace why and how.

the reason to know it is for pure tank control and preservation of life. knowing what actions have what outcomes, ahead of time.

I read through the two links above and they give me hope but I personally am fairly risl averse. The idea of putting in my gigantea anemone in a month old tank doesnt sit well with me... maybe I can just drop in a cheap acropora frag in there and observe instead. But then we are talking about anemone vs acro in newer tanks...

):

 

[brandon429]

agreed. that will always be a challenge in full dry rock starts, the missing feed webs. the inevitable uglies nestled among corals.


controlling nh3 is quite easy, that doesn't mean dry rocking is.

without that UV sterilizer Daniel would hate reefing, price of dry rocking it + corals even though nh3 is controlled.

now if you could score real live rock to add... can you get at least a little real live rock to add

 

[Garf]

we would claim its done though, and that you aren't cycling. links show why above. a short answer wont make it right.


if you were tasked to arrange and control a MACNA convention start date, you'd simply have to let nitrites go or you couldn't convene. Since nh3 is controlled easily in one day/above two good proofs on file/any convention (or reef tank) can start, and ensure you are not cycling any longer. Under your rules, everyone must wait 30 days. that's how long nitrite control takes.

all bottle bac produced is meant to start faster than 30 days, fritz is 1 day cycling bac but won't control nitrites till the timeframes on the charts say it will.

we have accepted all stated nitrite readings as accurate. its API data, how does it get that accurate where no tests reported are debated...its because we want nitrite to matter, accepting rules updates does not come lightly in forums / aware. its good to be that way.


I like having discerning forum posters verify claims by tracking tank outcomes when they use modified cycle approaches.

Being autistic with a base in reality I have no idea of this reply.

agreed. that will always be a challenge in full dry rock starts, the missing feed webs. the inevitable uglies nestled among corals.


controlling nh3 is quite easy, that doesn't mean dry rocking is.

without that UV sterilizer Daniel would hate reefing, price of dry rocking it + corals even though nh3 is controlled.

now if you could score real live rock to add... can you get at least a little real live rock to add

i love your enthusiasm.

 

[brandon429]

you worked hard to formulate those responses, and links, your time spent earning an opinion on the matter is appreciated

 

[Calm Blue Ocean]

Here's one reason to not ignore nitrite. It is my understanding that many nitrate tests will be inaccurate if nitrite is present.

 

[brandon429]

agreed.

 

[jda]

Won this at a club auction. Waste of the gas that I used to carry the extra weight home. I just took this test, have no idea what 14 is and do not care. In almost thirty years since I last cycled a tank, I have not thought about nitrite. Since I want ammonia/ammonium going through my tank at all times, I guess that I am happy that I have some nitrite.

Get your cycle done and then you can never think about it again either.