WHY I'VE STOPPED USING INSTANT OCEAN IN MY REEF

[Macdaddynick1]

Saw all caps in the title, and I thought IO crashed your tank or something.

I got high lithium too according to ati, they said that if you use cement and artificial rock, you’ll just have to do more waterchanges. I have used both artificial rock and marco cement in my tank.

 

[David S]

Saw all caps in the title, and I thought IO crashed your tank or something.

I got high lithium too according to ati, they said that if you use cement and artificial rock, you’ll just have to do more waterchanges. I have used both artificial rock and marco cement in my tank.

I don't use artificial rock, but I have been using two part Epoxy to seal of those infernal Vermetid snails. Could that be a source of Lithium?

 

[David S]

If things like alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium are all testing at near equal levels, what leads you to believe the change of salt has led to your more consistent dosing?

Edit: since you seem to be having an issue with a desired balance between alkalinity and calcium specifically, you'd likely be better off dosing a two part to achieve this.

I have been using two part (ESV) as well as Kalk. The trouble was, it was inadequate and you might say unpredictable (i.e sometimes the ALK would be out of whack though it was mostly Calcium that was too low). Since changing to TM Kalk dosing + ESV two part has resulted in consistent readings. i have not had to make further readustments.

 

[David S]

I have been using IO since I started this hobby 15 years ago. Haven't had an issue with stability. I dose 2part from BRS and haven't had any issue with the big 3s. Alk is dead set at 8, Calc at 425 and Mg at 1500. I'm dosing 15 ml a daily of the 2 part. I just just got my triton test results and I did have really high Li. I didn't worry much since everything in the tank was doing fine. Wasn't where the high Li came from. The only other thing I was lacking was Iodine, it was slightly lower then recommended, but that's probably because I do minimal water changes on my system (10-15 gal a month on a 80 gal system).

Good to hear about your consistent results with BRS two part. Maybe it's better than ESV
What was the cause of your high Lithium level.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I just want to say that I've used IO for years and had great success, I just got tired of constantly adjusting my KH/CA and constantly testing to make sure it's right.
So far with TM my reef tank appears just as healthy sans the constant testing and readjusting. I don't mind paying the extra bucks, if these results can be maintained.
Your correct when you say that Randy suggests not to be concerned about high Lithium levels, but I believe he also said that Lithium is not utilized by the inhabitants of the Reef.
That leads me to believe that Lithium would accumulate in your tank, so you would want to get a salt mix that is low in Lithium.
I can't say for sure until I eliminate the various possibilities through further testing, but I know I've read articles that suggested that IO has a relatively high LI content.
Actually, if you look at the Triton sample provided by Hart24601 you see a result of over 6,000 ug/l for Lithium for the ESV batch.
I know I'd feel a lot more comfortable if the level was reduced - considerably. Do we really know what effect this could have over the long term.

So it's then quite possible then the wc schedule was not consistent with amount of doing. Requiring you to adjust.
The change then is purely to accommodate lifeststyle and husbandry schedule. Ie changed only 5 gal so it had little measurable impact. Were i to change 15 gal there would be significant measurable impact.

And this is not a bad thing to consider. It's actually how I do it and reccomend doing it.
You don't have to match desirable parameters with the salt mix , but if you don't want to, you want to use less to impact them less.

Lithium is apparently not used by any of our reef inhabitants, so does that mean it just stays in the tank?

I belive (not a chemist nor biologist nor expert ) we don't fully understand the mechanism that use it and it's much more difficult to calculate. But I belive some trace amounts are used. The depletion rate is variable but does drop. Just not at the rate something like cal is.

 

[David S]

So it's then quite possible then the wc schedule was not consistent with amount of doing. Requiring you to adjust.
The change then is purely to accommodate lifeststyle and husbandry schedule. Ie changed only 5 gal so it had little measurable impact. Were i to change 15 gal there would be significant measurable impact.

And this is not a bad thing to consider. It's actually how I do it and reccomend doing it.
You don't have to match desirable parameters with the salt mix , but if you don't want to, you want to use less to impact them less.



I belive (not a chemist nor biologist nor expert ) we don't fully understand the mechanism that use it and it's much more difficult to calculate. But I belive some trace amounts are used. The depletion rate is variable but does drop. Just not at the rate something like cal is.

Absolutely; one of the main concerns was lifestyle.
I'd prefer spending time enjoying my reef rather than constantly adjusting the parameters. I don't know if many people would feel otherwise.
I have not made any changes, whatsoever, in my dosing schedule. The only change I made was the salt mix and since making this change, I only require my Kalk dosing and ESV 2 part (equal part ALK & Ca) and voila.
I can even go a few days of no testing and then when I test, the results for ALK & CA are within acceptable parameters.
When I was using Instant Ocean, if I did not test for a few days I would almost always have either too high/Low Alk and/or too low CA. Not anymore

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Absolutely; one of the main concerns was lifestyle.
I'd prefer spending time enjoying my reef rather than constantly adjusting the parameters. I don't know if many people would feel otherwise.
I have not made any changes, whatsoever, in my dosing schedule. The only change I made was the salt mix and since making this change, I only require my Kalk dosing and ESV 2 part (equal part ALK & Ca) and voila.
I can even go a few days of no testing and then when I test, the results for ALK & CA are within acceptable parameters.
When I was using Instant Ocean, if I did not test for a few days I would almost always have either too high/Low Alk and/or too low CA. Not anymore

Good comprise! Kinda the same here. Different methods to the same end.

 

[siggy]

@David S, could you show us some pic's ? I curious to see all the hungry corals. thanks

 

[David S]

@David S, could you show us some pic's ? I curious to see all the hungry corals. thanks

Siggy
I'll see if I can take few over the weekend
Thanks for your interest

 

[David S]

Good comprise! Kinda the same here. Different methods to the same end.

BTW forgot perhaps the main reason, I chose to make the change. It was for stability, which is probably the most important thing for a reef tank.
When I was constantly modifying my dosing, I consider that a lack of stability.
Furthermore due to the size of my tank (38 gallon) and the fact that I don't have a sump (I have HOB Fuge, Skimmer, and TLF Phosban Reactor) I imagine things can go south on me much quicker than someone with a larger sized aquarium. All the more reason to insure stability.
So far, things are more stable than I can recall- even if it is for a relatively short time.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

BTW forgot perhaps the main reason, I chose to make the change. It was for stability, which is probably the most important thing for a reef tank.
When I was constantly modifying my dosing, I consider that a lack of stability.
Furthermore due to the size of my tank (38 gallon) and the fact that I don't have a sump (I have HOB Fuge, Skimmer, and TLF Phosban Reactor) I imagine things can go south on me much quicker than someone with a larger sized aquarium. All the more reason to insure stability.
So far, things are more stable than I can recall- even if it is for a relatively short time.

Oh I get it.
But we both found different strategies to do so.
For me, IO was fine. I found a dosing and wc sched that maintained that stability.

Both ways are still correct.

Had I changed the wc shced mine would have become less stable.

 

[dgrigor02]

I had freshly mixed instant ocean tested and was 368.5 ppb 1/10th of what you quoted for Li. My triton test results I've seen it's pretty typical for Li to be higher. I have never worried about it.

My last triton test was 346ppb and has not shown any signs of accumulating in the 20 or so months I've been doing the near zero water change philosophy.

I've use Instant Ocean for 20 years. Approx. 5 years ago, I switch to TM and went through 6 200g buckets of it. My tank did just as good with Instant Ocean as it did with TM. I saw no difference both before the switch, during, or after. The only thing I noticed for nearly twice the cost was that I didn't have to wipe down the sides of my mixing 55g barrel. Centainly nice that TM mixed cleaner but not enough to justify using it long term. since it only takes me a minute to wipe down the sides of the mixing container between each batch.

For me, I didn't care what the alk,ca,mg levels are as I need to supplement anyways and its pennies on the dollar to use bulk supplements to make the correction to freshly mixed salt. What I do like about Instant Ocean is K, strontium and other elements are slightly elevated in Instant ocean so there was little need to add anything but some CA and Magnesium.

There is absoluting nothing wrong with using Tropic Marin, I personally didn't justify the additional costs and no perceived benefits outside of the mixing residue.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I think normal IO, with higher alk and lower calcium is a good mix for people using limewater (kalkwasser) since that method is slightly unbalanced to excessive calcium dosing relative to alkalinity. That and the fact that it had no organics are the main reasons I preferred it for 20 years. It was not a big source of lithium for me (I had 353 ug/l, which seems typical for it), although I suppose that can change when any company changes its bulk chemical sources.

 

[Sleepydoc]

I have to agree with the posters above - if you were concerned about the Li levels, the best thing to do would be to mix up some IO and have it tested. Likewise, doing some testing to compare levels in several batches (mixed to a consistent SG, of course) would help to tell if the variations were due to the salt mix or something else.

Given the fact that you’re doing a water change, high Li should not build upo from the salt mix, so unless the mix itself has levels that are ‘off the charts,’ the source of the Li may well be one of your other additives.

Regarding variations in parameters, those can either be due to variations from box to box (i.e. manufacturing variations,) settling/separation of the components during shipping, or inconsistent mixing on your part. A refractometer will quickly eliminate the last possibility. Testing your batches of salt water should reveal if the other two are causes. Other brands of salt have reportedly had issues with separation, so that may be the issue. I would be surprised if it’s a manufacturing issue, since I’m pretty sure Instant Ocean has QC checks and procedures in place, but you never know.

I quit using IO Reef Crystals years ago not because of any specific problems with the salt itself, but rather because of the brown crud that would cake on the inside of my mixing tub. I’m using ™ now as well and have been happy with it.

 

[SuperDragon]

Your correct when you say that Randy suggests not to be concerned about high Lithium levels, but I believe he also said that Lithium is not utilized by the inhabitants of the Reef.
That leads me to believe that Lithium would accumulate in your tank, so you would want to get a salt mix that is low in Lithium.
I can't say for sure until I eliminate the various possibilities through further testing, but I know I've read articles that suggested that IO has a relatively high LI content.
Actually, if you look at the Triton sample provided by Hart24601 you see a result of over 6,000 ug/l for Lithium for the ESV batch.
I know I'd feel a lot more comfortable if the level was reduced - considerably. Do we really know what effect this could have over the long term.

We use Lithium in medicine for depression and bipolar stuff... I guess our fish won't be unhappy in a glass box

 

[Sleepydoc]

We use Lithium in medicine for depression and bipolar stuff... I guess our fish won't be unhappy in a glass box

Except one of the side effects of Lithium is polydypsia (excessive drinking) - you should keep a close eye on your fish to make sure this doesn’t become an issue!;Joyful

 

[drblakjak55]

3 yr old 90g mixed reef LPS dominant. Dozen fish. Instant Ocean Reef since start.
No dosing. 25% water change every two weeks. Chaeto growing quick. Stability is key. Bigger tanks more forgiving

 

[skiergd011013]

Never really had a problem with IO. I use 100 gallons of it a week at work. At home i use red sea coral pro simply due to the higher trace minerals.

 

[FlyinBryan]

Interesting. I tried the switch from IO RC to TM and I tried RS. And I’ve switched back to IO RC for good. I personally find my levels to be very good!

 

[Larry L]

This isn't the first post I've seen where someone whose tank was apparently doing fine otherwise got worried about some anomaly in Triton (or other ICP) test results and started switching things up...

if you were concerned about the Li levels, the best thing to do would be to mix up some IO and have it tested.

For a good baseline would need to test the RODI water used to mix up the saltwater, which I think the original poster planned to do.