Why so resistant to getting PAR numbers???

[mike550]

I used a rack and moved them up slowly. Then I just set them in place. If they fall I glue them down. After a few weeks I will use putty and make them permanent. They snap off easily with glue.

@cshouston I have a similar approach to @Ippyroy I start my frags low in the tank on a magnetic rack, and raise them up over time. I then take them off a frag off the rack when I get to the height in the tank where I want to mount them. So I get a chance to see how they react / respond. Of course, water flow is way different between the rack and where I want to mount them.

 

[Nano sapiens]

I think a PAR is crucial. I paid the price for not measuring my PAR before switching from MHs to LEDs. I built one with an Apogee sensor and a cheap multimeter. Have to multiply the reading by 5 to get the PAR reading but it has been working great.

Did the same thing with the 'quantum sensor + multimeter' many years back. I would guess that relatively few people know of this 'hack' which makes reading PAR much more affordable.

 

[92Miata]

That was my point without getting too technical, thank u

But to do this you have to know the number at some point.

But you don't - because the number has no real reference value.

To give you an example - we have two Nuvo40s in the house - same lights, same schedule, same skimmer. One is lower flow and runs higher nutrients. The other is barebottom, lots of flow, low nutrients.

I can grow stuff on the starboard in one tank, and the other tank it needs to be 3/4 of the way up to color up. If I move something from 3/4 of the way up in that tank to 3/4 of the way up in the barebottom, it bleaches out and dies within a week or two.

IE, 400ish par in the barebottom kills corals, while its totally fine in the high nutrient tank.


Why? Because nutrient levels affect the amount of lighting needed, and the amount of light a coral can handle - as does alkalinity, and flow.

So you're never going to be able to look at a tank and say - that coral is under 700 par in that tank - so I need to put it in 700 in my tank. It may look great at 250. Or it may need 1000 in your tank.

And that's not even getting into the fact that 500 par under MH is a completely different thing than 500 par under LED, and that 500 PAR running even across all channels is very different than 500 par of just blue/violet.

 

[SMSREEF]

In the beginning this is all fine and dandy but When you start spending 1k+ on a single coral matching par becomes as important as nutrients.

I’m never spending $1000 on a coral. But Even so, I think spending $200 on a meter to make sure the life I do bring home doesn’t do poorly or die is important.

I know it’s only one factor, but it’s a big one. And since my eyes can’t tell the difference between 50 and 300 Par, I need the tool to help.

How much do we spend on checking phosphate with our Hanna Checkers over a couple years... If I had a different light like T5’s or MH I would not own one. With LED that we can adjust it makes sense.

 

[MERKEY]

But you don't - because the number has no real reference value.

To give you an example - we have two Nuvo40s in the house - same lights, same schedule, same skimmer. One is lower flow and runs higher nutrients. The other is barebottom, lots of flow, low nutrients.

I can grow stuff on the starboard in one tank, and the other tank it needs to be 3/4 of the way up to color up. If I move something from 3/4 of the way up in that tank to 3/4 of the way up in the barebottom, it bleaches out and dies within a week or two.

IE, 400ish par in the barebottom kills corals, while its totally fine in the high nutrient tank.


Why? Because nutrient levels affect the amount of lighting needed, and the amount of light a coral can handle - as does alkalinity, and flow.

So you're never going to be able to look at a tank and say - that coral is under 700 par in that tank - so I need to put it in 700 in my tank. It may look great at 250. Or it may need 1000 in your tank.

And that's not even getting into the fact that 500 par under MH is a completely different thing than 500 par under LED, and that 500 PAR running even across all channels is very different than 500 par of just blue/violet.

I'm so sorry you are missing my point. I am not trying to argue that par is different in every tank and with every nutrient difference.

You are %100 correct, please ignore all of my previous posts and continue with this thread.

 

[BCSreef]

No, I do have some slightly larger ones than shown on the left, but they are going out as packs. I just fragged those shown 2 weeks ago.

 

[cshouston]

Cause not everyone has bags of money laying around

That’s exactly my point?

 

[cshouston]

@cshouston I have a similar approach to @Ippyroy I start my frags low in the tank on a magnetic rack, and raise them up over time. I then take them off a frag off the rack when I get to the height in the tank where I want to mount them. So I get a chance to see how they react / respond. Of course, water flow is way different between the rack and where I want to mount them.

Thanks. I’ve been doing that as well. I just know that the PAR at the outer edge where the rack is will be lower than on the rock in the center of the spread. I’ve been a little hesitant to epoxy and glue any down in case it hates the spot I choose.

 

[mindme]

Maybe some of you can help me with something that has been bothering me.

It seems that when someone asks for advice about coral placement, or lighting issues, most of the answers first start with a question: What is your PAR in the tank?

What irks me are the responses that a lot of people have: My lights are at 50%. I have (insert manufacturer here) brand, so my lights are fine. They seem pretty bright. I dunno. I can't afford that. My (insert coral name here) is growing fine. Etc. Etc.

Why is there such a resistance to measuring your lighting in your tank??? We test nitrates, ammonia, phosphate, alk, calc, etc. Why such a wall for PAR?

Too expensive?? Shoot. For $60 you can rent one. Maybe even free if you belong to a local reef club. Or buy a Seneye for a couple hundred. The price of checking your PAR can significantly outweigh the loss of a pricey coral due to a lighting issue.

Be a responsible reefer....check your PAR just like all the other parameters your check.

I do not really keep many SPS. I generally don't care what my par is. But since I have kessils, I can look at other peoples(BRS for example) ratings and go by that. Does it really matter of my estimates are off a little? No, it really doesn't. I know with those lights, I'm going to get the range I need without doing par tests.

I don't even test my water outside salinity. I can pretty much look at the tank and tell what it's going to be anyway. I know when I did my last water change. And since I don't dose anything, it's not complicated.

You can do all that if you want, I don't find it makes much difference. If I were doing SPS, I might have another opinion.

 

[Sleeping Giant]

That’s exactly my point?

Because we don't have money laying around, we shouldn't have reef tanks? Perspective is, if anything is $500 in the USA, it's basically double or triple in any other country in the world.
The trade with the USA helps no other countries but the USA. So for us Canadians, paying or finding a decent priced PAR meter is not going to happen.

Buying an aquarium and starting to build a reef slowly is not something only moneybags scrooge can buy, and is able to be achieved by almost everyone.

 

[cshouston]

Because we don't have money laying around, we shouldn't have reef tanks? Perspective is, if anything is $500 in the USA, it's basically double or triple in any other country in the world.
The trade with the USA helps no other countries but the USA. So for us Canadians, paying or finding a decent priced PAR meter is not going to happen.

Buying an aquarium and starting to build a reef slowly is not something only moneybags scrooge can buy, and is able to be achieved by almost everyone.

I’m sorry that you’re misinterpreting my post. I was playing devil’s advocate. I wasn’t saying “only rich people should have reef tanks.”

 

[ErehwoN]

Here's my situation. I know right now I have a point of sale light and I have no idea how much PAR I'm putting out, but I know it's suboptimal for continuing my journey. In the next month or two I'll upgrade to something much higher quality. At that time I'll also rent the meter for two reasons. The first, and most important, is understanding how much PAR my never-measured-but-somehow-successfully-growing-corals light is hitting right now. The next part will be putting the new light on and seeing where it hits. I know it's gonna be a huge improvement. But I don't want to cook everything in a week because I can't hit the same range with just my eyes.

Jim

 

[Dana Riddle]

Its pretty amazing what our eyes can see vs what the PAR actually is when measured.

One question I have for @Dana Riddle ...
How accurate is the Apogee USB Smart Quantum SQ-420 PAR Sensor in measuring PAR of LEDs? I run Hydra 26's with high Blue, Royal Blue, UV, Violet, medium white so tank doesn't look blue, and low red and green. Not sure the colors make a difference but thought I would throw them in just in case UV or blues matter.

I don't have access to Apogee's software and can't make a definitive statement, but if my understanding is correct, the software allows the end user to define parameters such as light source, etc. All in all, much better than guessing.

 

[Brandon3152134]

Maybe some of you can help me with something that has been bothering me.

It seems that when someone asks for advice about coral placement, or lighting issues, most of the answers first start with a question: What is your PAR in the tank?

What irks me are the responses that a lot of people have: My lights are at 50%. I have (insert manufacturer here) brand, so my lights are fine. They seem pretty bright. I dunno. I can't afford that. My (insert coral name here) is growing fine. Etc. Etc.

Why is there such a resistance to measuring your lighting in your tank??? We test nitrates, ammonia, phosphate, alk, calc, etc. Why such a wall for PAR?

Too expensive?? Shoot. For $60 you can rent one. Maybe even free if you belong to a local reef club. Or buy a Seneye for a couple hundred. The price of checking your PAR can significantly outweigh the loss of a pricey coral due to a lighting issue.

Be a responsible reefer....check your PAR just like all the other parameters your check.

I've never checked par because I find it's best to keep the coral in the shade for a little while its acclimating and then over time you can pretty much move it wherever you want. I also keep my lights on like 5 percent,have a small tank, and dont keep acros. I had a 55 gallon with a rather large sump making my total volume around 100 gallons and always had issues with acros in too intense lighting. It seemed higher light does alot more damage then not enough light.

 

[Brandon3152134]

I agree with your premise. Playing devil’s advocate though, it’s $60 plus a $500 deposit. Some people can’t afford to be out of pocket that much for over a week. If so, how they can afford a reef tank is another question entirely.

Craigslist lol

 

[Doctorgori]

Certainly you can be lighting data ignorant and successful at the same time..
Once upon a time corals used to grow under daylight fluorescents until we were told you shouldn’t, only after that did they seem to die and algae’s evolved into existence

Par? I’m pretty sure there are too many changing tank variables to base yours off of Youtube equipment testing. But in the same vein tank variables do change, so maybe ownership is worth it.
> $200 might be the limiting market barrier.

 

[StlSalt]

Its pretty amazing what our eyes can see vs what the PAR actually is when measured.

One question I have for @Dana Riddle ...
How accurate is the Apogee USB Smart Quantum SQ-420 PAR Sensor in measuring PAR of LEDs? I run Hydra 26's with high Blue, Royal Blue, UV, Violet, medium white so tank doesn't look blue, and low red and green. Not sure the colors make a difference but thought I would throw them in just in case UV or blues matter.

I have the same question. The "cheap" sq-420 is the old sensor which states " Excellent for all light sources except certain colored LEDs, " The SQ-520, $438, states "The improved spectral response of the SQ-520 increases the accuracy of LED measurements, compared to our previous models" I run Hydras too and I'm not sure if I can go with the "cheap" route. I'm not sure how different the readings are between the two sensors.

edit... Of course BRS has a video on this.

BRStv Investigates: Which PAR meter is the best?

Today on BRStv, we have a brand new episode of our series, BRStv Investigates. In this series, we explore popular reefing theories, products, methods, and what the manuals are missing, with a focus on putting them to the test! This week we take a deep look into PAR sensors and give you a...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

 

[Brandon3152134]

But you don't - because the number has no real reference value.

To give you an example - we have two Nuvo40s in the house - same lights, same schedule, same skimmer. One is lower flow and runs higher nutrients. The other is barebottom, lots of flow, low nutrients.

I can grow stuff on the starboard in one tank, and the other tank it needs to be 3/4 of the way up to color up. If I move something from 3/4 of the way up in that tank to 3/4 of the way up in the barebottom, it bleaches out and dies within a week or two.

IE, 400ish par in the barebottom kills corals, while its totally fine in the high nutrient tank.


Why? Because nutrient levels affect the amount of lighting needed, and the amount of light a coral can handle - as does alkalinity, and flow.

So you're never going to be able to look at a tank and say - that coral is under 700 par in that tank - so I need to put it in 700 in my tank. It may look great at 250. Or it may need 1000 in your tank.

And that's not even getting into the fact that 500 par under MH is a completely different thing than 500 par under LED, and that 500 PAR running even across all channels is very different than 500 par of just blue/violet.

Do you find that corals like more or less light depending on nutrients like if you had a really clean tank would you run the lightes higher or lower?. I'm assuming higher in cleaner because of polyp extension or water clarity but just wondering what you would say

 

[Timfish]

Maybe some of you can help me with something that has been bothering me. . . Why is there such a resistance to measuring your lighting in your tank??? We test nitrates, ammonia, phosphate, alk, calc, etc. Why such a wall for PAR? . . . . Be a responsible reefer....check your PAR just like all the other parameters your check.

I find it odd that some are willing to spend $1,000 on 'the coral flavor of the month' but a $200 PAR meter is too expensive.

+1

This has been bugging me for years (had to get therapy ) I've tried helping by checking PAR for local reefers after they've lost $$$ and stuff starts to recover then see them go and buy a new fixture that's "better" and costs a lot more than a PAR meter tehn in a few months I see them posting they're having the same problems bleaching corals out. Makes no sense.

 

[Dana Riddle]

+1

This has been bugging me for years (had to get therapy ) I've tried helping by checking PAR for local reefers after they've lost $$$ and stuff starts to recover then see them go and buy a new fixture that's "better" and costs a lot more than a PAR meter tehn in a few months I see them posting they're having the same problems bleaching corals out. Makes no sense.

Hey Tim, Can't PM you for some reason. Should have some results for you in a few days. Long story.