Will someone please explain?

[Perculap]

I will take a stab at another angle.

With this new digital age, everyone has access to the same corals. Day after day of seeing the same old piece being carried by every vendor - if you have a fairly stocked tank, do you really want another Dragon Eye Favia? Also, many LFS cater to their local crowd. And if you are the one person in the area that goes against the grain, you may not find what you want at your LFS.

Then you get into the collector realm. Planet Earth has many people with deep pockets. These folks with large or multiple tanks have no qualms about spending 300 for a frag. It then becomes the norm and no longer the exception.

Now, if we look at supply and demand I will use Coach and Michael Kors as an example. The stock price of Coach has steadily dropped $10 annually for the last 5 years. Michael Kors was trading close to $100 this time last year and is only worth about $40 today.

The one thing these two companies have in common are the outlet stores. Coach has had outlet stores for many years and MK is fairly new. With these outlet stores, came market saturation. Coach isn't the hot brand it was 10 years ago. MK isn't the hot brand it was 2 years ago.

 

[JBNY]

So here is a true story about one of the FB auctions from very recently. A $10 generic SPS frag from my LFS was grown out to a small colony, nice but really a pretty average looking coral. Then the person gave it a name, put a normal sized frag on the FB site for auction, and somehow a bidding war ensued and the frag ended up selling for $1500! I don't know what these people are thinking, I know that that is not typical but we were just talking about this last week at a reef swap. Crazy stuff.

As for naming the coral. I feel that named corals that are from a truly aquacultured tank, yes they all came from the ocean first, but as they become established they will generally hold their color and do well in a person's tank. The naming just helps the person keep track of the coral. In theory it shouldn't matter where you get the coral, if it is the same name it should grow and color up the same everywhere within reason.

But, freshly chopped frags off wild colonies are being given names as well, I feel this is disingenuous to the consumer. The buyer expects the coral to color up as in the picture but it ends up looking nothing like that because it was a wild coral. I feel this is the most bothersome trend that is going on. Wild corals are generally cheaper because they are not as hardy nor do they always hold their color as well so it's a bit of a gamble. And you are right the stuff that comes in on a daily bases in the LA wholesale market is truly crazy, colors are off the charts. Those with experience know that only a very few will be able to hold that in the long run. Taking pictures of these fresh corals when they first come in, and selling little frags of it for big bucks is one of the most dishonest things going on in the frag selling arena right now IMO.

As to your question on these tiny frags now a days. I personally feel this is a greedy, lazy, money grab of a practice. I think what new hobbies don't understand is how quickly a coral grows, and how with just a little more effort larger frags could be given.

So yeah the price thing bugs me. New comers into the hobby see those prices and think that for some reason you need to be spending $100-$300 for tiny frags for something really nice or so named "rare".

Scott you've known me for a long time. I have grown many corals only to literally give the mother colony to people, who then will sell it as a named coral. While I've been given credit in the name, I never ask for any money. Sell it and make some money I don't care. I still like to trade corals. I always feel that if I get free frags out of the deal then we are even. I also am happy in knowing that there is an nice group of reefers who still trade corals, for free. If you have some thing to trade that is great if not, take what I have and give me something when you get something cool. A lot of people seem to think that buying $$$ frags is the only way to do this hobby. It isn't, my last tank was 100% free frags from friends, almost every one of them a LE, high end, or expensive SPS frag at the time. This time when re-starting my tank I wanted some other corals that are not as available now, so I have bought quite a few but will trade as much as I can as the frags I have grow in size and are large enough to trade.

Scott take some comfort in that it takes hard work and time to set up a real business if you want to sell corals over a long time in this industry. Those super expensive frags selling vendors are only a flash in the pan, you are setting up a real enterprise that will be able to last long term. You are working on longevity, and that is something I can not say about all the vendors that are here today, but probably will not be tomorrow.

 

[uniquecorals]

So here is a true story about one of the FB auctions from very recently. A $10 generic SPS frag from my LFS was grown out to a small colony, nice but really a pretty average looking coral. Then the person gave it a name, put a normal sized frag on the FB site for auction, and somehow a bidding war ensued and the frag ended up selling for $1500! I don't know what these people are thinking, I know that that is not typical but we were just talking about this last week at a reef swap. Crazy stuff.

As for naming the coral. I feel that named corals that are from a truly aquacultured tank, yes they all came from the ocean first, but as they become established they will generally hold their color and do well in a person's tank. The naming just helps the person keep track of the coral. In theory it shouldn't matter where you get the coral, if it is the same name it should grow and color up the same everywhere within reason.

But, freshly chopped frags off wild colonies are being given names as well, I feel this is disingenuous to the consumer. The buyer expects the coral to color up as in the picture but it ends up looking nothing like that because it was a wild coral. I feel this is the most bothersome trend that is going on. Wild corals are generally cheaper because they are not as hardy nor do they always hold their color as well so it's a bit of a gamble. And you are right the stuff that comes in on a daily bases in the LA wholesale market is truly crazy, colors are off the charts. Those with experience know that only a very few will be able to hold that in the long run. Taking pictures of these fresh corals when they first come in, and selling little frags of it for big bucks is one of the most dishonest things going on in the frag selling arena right now IMO.

As to your question on these tiny frags now a days. I personally feel this is a greedy, lazy, money grab of a practice. I think what new hobbies don't understand is how quickly a coral grows, and how with just a little more effort larger frags could be given.

So yeah the price thing bugs me. New comers into the hobby see those prices and think that for some reason you need to be spending $100-$300 for tiny frags for something really nice or so named "rare".

Scott you've known me for a long time. I have grown many corals only to literally give the mother colony to people, who then will sell it as a named coral. While I've been given credit in the name, I never ask for any money. Sell it and make some money I don't care. I still like to trade corals. I always feel that if I get free frags out of the deal then we are even. I also am happy in knowing that there is an nice group of reefers who still trade corals, for free. If you have some thing to trade that is great if not, take what I have and give me something when you get something cool. A lot of people seem to think that buying $$$ frags is the only way to do this hobby. It isn't, my last tank was 100% free frags from friends, almost every one of them a LE, high end, or expensive SPS frag at the time. This time when re-starting my tank I wanted some other corals that are not as available now, so I have bought quite a few but will trade as much as I can as the frags I have grow in size and are large enough to trade.

Scott take some comfort in that it takes hard work and time to set up a real business if you want to sell corals over a long time in this industry. Those super expensive frags selling vendors are only a flash in the pan, you are setting up a real enterprise that will be able to last long term. You are working on longevity, and that is something I can not say about all the vendors that are here today, but probably will not be tomorrow.

Beautifully stated, Joe. I think that Im less concerned about the impact on businesses from a standpoint of "taking market share away", or that type of orientation. I'm worried that, as you point our- hobby is affected- with newcomers potentially perceiving that this type of absurdity is the "real way" that "serious" coral people do business, etc...Hobbysits like you who have always "paid it forward" are exactly what makes our hobby so different from other endeavors...And always will. I love that we all- those of us who are in it as a business AND a hobby- trade, give away, share, etc...Sure, there is absolutely nothing wrong with selling anything...I just hope that people can step back and take a big picture view of things like you've been able to do. That's the key to a successful hobby experience, IMHO- not a myopic focus on $$$ microfrags and such. There is so much more to it than that.

 

[sinekal]

I think this is a natural outcome of an irrational market...price and perceived value are not coming together.

I admit I buy rare corals at times, and will pay some premium, but I have limits. I have never purchased a nub of a frag, but probably a few that came up just shy of 1" (not on purpose!). I have never paid more than 100 for a frag, I think...although I may be wrong, if I track to close I might realize how much I have spent .

But I am not rational, I have a need I cant seem to fill, and the drive comes from a few places. I have a coral addiction! I absolutely want that coral that is close to the one I have but a slight variation. Its like a hoarder mentality! I am not like that in my broader life. My house is sparse, I hate clutter, I hate extra stuff. Its coral that does it to me. So I am promoting the issue at least a little bit, and my awareness of the problem doesn't seem to limit it one bit. I guess at least don't exacerbate the problem further by selling frags...see prior hoarder mentality comment.

I also absolutely get excited about my reef being somehow a bit unique...I have a different splash of color, some different textures and growth patterns. Im not really sure why I think this...99% of the time the only people seeing my reef live in my house, but like I said, Im not behaving rationally.

I think the next step in my irrational behavior is people like me that cant contain the want, but cant afford a budget that covers that want. As a result they are justifying 200-300 frag purchases with the logic that in 6 months they will cut the frag in half and recoup their cost, and then in another 6 months they will cut the frag in half and make enough to buy more rare corals. I really doubt this program pays off consistently, but I can speak from experience that rationality is simply not always a consideration, want and desire are winning out.

If you think about it, we all have some tendency to give into our desires, we keep reef tanks! There's nothing logical about that decision. So maybe this is just a natural outcome of grouping all of us together in a single market place.

 

[Nanofreak79]

I love your take on this. I collect some higher end pieces mostly zoanthids and palythoa. I do however also collect a few chalices and lots of lps and some sps. I have been more than shocked by some vendors coral frags. I've received quite a few lps and chalice frags that made my jaw drop, considering what I paid for them. When I need to squint my eyes and dang near need a magnifying glass, something is wrong. This is not even mentioning that even with the utmost care and quality, tank perams, you may have just thrown your money away once the frag dies from being so small and delicate. I hope everyone doesn't take this the wrong way, but the reason I don't frequent R2R is this same reason, crazy prices, not on all, but enough to make me feel like this site is for rich people willing to pay 1,000's for a tiny frag of something. I'm more of a Nanoreef guys. Jmo and my two cents.

 

[Pete polyp]

Here's something to think about....

How many of these frags are being sold at that high price? We have already established this is an unethical practice in many people's eyes. So is it far fetched to consider some of these corals with the high price tag never sold for the insanely high price? Have you ever thought some of these auctions or sales are intentionally inflated to set the price of them with money never being exchanged? To me it's unethical to do so, but marketing gold at the same time. Let's say bill has a nice acro and pretends to sell a frag every week for $1500. To some $1500 becomes a fair market value because 5 other people bought it for $1500. Man, my car didn't cost much more than $1500 so there's no way I would pay that much for a single coral. I might not have spent that much filling my entire tank!

 

[JBNY]

Many of those corals do not sell for that price, you are correct. But for unsuspecting people who do not know this and do pay it, it is still taking advantage of people, that is the part that bothers me. I don't feel that it is a fair business practice to market that way. I know some people think that there is a sucker born every minuet and if they want to pay then so be it. I'd rather be part of the group that makes things better for us all.

 

[Larry L]

... something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it holds. How is this any different than a rare postage stamp that collectors would pay thousands for? Or a rare baseball card?

Agree in general, but rare stamps or baseball cards are a different thing... There are only so many original Honus Wagner cards left in the whole world, and there will never be more, so I can see where at least the rarity is some justification for the kind of price it would bring. But with coral frags (assuming you have any luck keeping them alive), you can generally just keep making more, which makes the whole phenomenon even more baffling to me.

 

[Slm222]

i believe what you said is the truth. There is only one thing they are about. I ran a test after reading an article a while back about SPS propagation and it turned out to be entirely true. Paraphrasing, the mortality rate dramatically decreases as the frag size cut is increased and the growth rate of the frag is faster on frags atleast 1 inch or more. I cut two frag off of a tubbs mystic blue sps. One frag was the tip with just 1 polyp and the other was about 1 inch. They both survived, but the 1 inch frag has encrusted well and has moved on to another tank. the frag with a single polyp has grown over 4 months to about 10-12 polyps and is slowly encrusting the 3/4 inch plug. and I mean slowly! the purpose for my drawn out statement is as hobbyist and for the sake of the coral, and the money I spend, I would rather get a 1 inch or bigger frag that starts encrusting and growing to a colony in my tank. but I guess to each his own.


oh ya, when did a couple of branches of SPS encrusted on a frag constitute a colony?

 

[Naiad]

This hobby has become filled with greed. Don't get me wrong there are plenty of great reefers out there but so many more just wanting to take your money. I filled my first tank with decent corals including a frag of 5+ rastas, 4 in orange plate coral, 6 in rainbow brain ect. without spending more than 60 bucks on a single coral thanks to fellow reefers. Now even the corals/frags sold by reefers are outrageous.

 

[uniquecorals]

I think this is a natural outcome of an irrational market...price and perceived value are not coming together.

I admit I buy rare corals at times, and will pay some premium, but I have limits. I have never purchased a nub of a frag, but probably a few that came up just shy of 1" (not on purpose!). I have never paid more than 100 for a frag, I think...although I may be wrong, if I track to close I might realize how much I have spent .

But I am not rational, I have a need I cant seem to fill, and the drive comes from a few places. I have a coral addiction! I absolutely want that coral that is close to the one I have but a slight variation. Its like a hoarder mentality! I am not like that in my broader life. My house is sparse, I hate clutter, I hate extra stuff. Its coral that does it to me. So I am promoting the issue at least a little bit, and my awareness of the problem doesn't seem to limit it one bit. I guess at least don't exacerbate the problem further by selling frags...see prior hoarder mentality comment.

I also absolutely get excited about my reef being somehow a bit unique...I have a different splash of color, some different textures and growth patterns. Im not really sure why I think this...99% of the time the only people seeing my reef live in my house, but like I said, Im not behaving rationally.

I think the next step in my irrational behavior is people like me that cant contain the want, but cant afford a budget that covers that want. As a result they are justifying 200-300 frag purchases with the logic that in 6 months they will cut the frag in half and recoup their cost, and then in another 6 months they will cut the frag in half and make enough to buy more rare corals. I really doubt this program pays off consistently, but I can speak from experience that rationality is simply not always a consideration, want and desire are winning out.

If you think about it, we all have some tendency to give into our desires, we keep reef tanks! There's nothing logical about that decision. So maybe this is just a natural outcome of grouping all of us together in a single market place.

Very well stated..."I want- I enjoy-I buy. Cost is irrelevant" may be the "new normal" nowadays! lol

 

[jolt]

Just FYI, this thread has been linked and is being applauded by at least a few folks on one of the FB groups ... I found that interesting!

 

[uniquecorals]

I love your take on this. I collect some higher end pieces mostly zoanthids and palythoa. I do however also collect a few chalices and lots of lps and some sps. I have been more than shocked by some vendors coral frags. I've received quite a few lps and chalice frags that made my jaw drop, considering what I paid for them. When I need to squint my eyes and **** near need a magnifying glass, something is wrong. This is not even mentioning that even with the utmost care and quality, tank perams, you may have just thrown your money away once the frag dies from being so small and delicate. I hope everyone doesn't take this the wrong way, but the reason I don't frequent R2R is this same reason, crazy prices, not on all, but enough to make me feel like this site is for rich people willing to pay 1,000's for a tiny frag of something. I'm more of a Nanoreef guys. Jmo and my two cents.

I totally understand your position. I'm not even sure how many reefers are prepared to handle a "microchip-sized corallite-plus 1 mm of skeleton" type thing...Whatever happened to patience? Fresh cut corals are okay when it's your buddy in the local reef club hooking you up, but shipping something cross country that you've paid $$$ for in that shape makes no sense to me at all..

 

[Naiad]

Having been out of the "scene" for a while it was a bit of a shock to see shroom frags going for hundreds of dollars. Our local frag "swap" is coming up in a few months and I really hope it is not filled with only rare micro frags.

 

[uniquecorals]

i believe what you said is the truth. There is only one thing they are about. I ran a test after reading an article a while back about SPS propagation and it turned out to be entirely true. Paraphrasing, the mortality rate dramatically decreases as the frag size cut is increased and the growth rate of the frag is faster on frags atleast 1 inch or more. I cut two frag off of a tubbs mystic blue sps. One frag was the tip with just 1 polyp and the other was about 1 inch. They both survived, but the 1 inch frag has encrusted well and has moved on to another tank. the frag with a single polyp has grown over 4 months to about 10-12 polyps and is slowly encrusting the 3/4 inch plug. and I mean slowly! the purpose for my drawn out statement is as hobbyist and for the sake of the coral, and the money I spend, I would rather get a 1 inch or bigger frag that starts encrusting and growing to a colony in my tank. but I guess to each his own.


oh ya, when did a couple of branches of SPS encrusted on a frag constitute a colony?

Yeah...when did THAT happen?

 

[Omega0397]

I'm relatively new to the hobby (about 3 years into it) so I don't remember the good 'ole days of large frags, people more interested in trades than cash, etc. While that all sounds great, I also doubt it was all hugs and rainbows and not about the money. As the internet has grown (along with the hobby) the barrier to entry is in many ways lower than it was and there is a wider market for reef related products. Now that buyers and sellers have more access to each other I can easily see why we are where we are at now.

If people are willing to pay for over-saturated photos of booger frags, then people are going to sell just that and from a financial standpoint they would be foolish not to. However, if I buy a hyper-ultra-LE-rainbow coral from someone and spend big $$$ on it only to get a brownish spec on a shiny frag plug that struggles and dies in a week, then you had better believe I will be dragging that persons name through the mud. You may not always get what you pay for, but I believe that you reap what you sow!

Realistically, some of prices people are paying are for corals that there aren't a lot of yet. Remember when the Jason Fox Jack-0-Lantern came out and was going for big money? Yeah, you can get them now for a very reasonable price because they grow well. Does that mean the initial buyers were ripped off? No, they were paying to essentially be first in line and most likely were able to recoup their costs when their frags grew out. The same goes for the current bounce craze. The WWC bounce is beautiful! Will I pay $500-$1000 for one, heck no! I know they grow well and will patiently wait until they come down in price enough that I'm willing to purchase one.

For me this is a hobby, for others it's a business or even an obsession. While I don't exactly get the warm fuzzies when I see a high priced LE booger frag, nobodies twisting my arm to buy it either. Encourage your fellow hobbyists to do the same and you will see the prices come down and the sizes go up.

 

[uniquecorals]

Just FYI, this thread has been linked and is being applauded by at least a few folks on one of the FB groups ... I found that interesting!

Bizzare, actually. Nothing surprises me nowadays...But like I said, it's not like all reefers selling and trading on FB are "bad" or doing something nefarious- it's just that FB has become the latest bastion of coral absurdity...I just don't understand the phenomenon behind the crazy pricing and microsizing...As so many have pointed out already, if someone gets a thrill out of paying too much for too little, it's all cool...I guess...

 

[millertyler22]

Personally I always look for a "steal" I love zoas but I'm not willing to spend huge money because I'm the kind of person who likes to find that hidden gem behind or under the frag rack
Then again to me that is the fun of this hobby

 

[Pete polyp]

Personally I always look for a "steal" I love zoas but I'm not willing to spend huge money because I'm the kind of person who likes to find that hidden gem behind or under the frag rack
Then again to me that is the fun of this hobby

This is me exactly.... carefully searching the tanks until I find the 1 polyp that fell off a colony

 

[Battlecorals]

Just FYI, this thread has been linked and is being applauded by at least a few folks on one of the FB groups ... I found that interesting!

Oh, the irony just oozes, and glistens whilst it does.