Writing Prompt: Nitrifying bacteria are undesirable in a reef tank

[BigMonkeyBrain]

You mean this? Obviously you may want to combat rising nitrate, if that’s of concern.

DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

Some reef aquaria have chronic low nitrogen availability. One indicator is very low nitrate. Nitrate dosing is a fine remedy, but it is possible that ammonia dosing may be more beneficial for some organisms since ammonia can be energetically easier to assimilate than is nitrate. For this...

www.reef2reef.com

No; the end product would be nitrate. The post was about nitrifying bacteria, and all current consensus state that nitrifying bacteria continue to grow with food ( ammonia ). So, dosing ammonia in IMO would not be beneficial in the long run.

Probably happens !

 

[Koty]

That’s a fine answer in some cases, but more fish and more fish foods also brings other issues, including yellowing of the water, increased organics, more O2 consumption, and more phosphate addition.

Agree. My setup is aimed at addresing the "other issues". For whatever reason i do not have any apparent yellowing.

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

Agree. My setup is aimed at addresing the "other issues". For whatever reason i do not have any apparent yellowing.

Agree. Dosing ammonia is a very clean way of increasing nitrate. This post is not about increasing nitrate with the dosing of ammonia.

Probably happens !

 

[MRL]

Please

OK, so the world of reefing is loaded with folks talking about nitrifying bacteria as good bacteria, and some other bacteria are bad.

I think it's a perfectly valid hypothesis that cannot be easily dismissed that nitrifying bacteria are bad for a fully stocked reef aquarium.

Here's the step by step rationale:

1. Corals prefer to take up ammonia instead of nitrate, and will preferentially take ammonia when both are present.

2. Nitrate requires extra energy to use as a source of N, relative to ammonia.

3. When nitrifying bacteria are present, they can grab up ammonia present in the water and convert it to nitrate, leaving less ammonia for corals.

4. Corals, seeing inadequate ammonia then need to take up nitrate, causing reefers to want to raise nitrate above natural levels to ensure corals have at least something as a source of N.

5. Studies show that elevated nitrate can cause detrimental effects on corals.

Hypothesis: Contrary to popular belief, nitrifying bacteria are undesirable in an operating and fully stocked reef aquarium where there are plenty of ammonia consumers.

Please cite peer reviewed studies that is aquarium specific not ocean, as the concentration of ammonia in open ocean so low that our standard test in the hobby as to be undetectable

Any bacteria in an unbalanced number would be considered pathogenic.

Your point 5 is in regards to elevated temperature & elevated nitrates but has less effects in normal temperature.

Are you referring to coral only tanks? Elevated ammonia in makes fish gills less efficient & can cause gill damage.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Please

Please cite peer reviewed studies that is aquarium specific not ocean, as the concentration of ammonia in open ocean so low that our standard test in the hobby as to be undetectable

Any bacteria in an unbalanced number would be considered pathogenic.

Your point 5 is in regards to elevated temperature & elevated nitrates but has less effects in normal temperature.

Are you referring to coral only tanks? Elevated ammonia in makes fish gills less efficient & can cause gill damage.

What are you asking for? Do you contend that natural ocean levels of ammonia are toxic to fish?

I think I made it perfectly clear in the first post that unnaturally low ammonia in reef tanks due to bacterial nitrifiers is a hypothesis that I do not believe is easily disproven. I’m not claiming it is a fact that I’m on a crusade to convince you of.

It is a different hypothesis that the ammonia can be raised to benefit corals.

Either one, both, or neither may be true.

 

[DIFish]

Responding to the initial writing prompt. I would legitimately buy a product similar to seachem prime that could be used to protect fish from high ammonia while leaving it available for corals.


Try the newest product on the market today-

Composite*TM ammonia inhibitor
Tired of your pesky reef bacteria stealing all your free ammonia? Worried about damaging your fish but still want to give your corals the best ammonia available?
Composites’ dual purpose formula slows down the conversion of Ammonia to nitrate by blocking bacteria uptake while also binding to your fishes gills to protect from elevated ammonia levels. Now you can add ammonia at your convenience without measuring up to 2.5ppm

This patented product will allow free ammonia to feed your corals without having to worry about the safety of your fish. Just add 1ml/ 25 gallons approximately 12 hours before dosing ammonia. For best results, turn off your skimmer for 6 hours after dosing. Please allow 48 hours between uses. Try composite today, it’s what the corals crave.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Responding to the initial writing prompt. I would legitimately buy a product similar to seachem prime that could be used to protect fish from high ammonia while leaving it available for corals.


Try the newest product on the market today-

Composite*TM ammonia inhibitor
Tired of your pesky reef bacteria stealing all your free ammonia? Worried about damaging your fish but still want to give your corals the best ammonia available?
Composites’ dual purpose formula slows down the conversion of Ammonia to nitrate by blocking bacteria uptake while also binding to your fishes gills to protect from elevated ammonia levels. Now you can add ammonia at your convenience without measuring up to 2.5ppm

This patented product will allow free ammonia to feed your corals without having to worry about the safety of your fish. Just add 1ml/ 25 gallons approximately 12 hours before dosing ammonia. For best results, turn off your skimmer for 6 hours after dosing. Please allow 48 hours between uses. Try composite today, it’s what the corals crave.

Just as a side note, experiments show that Seachem Prime does not work to reduce ammonia as Seachem claims. Folks should avoid the temptation to be duped into believing them and using it.

 

[DIFish]

Just as a side note, Seachem Prime does not work to reduce ammonia as Seachem claims. Folks should avoid the temptation to be duped into believing them and using it.

Any idea if it helps protect from ammonia burn/ammonia damage in freshwater? My understanding was that ammonia levels remained unchanged but the ammonia was inhibited in some way.

Have been using it for years after cycling freshwater tanks to “protect” new fish from any sudden jumps. Would be sad to know I was doing it for nothing…

 

[twentyleagues]

Any idea if it helps protect from ammonia burn/ammonia damage in freshwater? My understanding was that ammonia levels remained unchanged but the ammonia was inhibited in some way.

Have been using it for years after cycling freshwater tanks to “protect” new fish from any sudden jumps. Would be sad to know I was doing it for nothing…

It does some how make the ammonia inert. Which is why I dont add it to a cycled or cycling tank. It works great for acclimating fish and inverts after they have been in a bag for a long period such as shipping over seas. I worked at a local fish store in 2010ish. Seachem had a rep in and showed us the proper way to use it. It was a lot easier to do then checking the water of every bag and adjusting the parameters of the tank to match said bag. Saved time, money and fish. One or two drops in the freshly opened bag rendered the ammonia filled water safe to then drip acclimate the fish.

 

[brandon429]

In freshwater, ammonia isn't very dangerous at all, it's nitrite, so it didn't have any loading to bear. It was an easy claim to put on the label to sell the additive for 25 years

 

[MrPike]

It does some how make the ammonia inert. Which is why I dont add it to a cycled or cycling tank. It works great for acclimating fish and inverts after they have been in a bag for a long period such as shipping over seas. I worked at a local fish store in 2010ish. Seachem had a rep in and showed us the proper way to use it. It was a lot easier to do then checking the water of every bag and adjusting the parameters of the tank to match said bag. Saved time, money and fish. One or two drops in the freshly opened bag rendered the ammonia filled water safe to then drip acclimate the fish.

As an owner of a store, we use to do the same. After reading the thread on ammonia and prime and other binders being hog wash, we stopped. Haven’t noticed any uptick in mortality.

 

[twentyleagues]

In freshwater, ammonia isn't very dangerous at all, it's nitrite, so it didn't have any loading to bear. It was an easy claim to put on the label to sell the additive for 25 years

ammonia is toxic in fresh and salt the severity im unsure on but it will kill freshwater fish too.

 

[twentyleagues]

As an owner of a store, we use to do the same. After reading the thread on ammonia and prime and other binders being hog wash, we stopped. Haven’t noticed any uptick in mortality.

interesting. We noticed less fish deaths during acclimation or just after when used.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Any idea if it helps protect from ammonia burn/ammonia damage in freshwater? My understanding was that ammonia levels remained unchanged but the ammonia was inhibited in some way.

Have been using it for years after cycling freshwater tanks to “protect” new fish from any sudden jumps. Would be sad to know I was doing it for nothing…

I don't know if it works in freshwater or not, but I'm certainly skeptical. I have never seen anyone provide any experimental evidence that Prime works in any environment.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Interesting thread that got quite some attention since Friday, so I only scanned through the posts yet. Some very interesting turns.

I just wanted to add that there is a kind of empiric proof that (much) nitrification is not necessary: Oxidating filters like the canister filters used for freshwater aquaria, sponge filters etc. which are very effective substrates for nitrifying bacteria never really prevailed in reef tanks.

In the very early reef keeping a brand, Dupla, tried to advertise trickle filters with plastic "bio balls" but after some initial success reefers soon (largely) gave up using any oxidating filters.

Do you agree? Is this generally accepted?

Regarding nitrifying bacteria (excluding the AOA, ammonia oxidizing archaea): These are chemoautotrophs, so they really need something they can metabolize, ammonia for the ones and nitrite for the others. They also need some concentrations. If they don't get them they just will starve. In most tanks ammonia oxidizing bacteria just won't get enough ammonia to survive or at least to form a substantial population.

However, for ammonia oxidizing archaea this seems not be just as true since they populate not only surfaces and water column but also animals like sponges, corals and fishes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It does some how make the ammonia inert. Which is why I dont add it to a cycled or cycling tank. It works great for acclimating fish and inverts after they have been in a bag for a long period such as shipping over seas. I worked at a local fish store in 2010ish. Seachem had a rep in and showed us the proper way to use it. It was a lot easier to do then checking the water of every bag and adjusting the parameters of the tank to match said bag. Saved time, money and fish. One or two drops in the freshly opened bag rendered the ammonia filled water safe to then drip acclimate the fish.

Well, I don't believe it and the scientific data against it are very convincing.

Lots of folks make statements like yours, and Seachem thrives off it, but neither you nor anyone else has a single experiment showing works other than hypothetical assertions of what would have happened had they not used it. Like garlic keeping vampires away: it never fails.

 

[twentyleagues]

Well, I don't believe it and the scientific data against it are very convincing.

Lots of folks make statements like yours, and Seachem thrives off it, but neither you nor anyone else has a single experiment showing works other than hypothetical assertions of what would have happened had they not used it. Like garlic keeping vampires away: it never fails.

True. No Scientific tests just a couple years of use about 2 times a month getting 50 or so bags of fish from the airport. Prior to use a few(maybe a 1/3) of those fish would die in the tanks after being added(with in a day) with no apparent damage or disease. After we started using prime and acclimating them to the tank parameters in their shipping water unexplained deaths diminished greatly. Just so you all know I dont currently use or advocate the use of prime especially in tanks and have seen or at least thought it may have caused issues with cycling of ammonia, which would mean its doing something. Is it just snake oil? I have no proof either way and no skin in the game.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

True. No Scientific tests just a couple years of use about 2 times a month getting 50 or so bags of fish from the airport. Prior to use a few(maybe a 1/3) of those fish would die in the tanks after being added(with in a day) with no apparent damage or disease. After we started using prime and acclimating them to the tank parameters in their shipping water unexplained deaths diminished greatly. Just so you all know I dont currently use or advocate the use of prime especially in tanks and have seen or at least thought it may have caused issues with cycling of ammonia, which would mean its doing something. Is it just snake oil? I have no proof either way and no skin in the game.

I don't have any skin in the game either. Just evaluating other's experiments demonstrating lack of reduction in free ammonia, even when tested exactly in the assays Seachem says will work.

Here's the thread:

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

This started when @Dan_P was looking at measuring NH3 with seneye and was curious about performance near zero NH3. I suggested trying Prime to artificially zero out the NH3 sensor, and the results were weird... so I checked with my seachem kit. Prime by Seachem is commonly used to treat tap...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[DIFish]

I don't have any skin in the game either. Just evaluating other's experiments demonstrating lack of reduction in free ammonia, even when tested exactly in the assays Seachem says will work.

Here's the thread:

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

This started when @Dan_P was looking at measuring NH3 with seneye and was curious about performance near zero NH3. I suggested trying Prime to artificially zero out the NH3 sensor, and the results were weird... so I checked with my seachem kit. Prime by Seachem is commonly used to treat tap...

www.reef2reef.com

Really interesting thread. Was just thinking of popping my Seneye in some water myself to test it but looks like the proof is there.

Have gone through multiple gallons over the years and it is used heavily in freshwater where RO/Filtered water is not common. Guess it still functions as a chlorine and chloramine remover right?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

. Guess it still functions as a chlorine and chloramine remover right?

I would guess it breaks up chlorine and chloramine, and I do not recall seeing any contrary data.