Writing Prompt: Nitrifying bacteria are undesirable in a reef tank

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, so the world of reefing is loaded with folks talking about nitrifying bacteria as good bacteria, and some other bacteria are bad.

I think it's a perfectly valid hypothesis that cannot be easily dismissed that nitrifying bacteria are bad for a fully stocked reef aquarium.

Here's the step by step rationale:

1. Corals prefer to take up ammonia instead of nitrate, and will preferentially take ammonia when both are present.

2. Nitrate requires extra energy to use as a source of N, relative to ammonia.

3. When nitrifying bacteria are present, they can grab up ammonia present in the water and convert it to nitrate, leaving less ammonia for corals.

4. Corals, seeing inadequate ammonia then need to take up nitrate, causing reefers to want to raise nitrate above natural levels to ensure corals have at least something as a source of N.

5. Studies show that elevated nitrate can cause detrimental effects on corals.

Hypothesis: Contrary to popular belief, nitrifying bacteria are undesirable in an operating and fully stocked reef aquarium where there are plenty of ammonia consumers.

 

[Miami Reef]

I think this is exactly what happens in my tank. When I add food/dose ammonia, it basically goes straight to nitrate. Then some corals starve and pale out. I have suspected this for a while.

I try to keep N on the backend low, but I feed multiple times a day.

 

[MrPike]

Lot of threads of people dosing Cipro and finding their tank improves and death of certain coral decreases…perhaps instead of curing bacterial infections, the Cipro is killing the nitrifying bacteria allowing more ammonia to make its way to the possibly starving coral.

 

[Dom]

OK, so the world of reefing is loaded with folks talking about nitrifying bacteria as good bacteria, and some other bacteria are bad.

I think it's a perfectly valid hypothesis that cannot be easily dismissed that nitrifying bacteria are bad for a fully stocked reef aquarium.

Here's the step by step rationale:

1. Corals prefer to take up ammonia instead of nitrate, and will preferentially take ammonia when both are present.

2. Nitrate requires extra energy to use as a source of N, relative to ammonia.

3. When nitrifying bacteria are present, they can grab up ammonia present in the water and convert it to nitrate, leaving less ammonia for corals.

4. Corals, seeing inadequate ammonia then need to take up nitrate, causing reefers to want to raise nitrate above natural levels to ensure corals have at least something as a source of N.

5. Studies show that elevated nitrate can cause detrimental effects on corals.

Hypothesis: Contrary to popular belief, nitrifying bacteria are undesirable in an operating and fully stocked reef aquarium where there are plenty of ammonia consumers.

So then corals would benefit from dosing ammonia instead of nitrates?

 

[Garf]

People live a lot longer and healthier lives now compared to before the time that doctors starting killing bacteria, willy, nilly. However, that experiment isn’t turning out very well. How would we cope with masses of healthy coral in our tank?

 

[taricha]

(3 years in the future somewhere on the forum)
"Yes, I have my dissolved oxygen probe so I can check the O2 at sand level and try to keep it around 2mg/L or less. That really helps keep the nitrification to a minimum. And it helps the denitrification too, so it improves my ammonia / nitrate ratio."

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So then corals would benefit from dosing ammonia instead of nitrates?

Potentially, yes:

DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

Some reef aquaria have chronic low nitrogen availability. One indicator is very low nitrate. Nitrate dosing is a fine remedy, but it is possible that ammonia dosing may be more beneficial for some organisms since ammonia can be energetically easier to assimilate than is nitrate. For this...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[blaxsun]

5. Studies show that elevated nitrate can cause detrimental effects on corals.

What's considered "elevated nitrates"? In a heavily-stocked tank with numerous sources of ammonia (fish waste, etc.), could undetectable traces of ammonia and excellent coral growth suggest that the reef is in fact doing well despite elevated nitrate levels? (more than 25ppm)

 

[dangles]

So we know at a certain point ammonia damages the gills of fish. Do we know if there are ill effects on corals at all?

And do you suspect there’s a diminishing point of return? As in, “up to X ppm it’s beneficial, beyond that it’s harmful.” Or something.

I love watching theories develop and get explored. The scientific process is fun

 

[george9]

Hm, so how would one hypothetically limit nitrifying bacteria in an already established tank?

 

[Waters]

I think that would benefit only if one could guarantee that ammonia will be readily used up and remain at low levels....otherwise you have to worry about the health of the fish?

 

[ReefDreamz]

Lot of threads of people dosing Cipro and finding their tank improves and death of certain coral decreases…perhaps instead of curing bacterial infections, the Cipro is killing the nitrifying bacteria allowing more ammonia to make its way to the possibly starving coral.

Didnt @AquaBiomics test this and find that cipro didn't alter the nitrifying community significantly?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What's considered "elevated nitrates"? In a heavily-stocked tank with numerous sources of ammonia (fish waste, etc.), could undetectable traces of ammonia and excellent coral growth suggest that the reef is in fact doing well despite elevated nitrate levels? (more than 25ppm)

I do not know, but it is possible that for a coral, if ammonia is present in sufficient supply, they may ignore the higher concentration of nitrate.

 

[PeterErc]

So chloramines , good or bad?


BRS will have a new video, everyone needs to by an ammoniator and hypochlorite generator. Chloramines will be the next craze, sterilize nitrifying bacteria and feed you corals all in one.
KZ will have a new product, chloramine in a bottle

 

[Doctorgori]

Once I started seeing those nitrate/phosphate dosing threads I got totally confused… if you have so much coral bio-load that you can’t keep up, seemed to me some combination of adjusting bacteria, food or actually removing corals would bring things back in balance…

never could understand the point

Also … this might be the 3rd time I’m asking the public at large, but what would the effects be of carbon dosing during cycle?

Also, are those “bacterial dosing” product like MB7 “Good Nitrifying” bacteria or what in fact are they?

Summoning TM @Hans-Werner ?

 

[MrPike]

Didnt @AquaBiomics test this and find that cipro didn't alter the nitrifying community significantly?

Can the test count the quantity of bacteria present though? It can take account of the types present, obviously.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think that would benefit only if one could guarantee that ammonia will be readily used up and remain at low levels....otherwise you have to worry about the health of the fish?

True, and since we cannot really know how much ammonia in any scenario is taken up by what organisms, it is certainly possible that without nitrifying bacteria (even if such a thing were possible), a reefer would have to determine their ammonia dose carefully to ensure it was enough and not too much.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can the test count the quantity of bacteria present though? It can take account of the types present, obviously.

What it cannot do is determine how much ammonia is processed in any given reef tank by nitrifying bacteria, even if the numbers of the actual bacteria fall.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So chloramines , good or bad?


BRS will have a new video, everyone needs to by an ammoniator and hypochlorite generator. Chloramines will be the next craze, sterilize nitrifying bacteria and feed you corals all in one.
KZ will have a new product, chloramine in a bottle

I'm not holding my breath on that one. lol

 

[Doctorgori]

So chloramines , good or bad?


BRS will have a new video, everyone needs to by an ammoniator and hypochlorite generator. Chloramines will be the next craze, sterilize nitrifying bacteria and feed you corals all in one.
KZ will have a new product, chloramine in a bottle

IBRS videos have a “infomercial” feel …. theories, best practices and product endorsements might be SKU related