Yellow Hawkfish not eating in QT

[jassermd]

Need some advice... Please!
I have a yellow hawkfish that came down with ich. Took my UV offline for a while and I think it was enough for a breakthrough... and I stupidly introduced a juvenile emperor 2 mo ago w/o quarantine -- cue the shame walk gif---

Moving past the shame and onto the problem...
He's been in a QT tank for 6 days now and hasn't eaten a single bite. He's normally a voracious eater and the boss when it comes to feeding time.
He's in QT alone, copper (coppersafe) is at 2.42.
Timeline:
Friday - caught and put in QT tank, monitored to ensure that I was treating the right thing and that he wasn't in distress. He was breathing normal and not in distress. Allowed him to settle in.
Sat - Freshwater dip and began dosing copper (1/2 dose).
Sun - Dosed copper to therapeutic (2.42 Hanna)

Daily testing of copper - 2.40-2.50 consistently
Standard 10g QT tank, with HOB and sponge/air filter, heater, ammonia badge, PVC. Water changes ever 3 days w/ dosed water.

I'm quite concerned that he's gone 6 days without eating. He normally eats anything and everything I put in the tank when he was in the DT... Since in QT, I've tried mysis, large mysis (his fav), brine, carnivore cuisine, squid and even live ghost shrimp. Nothing... won't even pay any attention to it.
He's swimming normally, perching against the glass or PVC, and no gilling or heavy breathing. Since copper was started, the ich spots have disappeared and he has no signs of any disease, infection or otherwise. Other than not eating, he looks good and is acting fairly normal.

What to do??? @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081 Please chime in if you can.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Copper is known to suppress appetite, not sure if coppersafe specifically does as well.
The other possibility is just still being stressed in the new environment. A lot of fish are known to go on hunger strikes after transport.

 

[Mjl714]

Ammonia is zero? I see you’ve got a badge, but a test might help to be sure.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Need some advice... Please!
I have a yellow hawkfish that came down with ich. Took my UV offline for a while and I think it was enough for a breakthrough... and I stupidly introduced a juvenile emperor 2 mo ago w/o quarantine -- cue the shame walk gif---

Moving past the shame and onto the problem...
He's been in a QT tank for 6 days now and hasn't eaten a single bite. He's normally a voracious eater and the boss when it comes to feeding time.
He's in QT alone, copper (coppersafe) is at 2.42.
Timeline:
Friday - caught and put in QT tank, monitored to ensure that I was treating the right thing and that he wasn't in distress. He was breathing normal and not in distress. Allowed him to settle in.
Sat - Freshwater dip and began dosing copper (1/2 dose).
Sun - Dosed copper to therapeutic (2.42 Hanna)

Daily testing of copper - 2.40-2.50 consistently
Standard 10g QT tank, with HOB and sponge/air filter, heater, ammonia badge, PVC. Water changes ever 3 days w/ dosed water.

I'm quite concerned that he's gone 6 days without eating. He normally eats anything and everything I put in the tank when he was in the DT... Since in QT, I've tried mysis, large mysis (his fav), brine, carnivore cuisine, squid and even live ghost shrimp. Nothing... won't even pay any attention to it.
He's swimming normally, perching against the glass or PVC, and no gilling or heavy breathing. Since copper was started, the ich spots have disappeared and he has no signs of any disease, infection or otherwise. Other than not eating, he looks good and is acting fairly normal.

What to do??? @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081 Please chime in if you can.

I wish stores would stop with ammonia badges as they are also for freshwater tanks. They are as non-reliable as API kits when it comes to accuracy. I suggest take a water sample to a trusted LFS that does not use API kits and see what readings they come up with. As for ich, do you have pic or two under white lighting for confirmation ?
The quarantine you mention seems adequate. If the fishs' breathing is labored - add airstone. 6 days without eating not yet a concern as Coppersafe will lower appetite a little. First importance is to get rid of parasites

 

[jassermd]

Thanks to both!
I figured there would be an element of acclimation and changes, as well as the suppression of appetite w/ copper.
I have 3 other fish in QT and all started eating within a day. They’ve been in another set of tanks for 21 days… so the issue with the hawk is a bit prolonged based on my experience.

Water change was yesterday and ammonia checked with Red Sea was near zero. Hard to get a good accurate reading on ammonia when using copper… I’m religious with the WC every 3 days. I also use “cured” filter sponges from my DT sump.

 

[jassermd]

I wish stores would stop with ammonia badges as they are also for freshwater tanks. They are as non-reliable as API kits when it comes to accuracy. I suggest take a water sample to a trusted LFS that does not use API kits and see what readings they come up with. As for ich, do you have pic or two under white lighting for confirmation ?
The quarantine you mention seems adequate. If the fishs' breathing is labored - add airstone. 6 days without eating not yet a concern as Coppersafe will lower appetite a little. First importance is to get rid of parasites

Thanks vetteguy!
I’m running an air stone already. I don’t use API for anything! I checked with Red Sea and it was near zero. No labored breathing at all.
Here’s a pic of him the first day with before he was moved to his own tank.

The Harlequin is in his own 20g same set up and is eating like a champ.

 

[Mjl714]

A couple of beautiful fish, goodluck with your qt processes. I like the normal breathing you describe.

 

[tgrick]

Did you raise the copper SLOWLY over a few days?

Here is my advice and what I would do now in your situation: Ten (10) days after copper is at a therapeutic levels (above 2ppm) I would remove the fish and place them in a new tank with ALL NEW equipment and filters. In other words, a new sterile tank! All the ick in the TROPHONT stage 'SHOULD' have dropped off the fish. That cycle is 3 to 9 days. Without copper they should start eating again in the new tank. In general, a fish not eating for ten days will survive. I would NOT LOWER the copper levels to get them eating because you will have to start all over again.

So, in 10 days all the ick would have dropped off the fish and should be gone. The original quarantine tank WILL HAVE TOMITES so you will need to sterile that tank. If left alone to completely dry that will kill the TOMITES. The bigger issue is the display tank. You will need to go fallow in the display for 76 days. It's less for ick really, so you will need to look that up. If the fish are returned to the display tank they will be re infected.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks vetteguy!
I’m running an air stone already. I don’t use API for anything! I checked with Red Sea and it was near zero. No labored breathing at all.
Here’s a pic of him the first day with before he was moved to his own tank.

The Harlequin is in his own 20g same set up and is eating like a champ.

Beautiful Tusk
yes, looks like ich. Just wanted to assure not velvet or other condition. Bump your temperature to 80f also.

 

[jassermd]

Did you raise the copper SLOWLY over a few days?

Here is my advice and what I would do now in your situation: Ten (10) days after copper is at a therapeutic levels (above 2ppm) I would remove the fish and place them in a new tank with ALL NEW equipment and filters. In other words, a new sterile tank! All the ick in the TROPHONT stage 'SHOULD' have dropped off the fish. That cycle is 3 to 9 days. Without copper they should start eating again in the new tank. In general, a fish not eating for ten days will survive. I would NOT LOWER the copper levels to get them eating because you will have to start all over again.

So, in 10 days all the ick would have dropped off the fish and should be gone. The original quarantine tank WILL HAVE TOMITES so you will need to sterile that tank. If left alone to completely dry that will kill the TOMITES. The bigger issue is the display tank. You will need to go fallow in the display for 76 days. It's less for ick really, so you will need to look that up. If the fish are returned to the display tank they will be re infected.

Thanks to all for your advice and kind words!
Temp is set 79-80. I'll definitely bump that up a bit.

tgrick: Thanks for the insights. Yes, copper was raised slowly over 48 hrs. 1/2 day one, and 1/2 day 2.
That's what I was thinking as well. Go for 10-14 days with copper and transfer to a completely new and clean tank, similar to a TTM process, but having treated with copper for the first 10-14 days. I was torn as to whether I should risk pulling him out of copper in hopes that he eats, or risking him through the complete process. No clear answer, that's for sure. Appreciate your recommendation.

Regarding the DT... I hear you loud and clear. I would definitely go fallow, but unfortunately, with 300# of rock and 2 sand digging fish (watchman goby and pearly jawfish), I'm betting it's not possible. I'm confident I can catch my other fish, but those 2 will likely be quite a challenge.
Interestingly, I have 5 tangs (naso, yellow, tomini, djardini, and gem) all of which are completely healthy and doing great. So are the 2 dwarf angels, disco blennie, lamarck angel and emperor angel; other than the hawk and tusk, no fish are showing no signs of anything. No spots or any other signs, including rubbing, scratching, flashing, yawning, or just acting funny. It's been 6 days without any signs...
I know the right thing would be to catch them all, treat in copper, and go fallow. It may be the right answer, but I don't know if that's the best answer in this situation. I caught both hawk and tusk within hours of first seeing the spots (spots appeared overnight and they were caught first thing in am). I would imagine that the other fish would have shown signs by now...
Not ideal, but my plan is to wait it out for the entire treatment and see if any of the other inhabitants show signs. If so, then yes, I will pull them all and treat. A gamble - yes, that's for sure; but a calculated gamble at least... I run a large UV 24/7 at a flow for parasites and have done so since tank started, so I'm hoping that it will keep things at bay.

 

[tgrick]

I'm not a big fan of raising the temperature. Some people do it I do not. In fact, I like to go cooler. When you move to a higher temp the O2 level drops. I'm not sure 2 degrees is a big deal but I like lower temps with copper.

 

[tgrick]

Thanks to all for your advice and kind words!
Temp is set 79-80. I'll definitely bump that up a bit.

tgrick: Thanks for the insights. Yes, copper was raised slowly over 48 hrs. 1/2 day one, and 1/2 day 2.
That's what I was thinking as well. Go for 10-14 days with copper and transfer to a completely new and clean tank, similar to a TTM process, but having treated with copper for the first 10-14 days. I was torn as to whether I should risk pulling him out of copper in hopes that he eats, or risking him through the complete process. No clear answer, that's for sure. Appreciate your recommendation.

Regarding the DT... I hear you loud and clear. I would definitely go fallow, but unfortunately, with 300# of rock and 2 sand digging fish (watchman goby and pearly jawfish), I'm betting it's not possible. I'm confident I can catch my other fish, but those 2 will likely be quite a challenge.
Interestingly, I have 5 tangs (naso, yellow, tomini, djardini, and gem) all of which are completely healthy and doing great. So are the 2 dwarf angels, disco blennie, lamarck angel and emperor angel; other than the hawk and tusk, no fish are showing no signs of anything. No spots or any other signs, including rubbing, scratching, flashing, yawning, or just acting funny. It's been 6 days without any signs...
I know the right thing would be to catch them all, treat in copper, and go fallow. It may be the right answer, but I don't know if that's the best answer in this situation. I caught both hawk and tusk within hours of first seeing the spots (spots appeared overnight and they were caught first thing in am). I would imagine that the other fish would have shown signs by now...
Not ideal, but my plan is to wait it out for the entire treatment and see if any of the other inhabitants show signs. If so, then yes, I will pull them all and treat. A gamble - yes, that's for sure; but a calculated gamble at least... I run a large UV 24/7 at a flow for parasites and have done so since tank started, so I'm hoping that it will keep things at bay.

If that's the case you are going to manage ick and just live with it. That usually works when the fish are happy and well fed. Let us know what you do and good luck!

 

[jassermd]

Thanks! Really appreciate you taking the time to share your recommendations. Confirmed my thinking...

Unfortunately, I wish I knew then what I know now... The ich thing is a sore subject. I've been dealing with it since the tank was set up. If you read the post I shared about the issues I had with the tank service company, it won't be of any surprise as to why I'm dealing with this.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks vetteguy!
I’m running an air stone already. I don’t use API for anything! I checked with Red Sea and it was near zero. No labored breathing at all.
Here’s a pic of him the first day with before he was moved to his own tank.

The Harlequin is in his own 20g same set up and is eating like a champ.

Just an observation - something other than copper is affecting the hawk fish; they aren’t sensitive to it. Plus harlequins HATE being in a bare QT and can be sensitive to copper, so if that fish is eating, the hawk must have some other issue….not sure what though. They get flukes, but the FW dip should have given some relief.
Jay

 

[jassermd]

Thanks Jay!
That's my concern. I did the freshwater dip mainly to get a head start on the ich and ensure there weren't any flukes. I didn't see anything... I'm willing to pull him from copper if needed, but would prefer not to if I can get him to eat. He was very well up until he went into the QT tank. (Used a trap with mysis to catch him...)

What would you recommend for the harlequin? He's eating well (2x day, squid, mysis, and brine). Not sure what I could add to make it more hospitable... He paces a lot but that's been his nature in the DT.

Here's a pic of the tusk set up and a pic of the hawkfish this am. Tusk is in a 20g and hawk is in a 10g.


Any and all suggestions or recommendations are greatly appreciated!
Thank you!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay!
That's my concern. I did the freshwater dip mainly to get a head start on the ich and ensure there weren't any flukes. I didn't see anything... I'm willing to pull him from copper if needed, but would prefer not to if I can get him to eat. He was very well up until he went into the QT tank. (Used a trap with mysis to catch him...)

What would you recommend for the harlequin? He's eating well (2x day, squid, mysis, and brine). Not sure what I could add to make it more hospitable... He paces a lot but that's been his nature in the DT.

Here's a pic of the tusk set up and a pic of the hawkfish this am. Tusk is in a 20g and hawk is in a 10g.


Any and all suggestions or recommendations are greatly appreciated!
Thank you!

Oh - I see they are in different tanks now, the first shot showed them together. Is there any water quality parameter that is different between these two tanks?

Jay

 

[jassermd]

Yeah… I had to hold them together until the 20g was ready.
The tanks were set up exactly the same and have the same water and salt mix.
Salinity is 1.025 in both tanks. Temp is same as well 78-79. I haven’t measured alk or other parameters but can do so easily.
Copper in both tanks is 2.40-2.50 and has been since reaching therapeutic level on Sunday.
I tried feeding again this am. Hawk has no interest in food what so ever. I tried brine and mysis and a live ghost shrimp. Didn’t even move or look at the food.
Tusk on the other hand ate a clam, squid and several shrimp.
Is it ok for me to add some fake plastic rock like structure to give him some comfort and perching places?
Should I keep the course or pull him out of copper is the big question…

 

[Sharkbait19]

My qt has pvc and one of the African cichlid rocks (basically a rock with a hole in it). There hasn’t been a single fish that doesn’t like that cave.

 

[jassermd]

Thanks!
Still hasn't eaten a bite... Did a water change (dosed w/ copper) this afternoon after feeding time.
All day, he's been hiding in the corner, which is completely uncharacteristic for him.
No heavy or labored breathing, no signs of any external injury, infection or otherwise. Just completely uninterested in food...

I picked up a fake plastic rock thing and am using that instead of PVC. Hoping the structure will help him settle in a bit...