Yup! ANOTHER Ammonia thread...

[Dan_P]

I've been perplexed on how my pico tank ammonia level never seems to drop despite large water changes and adding bacteria. This is an already established tank that was move almost a week ago.

I would assume that doing a 50% water change should have a noticeable impact on levels. I've done enough changes this week to easily change all the water almost twice with no effect on Ammonia levels.

So I investigated further.

Here is the test for the 5G pico for reference:

I tested the RO water I use for my ATO. This is Seapora RO, which tested at 6 TDS, by the way:

So far so good. Now on to the RO water I use to mix my saltwater. This is Culligan RO that tests at 1 TDS:

Okay... on to the mixed saltwater I'm using for my water changes:

So, I've been doing water changes to drop ammonia by adding ammonia!! What the?! This was mixed in a brand new Brute 20G container that was cleaned and rinse very well before use. The pump used to mix was ran in RO for a few minutes before adding to the fresh RO in the Brute and salt used was Aquavitro Salinity. Could that salt have ammonia?

I have a different salt type, Red Sea I believe, that I will be using to mix up a brand new batch with very soon.

Is there any explanation for this? Does premixed salt "age" and produce ammonia? The bin has always had its lid on when I'm not taking water and there is clearly nothing dead in it.

I'm more confused now than ever.

What is the pH of your system?

This is certainly different! Usually an API ammonia test user will be in doubt about the test results being 0 ppm or 0.25 ppm. You have what looks like a positive test for ammonia in your system and salt mix. My Instant Ocean has tenths of a ppm on ammonia and maybe a tenth of a ppm of nitrite. Your test shows a boat load.

I have been thinking about ways the test could be fooled. Maybe a goofy high level of an amino acid would give a false positive.

If your tank inhabitants are fine AND if there is ammonia present, the pH of the system must be low enough to suppress most of the NH4+ from being converted to NH3, the toxic version of the molecule.

 

[KeMiKiLL]

pH is testing at 8.0 with color test at the moment.

 

[Dan_P]

pH is testing at 8.0 with color test at the moment.

Thanks.

The table from the Red Sea nitrite/nitrate test kit shows what from of the total ammonia is the amount NH3 in the water. Depending on the water temperature, 3.8-7.0% of the total ammonia measurement is NH3.

When I went back to look at your posted test results, I noticed the blue rather than blue-green color. I couldn’t confidently match the color. This color is unusual but occasionally observed. I wonder.

Anyway, you can see that at lower pH’s you might be able to ”get away” with ammonia being present.

Any update on the situation?

 

[brandon429]

Dan that might be a neat way of benchmarking seneye machines for nh3 accuracy


get one running, logged in the norm range, then lower pH a bit and watch for the nh3 spike.
seneye doesn't have a counterpart meter anymore to benchmark against like mindstream used to be/ so ways to prove its accuracy seem limited to patterning tank to tank and some comparisons with api and red sea but no digital-to-digital proofing off a given sample ive seen

that above seems like a neat way to test its link to known chemistry ratios.

 

[KeMiKiLL]

Thanks.

The table from the Red Sea nitrite/nitrate test kit shows what from of the total ammonia is the amount NH3 in the water. Depending on the water temperature, 3.8-7.0% of the total ammonia measurement is NH3.

When I went back to look at your posted test results, I noticed the blue rather than blue-green color. I couldn’t confidently match the color. This color is unusual but occasionally observed. I wonder.

Anyway, you can see that at lower pH’s you might be able to ”get away” with ammonia being present.

Any update on the situation?

Last night I tossed my premixed Aquavitro Salinity salt water, which was starting to have an odd smell, and cleaned the Brute container out very well.
I then mixed up some fresh Red Sea Coral Pro. Testing showed trace ammonia. I did a 50% water change anyway. This morning - no ammonia on any test.

 

[brandon429]

hey when does that seneye arrive

 

[KeMiKiLL]

hey when does that seneye arrive

Tracking says, "The shipper has notified us of this package...". :\

 

[brandon429]

ok ill quit fanning on it from over here for a couple hours then heh

 

[brandon429]

once its calibrated on a known reef pls use it to get a human baseline smell detection limit off any given sample of water...reason being, we know its possible to use how the water smells in tracking nh3 control ability (though we wouldn't know the amount in the sample) at least for certain max limits, and it would be nice to have a baseline on the barest amount of nh3 an average person can smell just above the water line.


about ten thousand people as we speak feel their ammonia is uncontrolled. their water is clean, it doesn't smell...we'd be closing in on data testing that claim with this smell baseline option. eventually someone is just going to tell me to get my own seneye/stop soliciting tests but whats the harm in asking

conversely, when people have a tank crash like a multi fish loss, things get cloudy and it smells... we think there's a strong tie actually/legit

another poster got a gallon of 35% peroxide accidentally added, wiped the tank, it smelled bad again and had the clouding accompany

its all for pattern testing.

 

[Dan_P]

Last night I tossed my premixed Aquavitro Salinity salt water, which was starting to have an odd smell, and cleaned the Brute container out very well.
I then mixed up some fresh Red Sea Coral Pro. Testing showed trace ammonia. I did a 50% water change anyway. This morning - no ammonia on any test.

Nice work!

 

[Dan_P]

Dan that might be a neat way of benchmarking seneye machines for nh3 accuracy


get one running, logged in the norm range, then lower pH a bit and watch for the nh3 spike.
seneye doesn't have a counterpart meter anymore to benchmark against like mindstream used to be/ so ways to prove its accuracy seem limited to patterning tank to tank and some comparisons with api and red sea but no digital-to-digital proofing off a given sample ive seen

that above seems like a neat way to test its link to known chemistry ratios.

Good point Brandon!

We never paid attention to the pH vs Seneye reading. If pH is bobbing up and down but ammonia reading is rock steady, we should question the Seneye capability

 

[brandon429]

I would not have known that link if you didn't point it out, downside of never owning an ammonia kit/seeing its foldouts

**further relay

I bet this can be math'd: if we never see anyones reef range outside of .002-.009 on a post-cycle reef on seneye, then we ought to be able to upscale the known pH shift from that, and see if its common for reefs. or diurnally affected like we'd expect between light and dark periods-seneye machines keep logs and about twenty of my friends would gladly post them if we needed it. ph trend logs along with the nh3 Ill post that now for Ingchr to read about, so much data has he

 

[KeMiKiLL]

once its calibrated on a known reef pls use it to get a human baseline smell detection limit off any given sample of water...reason being, we know its possible to use how the water smells in tracking nh3 control ability (though we wouldn't know the amount in the sample) at least for certain max limits, and it would be nice to have a baseline on the barest amount of nh3 an average person can smell just above the water line.


about ten thousand people as we speak feel their ammonia is uncontrolled. their water is clean, it doesn't smell...we'd be closing in on data testing that claim with this smell baseline option. eventually someone is just going to tell me to get my own seneye/stop soliciting tests but whats the harm in asking

conversely, when people have a tank crash like a multi fish loss, things get cloudy and it smells... we think there's a strong tie actually/legit

another poster got a gallon of 35% peroxide accidentally added, wiped the tank, it smelled bad again and had the clouding accompany

its all for pattern testing.

Gah! I should have kept some of that smelly water!

 

[brandon429]

One of these days when it’s all up and running you could take a sample of water and drops of ammonium chloride and drive up to the classic 2 ppm starting dose everyone defaults to. that alone would be a neat baseline and I predict a person can smell that without a test, it‘ll be neat to see if that’s true.


the extrapolation might then be: stuck cycle thread/ api says 2 ppm or five, holding. No smell= misread on the test


google says humans can detect down to hundredths ppm by smell in drinking water, so tenths level test should be sniffable

 

[Righteous]

Everything in pico tanks is faster, so it’s not at all surprising that your ammonia could have been high from the salt mix, and then lower quickly as well. If you changed out 50% of your water with 4ppm ammonia, and then again the next day; that’s going to raise the ammonia in the tank significantly, even if some of it gets processed out

But the upside is that you can change out 50% with 0.2ppm ammonia and it’s going to drop very fast, and then your tank can use the rest as it drops.

I don’t think most people will have had experience with a 5 gallon and realize the challenge. I started with a 10 gallon. They are double edge swords in that you can manage them easily with water changes, and take a minute to clean the whole thing. But when something swings, it’s swings hard and fast!

Hopefully you solved your issue and things take off!

 

[KeMiKiLL]

Everything in pico tanks is faster, so it’s not at all surprising that your ammonia could have been high from the salt mix, and then lower quickly as well. If you changed out 50% of your water with 4ppm ammonia, and then again the next day; that’s going to raise the ammonia in the tank significantly, even if some of it gets processed out

But the upside is that you can change out 50% with 0.2ppm ammonia and it’s going to drop very fast, and then your tank can use the rest as it drops.

I don’t think most people will have had experience with a 5 gallon and realize the challenge. I started with a 10 gallon. They are double edge swords in that you can manage them easily with water changes, and take a minute to clean the whole thing. But when something swings, it’s swings hard and fast!

Hopefully you solved your issue and things take off!

Absolutely! This tank has more tech on it to monitor and maintain stability than my larger one (granted, the other one is still in cycle) because things can go south so much faster with such a small water volume. I've considered upgrading even to an Evo 13.5. With there being approximately 3 gallons of water in this 5g after rock and substrate is accounted for, the 13.5 is nearly 4 times the water volume but would still look nice on a nightstand.

Everything seems great right now. I added a tiny frogspawn and red polyp last night and those are opened right up and happy this morning. The original GSP and Zoas are still closed up tight but I've read that they can take a very long time to open and nothing looks dead.