Ammonia in Red Sea Coral Pro? & ammonia issue in established tank.

[TilleysReef]

I had an issue with a reef tank, and was chasing down the cause of high ammonia, when during the process of testing everything, I checked a fresh sample of RO mixed with CP in a glass container. I was surprised to see that the reading on the Hanna was 0.1

To follow that up, I tested both the tap water, as well as the RO just in case there was any possibility of tap bypassing a membrane, both read 0.00

I mixed the CP again with the just tested 0.00 RO, and it came out at 0.08 and I verified all these tests with another traditional ammonia test kit.

Needless to say, I am confused why there is any ammonia at all in the CP? This doesn't seem normal. I have never purchased CP before, and haven't seen this in Reef Crystals, but maybe I haven't checked immediately after mixing before and was just converted to nitrates.

This came about because I had added a new tank which got a mild case of ich. I fed heavy, and all was well in the world. I did a water change making the move to CP from Reef Crystals, to experiment and see if this could help me lower my dosing or start me off closer to where I want to be. After the tang recovered, I started doing nopox at about 1/2 the dose recommended for the 100gallon aquarium I have.

Everything still going good, at this point, any algae from the overfeeding receeded. But I was starting to notice some slight bleaching in my SPS. I Tested everything (I also have a Neptune Trident) and everything was spot on. On a whim I decided to test ammonia with my API kit, showed what looked like something but it was hard for me to believe so initially I disregarded it...but the corals got worse. I went out immediately and got the Hanna so I could accurately check ammonia. After what seems like 10 hours of testing any combination of sources for the ammonia, I know for sure the CP has ammonia in it. I did a water 50% water change and ammonia still was reading 0.2 on the Hanna, down from 0.22

I am at a complete loss here. I had a brand new small chromis die a few weeks ago (was weak and my tang stressed him), I suppose its possible he is wedged in a rock somewhere, but I would think that the crabs would have eaten him, and any ammonia from that little fish could be handled by bacteria.

I have seen the few posts about mystery ammonia, but this tank has been in this same room with no issues for years. Any feedback/comments/suggestions would be really helpful because I am not really super interested in taking apart my rocks, but I certainly am not opposed to it.

Currently, my idea was to do another +50% water change with reef crystals which should bring the ammonia down to a <0.10 safe level, then monitor to see if it decreases or increases. I am not sure this is the best path, but at this point I am not sure what to do other than a 100% water change. Thank in advance!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Salt mixes typically have a little ammonia in them, and 0.1 ppm total ammonia is no concern.

0.2 ppm total ammonia is not going to kill fish. I'd look for other explanations.

 

[brandon429]

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Garf]

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

Are you saying @Randy Holmes-Farley is mistaken, that it's a misread because not many folks have a seneye?

 

[brandon429]

@TilleysReef

would you pls post a full tank picture. that's the proof we use in the thread to discern systems that have lost ammonia control after having it prior, and ones that haven't lost it but are using test kits known to vary wildly in both accuracy and interpretation of results

 

[Spare time]

Are you saying @Randy Holmes-Farley is mistaken, that it's a misread because not many folks have a seneye?

All hail the divine Seneye sent from the gods lol

 

[Garf]

nice baiting attempt lol

lemme see some work you have done with reef tank ammonia, got any work links? any themes in reefing you've noticed, collated, used in troubleshooting we can see?

if you don't have any, how about linking us a seneye owner who felt their reef couldn't control ammonia

That's interesting, you mention baiting in a link from that link you posted, as you know, I read them.

I certainly appear to have zero detectable ammonia in my Tropic Marin Classic mix (I tested it with a calibrated solution against API and a modified Hanna checker test using API consumables). The rest of your requests have absolutely nothing to do with finding ammonia in newly mixed saltwater.

 

[Dburr1014]

Are you saying @Randy Holmes-Farley is mistaken, that it's a misread because not many folks have a seneye?

I didn't see that at all. He even thumbs up Randy's post.
I believe Brandon was simply saying, yes, ammonia is in our systems even though we don't think so. That, and adding fresh mixed salt is the culprit but behold, the system handled it and shut it down.

"Why so serious?" as the joker said

 

[TilleysReef]

A week ago:

Today:

Thank for your help guys. (The zoas and gonis were more open just after the 50% water change and are now closed again.)

 

[brandon429]

this thread and the others titled like it/collected above as concerned ammonia misreads/are a fascinating study into how we've been trained as reef aquarists in my opinion.


there's conflict because there's evolution underway in level detection + acceptable levels of cycling parameters. reefers in that thread above ascribe to the old method or were trained that way: if ammonia isn't zero per any test kit in your display, your cycle is in process of crashing or undoing and you'd better take action. that's why their thread titles are about what a test kits says vs something happening in the tank we'd see in pics.

 

[brandon429]

I just saw your tank pic: that tank cannot fail to control it's ammonia given normal running conditions/circulation and heat etc and if you didn't run ammonia and nitrite on that tank again you'd save yourself a decent headache


any levels common salts mix up to regarding ammonia is ok, any range they present from none to some is ok

fish disease management, fallow and qt habits and choices are the single most impactful things you could implement to keep that tank running nicely. I thought Randy's post where he advised to look elsewhere for cause was spot on.

 

[TilleysReef]

this thread and the others titled like it/collected above as concerned ammonia misreads/are a fascinating study into how we've been trained as reef aquarists in my opinion.


there's conflict because there's evolution underway in level detection + acceptable levels of cycling parameters. reefers in that thread above ascribe to the old method or were trained that way: if ammonia isn't zero per any test kit in your display, your cycle is in process of crashing or undoing and you'd better take action. that's why their thread titles are about what a test kits says vs something happening in the tank we'd see in pics.

More like, I tested everything else first, and it's the only conclusion I arrived at, and was surprised to find ammonia in CP.

So in your opinion, the overfeeding was the cause of this ammonia buildup? I have a large skimmer, probably bigger than is needed for this tank. While appreciate your overall comments on my bad management practices I subscribe more to the Paul B method, I have extremely healthy fish and have accepted that not all are strong. I have a UV which runs 24/7 and aside from a new fish getting ick (like the chromis that died), I have never had a fish health issue.

Do you have any suggestions that could help me at this moment, rather than a few months ago?

 

[brandon429]

I claim there was no ammonia buildup and that it would take a $190 machine to see if there was one, the type of test kit you own caused you to have to guess at the max safe levels of ammonia.

people who own seneye machines routinely post the finite tiny increases in free ammonia that happen after feeding events of any size; those same machines show about 5 mins until the system rebalances ammonia back to the running steady state. your kit cannot do any of that, and, don't go paying for a seneye unless you just want to use it to reinforce already known rules of reef tank cycling.

if you simply do not run any ammonia kits ever again on that display you'll be better off, it allows you to aim concern into the areas where there could be a problem. that tank above can't have an ammonia problem due to factors present in the picture + the stated timeframe your tank has already been running with fish in it. testing for ammonia can't help you in any way so far.

if you need ammonia reading for qt, get a seachem alert badge. they can still misread but not as often imo

 

[TilleysReef]

Aside from ignoring the only possibility of a cause I have found, do you have any suggestions on what I should do other than let everything die while I wait it out.

 

[Dburr1014]

I don't think coral is bleaching from ammonia.
I also don't think everything is going to die.

Can you list all of your parameters that you know or have been tested lately.

Did I miss your tank size?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Aside from ignoring the only possibility of a cause I have found, do you have any suggestions on what I should do other than let everything die while I wait it out.

You read my post and just decided to ignore it?

 

[TilleysReef]

I don't think coral is bleaching from ammonia.
I also don't think everything is going to die.

Can you list all of your parameters that you know or have been tested lately.

Did I miss your tank size?

Salinity 1.026
Nitrates and nitrites and phosphates near 0
Temp: 79°F
Alk: 11.9
Calcium: 476
pH: 7.9 -- it always stays between 7.6-7.9 because I run an aragonite sand bed

 

[Dburr1014]

Nitrates and nitrites and phosphates near 0

pH: 7.9 -- it always stays between 7.6-7.9 because I run an aragonite sand bed

Not good.
Feed heavy and get the numbers up.

Are you sure about ph numbers?

 

[TilleysReef]

You read my post and just decided to ignore it?

Not sure why you have that assumption, I'm just looking for answers and gathering info as much as possible to figure out the root cause of this issue during analysis of the problem.

I understand you say ammonia isn't the issue. I would tend to agree, which is why it was the last thing I even reluctantly tested. I am not saying ammonia is or isn't the issue. I'm just trying to figure out what's going on with my tank whatever it is.

 

[TilleysReef]

Not good.
Feed heavy and get the numbers up.

Are you sure about ph numbers?

This is how it always is. Generally I run a low nutrient tank, and manually feed and broadcast feed the corals. These numbers haven't changed during the entire time the corals have been growing.