Yup! ANOTHER Ammonia thread...

[KeMiKiLL]

I've been perplexed on how my pico tank ammonia level never seems to drop despite large water changes and adding bacteria. This is an already established tank that was move almost a week ago.

I would assume that doing a 50% water change should have a noticeable impact on levels. I've done enough changes this week to easily change all the water almost twice with no effect on Ammonia levels.

So I investigated further.

Here is the test for the 5G pico for reference:

I tested the RO water I use for my ATO. This is Seapora RO, which tested at 6 TDS, by the way:

So far so good. Now on to the RO water I use to mix my saltwater. This is Culligan RO that tests at 1 TDS:

Okay... on to the mixed saltwater I'm using for my water changes:

So, I've been doing water changes to drop ammonia by adding ammonia!! What the?! This was mixed in a brand new Brute 20G container that was cleaned and rinse very well before use. The pump used to mix was ran in RO for a few minutes before adding to the fresh RO in the Brute and salt used was Aquavitro Salinity. Could that salt have ammonia?

I have a different salt type, Red Sea I believe, that I will be using to mix up a brand new batch with very soon.

Is there any explanation for this? Does premixed salt "age" and produce ammonia? The bin has always had its lid on when I'm not taking water and there is clearly nothing dead in it.

I'm more confused now than ever.

 

[Righteous]

Yes... this is a thing with some salt mixes. It generally comes from impurties:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php#5

 

[taricha]

That's interesting. I've found in the ballpark of ~0.5 ppm ammonia in my Instant Ocean, but I thought it was anomaly (old bag etc). So you found even higher.

I wonder if we checked these weirdly high total ammonia numbers with a test for Free Ammonia (NH3 specifically) like seachem disks, would we find any?
I mean that maybe this ammonia in the salt mix is bound/complexed and not a threat. If so, it would not show up on free ammonia, but would still show up in this total ammonia type test (API, Red Sea).

 

[brandon429]

This is a false read (your main display has no ammonia issue)

You won't know your details until seneye comes into play and is tuned. Testing ro and getting blank means nothing, there's no nitrification to over report. You're dealing in api any way you slice it but that'll change soon when fed ex shows up

Salts mixing up with some free ammonia is known. Five minutes after adding to your reef it's in thousandths ppm

 

[brandon429]

For proof your main tank had and has no free ammonia post current full tank shot.

Has api caused anyone else endless confusion on google key term searches/ how widespread can you find the issue to be in all reef forums

 

[brandon429]

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

That explains your issue easily and with repeat examples several

There's also an ammonia dosing study thread in there using seneye

Key patterns: api causes alarm, seneye fixes it. You aren't able to get the relief you want until the $250 tester gets delivered

 

[KeMiKiLL]

This is a false read (your main display has no ammonia issue)

You won't know your details until seneye comes into play and is tuned. Testing ro and getting blank means nothing, there's no nitrification to over report. You're dealing in api any way you slice it but that'll change soon when fed ex shows up

Salts mixing up with some free ammonia is known. Five minutes after adding to your reef it's in thousandths ppm

I think it has to be an error but there must be something there. If there was truly nothing and the test were showing ammonia with none present, the RO test should have shown an ammonia level too. All CUC and corals have been fine though.

I'm definitely excited for my Seneye to arrive but wondering if I should throw Ina Seachem disc as well to check free ammonia.

Ammonia seems to be dominating my mind these days.

 

[KeMiKiLL]

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

That explains your issue easily and with repeat examples several

There's also an ammonia dosing study thread in there using seneye

Key patterns: api causes alarm, seneye fixes it. You aren't able to get the relief you want until the $250 tester gets delivered

Very true!

 

[brandon429]

This will be the newest update to aquarium science in my opinion: the complete nonvariability of nh3 control outside of thousandths ppm in any post- cycle reef

or any rip cleaned one for that matter...


Api over reports known safe nitrification rates on most testers, on some it doesn't and works right. Those guys wrote all the cycling rules... the good testers

so those with issue testers were left buying bottle bac over and over

 

[Arabyps]

There have been posts "ad nauseam" about false readings from API test kits. IMO I suggest changing to Salifert and for nitrate Nyos. Stop trying to make critical decisions with suspect test data.

 

[brandon429]

and don't forget tan conversion on those readings or it will look orders worse than truth


its rare for someone to just drop cash on a seneye to get to the heart of the matter, await that one.

a recent seneye post found the marker line on some vials to be very far off, so all reagents were concentrating or diluting and the reference card useless.

that doesn't mean some can't wield complete lab experiments with API yes they can


just not enough to comprise the google results, they're all like this one.

 

[brandon429]

this matter isn't closed by the way, you're smack in the middle of a reefing mystery that affects thousands of posters. at least one daily on every forum, all days. maybe 4x a day on some.

if reef tanks do range in ammonia control outside of thousandths ppm post-cycle, in a display tank (because that has lots of surface area vs qt tanks which are bare) then it means most/all of these api readings are valid and they just aren't equals due to variables in each reef.


but

if all post-cycle displays run in the thousandths ppm regardless of size and accounting for differences in live rock porosity etc, sand vs no sand, then that means something streamlines us all and it accounts for why your lysmata shrimp has not died, the weakest animal we keep pretty much.

plus its a pico, concentrated, the best ammonia test of them all. you have passing ammonia levels, not failed ones we can see pretty soon if that's correct.

again on calibration: when you initially install the seneye it reports any wild number. you must trim it for days. soak slides. absolutely prove using normal reef tank water the device calibrates in the range of .002-.009 and can't just stick at .001

on a working seneye, the reading changes by the minute between .002-.009 nobody has a stuck number, this is a dynamic active conversion going on, tuned well the seneye will show it.

your logs won't show one single number holding, they'll show per-minute changes in levels but always in the thousandths, that's what it takes to tune correctly.

once you have a proven seneye, they keep digital logs of your readings on file, shown to spec on a running reef correctly you can use it to solve this tank.

You can't tune the seneye on this tank, though.

 

[brandon429]

we need the full tank shot if possible. we always need to see the effects of free ammonia expressed as visuals not just test kits, we're looking for cloudy water, it'll smell bad, no open corals and animals hovering near doom. exactly like what happens when an animal loses its total kidney function and nh3 spikes up two hundred times normal. we can see visually something is amiss in the organism even before the good meter arrives.

In any free ammonia post, about 98% of the readers agree there is free ammonia, so your post is working with an amazingly strong gradient betting against the seneye, what a strong discovery coming up regardless of the finding.

 

[brandon429]

Tank not cycling using Dr Tims the One and Only

I am pretty new to saltwater tanks and I seek your advice. About a week and a half ago I started the cycling proces for my newly set up tank by dosing a bottle of Dr Tims the One and Only Nitrifying bacteria. I followed all the steps and I am a bit worried about the results. Day 1: I added the...

www.reef2reef.com

look what api misreads are doing there, selling more bottle bac.

his first round will work, don't use api use another method and the current setup will be ready in three days. all he has to do is change his water out fully after about fourteen days of wait, that will cover it just fine.

the new water will test fine on digital readouts, because its new-who knows what api will still show even in new water like you've stated. the base filtration layer will be functional, underneath, regardless of what api shows now, that's why your system is not crashing though the tests misread and make us think its coming every minute.

 

[KeMiKiLL]

There have been posts "ad nauseam" about false readings from API test kits. IMO I suggest changing to Salifert and for nitrate Nyos. Stop trying to make critical decisions with suspect test data.

I have two kits from each test from Salifert too. The results, although reading at a lower level, are no better. Salifert shows my Ammonia results anywhere from 0.50 ppm to 1.5 ppm and there are many hobbyists who specifically state that they prefer API for Ammonia only since Salifert appears to only indicate when Ammonia is at .5 or greater.

Ultimately, this isn't a Salifert vs. API thread opinion thread. It was more of a thread to bring awareness to the fact that despite best efforts to correct an issue, you can easily be chasing your tail based on assumptions. Mine, for example, being that mixing clean water with new salt wouldn't be dosing Ammonia to my tanks on a water change. Live and learn. I'll be testing newly mixed water from now on, that's for sure.

 

[KeMiKiLL]

we need the full tank shot if possible. we always need to see the effects of free ammonia expressed as visuals not just test kits, we're looking for cloudy water, it'll smell bad, no open corals and animals hovering near doom. exactly like what happens when an animal loses its total kidney function and nh3 spikes up two hundred times normal. we can see visually something is amiss in the organism even before the good meter arrives.

In any free ammonia post, about 98% of the readers agree there is free ammonia, so your post is working with an amazingly strong gradient betting against the seneye, what a strong discovery coming up regardless of the finding.

My Shrimp is hanging out in his favorite spot and the snails and crabs are doing their thing. They like to settle near the corals for the most part but they are all alive. Corals are closed up for the most part - trumpet, zoas, and GSP. The toadstool leather shows small green spots occasionally but no real extension and the hammer looks happy as hell about it all.

 

[Righteous]

How often have you been changing water?

Don’t change water for at least a week and test again. I’d just stop changing water for now as a precaution.

 

[Righteous]

And btw... it’s probably not the end of the world as long as stuff seems healthy. I dose ammonia on a regular basis on purpose. But with current test kits it can be hard to tell exactly what the levels are... and if you were changing water like every day, then you could be causing levels to rise too quick if it’s really a salt mix problem.

So take some precautions and watch your livestock closely.

 

[KeMiKiLL]

I

How often have you been changing water?

Don’t change water for at least a week and test again. I’d just stop changing water for now as a precaution.

Was doing 1-1.5 gallons a day for a few days but haven't done anything in a couple of days. Everything looks fine.

I was planning on mixing new salt with the Red Sea salt I have, testing it, and if all looked well, doing a 1.5 gallon change to see if things change at all. This is a 5 gallon pico, so frequent, small, water changes are normal anyway for nutrient export.

 

[Righteous]

Yeah... so then it could be building up in a pico quicker. Definitely check the new salt before and after a change